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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 5:18:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subjeremy2

I don't know if you have ever heard of Occam's razor, basically put it says that given two explanations for something the simplest is the most likely to be correct

Actually this is the common misstatemment of Occam's Razor. OR is not "predictive" in the sense that it guides a choice between two competing theories toward the simpler one. There are numerous examples of scientific theories that have grown in complexity.

OR is more a burden of proof argument....show me WHY all of those elements of Theory A are needed to explain a particular phenomenon when Theory B also explains it and is simpler.

There are statistical reasons why nature would prefer "simplicity", but that is a by-product of, not a demand for, parsimony.

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and harken
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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 5:26:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Please calm down, Ms Constanze.

The notion you propose that those who do not believe are simply "believers" of another sort will not go over well with some, and it might be better if you just re-think how to state your essentially valid and admirable take on the affair. You can't use a terminology provided by one belief system to apply across the board.

Exactly. "Belief" is far too subjective a word and must be precisely used in any epistemological discussion. In its most common use, "conviction or acceptance without evidential basis", "belief" is inappropriately applied to atheism.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Edwynn)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 10:00:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Ya said last I heard it it was over land..It just so happened that it was over Holy Land which I believe it was first started over.

You glitched over that pretty tidbit and now want to sidestep your way through history. As often you do about a lot of things.

http://www.history.com/images/media/pdf/Crusades_Study_Guide.pdf

Don't be an idiot.

From your own source

Though these wars always carried elements of religious conflict, they were chiefly battles
to establish territorial control of these highly coveted lands. Through viewing the
Crescent and the Cross, students will be able to build their knowledge of this vital era in
world history and will discover the complex reasons why so many millions of people
were willing to give their lives in the service of these wars.

Now, for the mirad f reasons behind so many willing to fight in the crusades...

http://edtech.suhsd.k12.ca.us/inprogress/hm/dmatzel/crusades.pdf

Simple but accurate.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 10:03:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
That claim has already been made... and debunked... thank you very much... by an atheist no less.

Suddenly, the reasoning behind your statement that you've seen no evidence atheists are intelligent becomes clear ...

If you are going to quote me, please quote me completely. I never said atheists are not intelligent. In fact, a fantastic history professor i had in college was an atheist. Extremely intelligent and patient.

What i did say was i have yet to see the intelligence level spoken about reflected on these boards.

Do keep those straight.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/26/2010 10:04:02 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RapierFugue)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 10:41:12 PM

Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Ya said last I heard it it was over land..It just so happened that it was over Holy Land which I believe it was first started over.

You glitched over that pretty tidbit and now want to sidestep your way through history. As often you do about a lot of things.

http://www.history.com/images/media/pdf/Crusades_Study_Guide.pdf

Don't be an idiot.

From your own source

Though these wars always carried elements of religious conflict, they were chiefly battles
to establish territorial control of these highly coveted lands. Through viewing the
Crescent and the Cross, students will be able to build their knowledge of this vital era in
world history and will discover the complex reasons why so many millions of people
were willing to give their lives in the service of these wars.

Now, for the mirad f reasons behind so many willing to fight in the crusades...

http://edtech.suhsd.k12.ca.us/inprogress/hm/dmatzel/crusades.pdf

Simple but accurate.

What do you think caused them to be highly coveted lands? Why did so many different groups want this particular land? because of highly religious ties to it.

Of course power was what it was about..that's what all wars that I've ever seen were about but this particular one and the following ones were dripping with religious tones.

edited: Fuck, you weren't kidding when you said it was simple.

Better one I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#First_Crusade_1095.E2.80.931099

< Message edited by Icarys -- 11/26/2010 10:51:36 PM >

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(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 11:00:39 PM

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It is simple. The pope wanted personal power. The Muslims wanted power. 3000 christians had died. Perfect excuse for both sides to take up arms and fight. The crusades were about land, politics and power. Pure and simple. But, out of the three, the land was merely an excuse. Merchants also wanted more control.

Furthermore, Europe’s population was growing, its urban life was beginning to revive, and both long distance and local trade were gradually increasing. European human and economic resources could now support new enterprises on the scale of the Crusades. A growing population and more surplus wealth also meant greater demand for goods from elsewhere. European traders had always looked to the Mediterranean; now they sought greater control of the goods, routes, and profits. Thus worldly interests coincided with religious feelings about the Holy Land and the pope’s newfound ability to mobilize and focus a great enterprise.

http://history-world.org/crusades.htm

No where have i ever stated that the Catholic Church is a paragon of virtue. Far from it. Its corruption can only be matched by the government. But these so-called "holy wars" had deep roots in the power and greed realm... having nothing to do with religion and everything to do with personal gains.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/26/2010 11:01:23 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 1:56:24 AM

Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Just imagine me WITHOUT that to look forward to. Then you'd REALLY see Mr Angry.

A truly terrifying concept.

Like being savaged by a dead sheep, I shouldn't wonder

ETA: Your country pub weekend sounds lovely. Have a great time. Oh and, if that's Darcy&tD that posted the thing that got you hot under the collar (and I've no way of knowing if it is, coz if it is he/they have changed his/their posting name since last I was on CM) then that was, if I recall correctly, a thoughtful and humane poster. It could be someone else, but if so they're using a similar personal logo/avatar. Anyway, they certainly weren't the enemy the last I looked. Again, I realise, you are hardcore, take no prisoners, etc etc ... it's just you seem to react very "light-switch" when either a) your balls are full and/or b) you've had a bad week at work. I'm guessing it's the latter, as I'm sure your harem wouldn't leave you in such a state by choice.
Anyway, all I'm saying is he's maybe not the Evil you think he is. Or I'm wrong and ... actually even then he may still not be ... in any case, have a spiffy weekend and try not to get snippy with waiters because they'll only piss in your soup.

LOL uproariously!!! :)

Thank you, you have a good one too old fruit. (And yes, I mean that in the original 50's meaning, with no homosexual over/undertone whatsoever).

"Barman...please, a glass of whatever this fine gentleman likes, on my tab!"

(in reply to RapierFugue)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 2:30:11 AM

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
LOL uproariously!!! :)

Thank you, you have a good one too old fruit. (And yes, I mean that in the original 50's meaning, with no homosexual over/undertone whatsoever).

"Barman...please, a glass of whatever this fine gentleman likes, on my tab!"

There, that's better. See what a good night's sleep does for you?

Have a smashing weekend.

(in reply to Jaybeee)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 4:42:36 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Well if you don't mean what you write, I don't have any time for you. Keep your bonus, and shove it where you love it.

I don't like wasting time on the likes of you.

Goodness... how very 'christian' of you! What happened to all the love?

(shoved apparently).
Unlike yourself, I don't give up on people quite so easily... god doesn't either... see how that works?
You(generic) are limiting god by placing human ideals onto him... do you really believe he finds that OK - with all the teaching that Jesus gave and all the books written?
Can you imagine what life might be like if Jesus had no time for individuals or collectives, just because of what they wrote and second guessed people all the time?
You don't get into heaven, only on the works that you do - that is basic christian teaching. No amount of conversions, or kindness will get you into heaven. But (as is written) know Jesus and be in total acknowledgement (there is that word again) of your sin - which everyone does and is a sinner from when they are born (from a biblical standpoint) with genuine humility ... and it doesn't matter if you are a mass murderer, or a nun, your place is there with god if you can reach that state of humility. If people were not born sinful, then there would surely have been no need for Jesus?

The question, What do you think of atheists? to me, is flawed from the premise. You label someone, you negate them (Keirkgaard)... it's like strawman paradise from the minute you decide to answer the question, doesn't matter what label you stick in there instead of 'atheist'. Seriously, have people really become so afraid to be an individual that they are unable to present themselves as 'me'?

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Jaybeee)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 4:51:30 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
ETA: Your country pub weekend sounds lovely. Have a great time. Oh and, if that's Darcy&tD that posted the thing that got you hot under the collar (and I've no way of knowing if it is, coz if it is he/they have changed his/their posting name since last I was on CM) then that was, if I recall correctly, a thoughtful and humane poster. It could be someone else, but if so they're using a similar personal logo/avatar. Anyway, they certainly weren't the enemy the last I looked. Again, I realise, you are hardcore, take no prisoners, etc etc ... it's just you seem to react very "light-switch" when either a) your balls are full and/or b) you've had a bad week at work. I'm guessing it's the latter, as I'm sure your harem wouldn't leave you in such a state by choice.

Anyway, all I'm saying is he's maybe not the Evil you think he is. Or I'm wrong and ... actually even then he may still not be ... in any case, have a spiffy weekend and try not to get snippy with waiters because they'll only piss in your soup.

Hello Mr RF... yes you are correct it is us!
I am sure Master would delight in being thought of as evil...

... but as it was me posting - perish the thought!
Hope you are well. It was groovy to see you back posting again - it's always good to take time off but you are always missed!

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to RapierFugue)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 4:54:00 AM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Richard Dawkins answers his hate mail...
Don't see the fucking Pope or Jerry Falwell doing this, do you?

Actually when I was about 10, I wrote the Pope a letter saying "I resign from the Catholic Church".

Seriously.

I'm still waiting for a response, even an acknowledgement will do. Even if it's 20 years late. I'm beginning to think it's a bit rude but I'd hate to jump to conclusions .....

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/27/2010 5:10:18 AM >

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 5:01:34 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Far from it. Its corruption can only be matched by the government. But these so-called "holy wars" had deep roots in the power and greed realm... having nothing to do with religion and everything to do with personal gains.

I think it's all a bit irrelevant really. Not that war is irrelevant, but that arguing/discussing over what is and what isn't a holy war is (personal pov). Thing is... war is about gaining power and/or freedom - but those come with price tags attatched. If the land wasn't important in a way that helped to in someway sustain, then it wouldn't be worth the war... whether that is because of the culture and religious association on that land, or whether it's about it's fertility.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 5:14:01 AM

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
ETA: Your country pub weekend sounds lovely. Have a great time. Oh and, if that's Darcy&tD that posted the thing that got you hot under the collar (and I've no way of knowing if it is, coz if it is he/they have changed his/their posting name since last I was on CM) then that was, if I recall correctly, a thoughtful and humane poster. It could be someone else, but if so they're using a similar personal logo/avatar. Anyway, they certainly weren't the enemy the last I looked. Again, I realise, you are hardcore, take no prisoners, etc etc ... it's just you seem to react very "light-switch" when either a) your balls are full and/or b) you've had a bad week at work. I'm guessing it's the latter, as I'm sure your harem wouldn't leave you in such a state by choice.

Anyway, all I'm saying is he's maybe not the Evil you think he is. Or I'm wrong and ... actually even then he may still not be ... in any case, have a spiffy weekend and try not to get snippy with waiters because they'll only piss in your soup.

Hello Mr RF... yes you are correct it is us!
I am sure Master would delight in being thought of as evil... ... but as it was me posting - perish the thought!
Hope you are well. It was groovy to see you back posting again - it's always good to take time off but you are always missed!

Oh it is you two! That's put a smile on my face! My fave romantic story of getting-together-via-CM-ness

It was via CM wasn't it? My memory's a fucking joke these days I'm afraid. I recall you being apart for ages and then one of you moving a large distance? Or am I going senile? Or "all of the above" of course, that's always an option with me. Anyway, great to see it's you (and you)

I take it you're both well? And thank you for your kind words, they're most appreciated.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 5:18:30 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Oh it is you two! That's put a smile on my face! My fave romantic story of getting-together-via-CM-ness

It was via CM wasn't it? My memory's a fucking joke these days I'm afraid. I recall you being apart for ages and then one of you moving a large distance? Or am I going senile? Or "all of the above" of course, that's always an option with me. Anyway, great to see it's you (and you)

I take it you're both well? And thank you for your kind words, they're most appreciated.

Eek... online yes... CM no. But you are not senile and yes you are correct about the distance! We should really do the whole let's meet up thing sometime... we were in London last night having a fab dinner! Reminded me not to go anywhere near the capital again before christmas... it was so ultra busy!

Have a fabulous weekend! xxxxx

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to RapierFugue)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 5:33:26 AM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Far from it. Its corruption can only be matched by the government. But these so-called "holy wars" had deep roots in the power and greed realm... having nothing to do with religion and everything to do with personal gains.

The anthropologist Mary Douglas has an interesting take on the relationship between religion and power. Her idea is along these lines:
As primitive societies were being formed, people had to agree on a basic set of rules or laws. These laws were then attributed to deities in order to make them unchallengeable.
For Mary Douglas, religions are power systems, invented by humans to maintain and guarantee social stability and continuity.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/27/2010 5:36:07 AM >

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 5:35:55 AM

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Oh it is you two! That's put a smile on my face! My fave romantic story of getting-together-via-CM-ness

It was via CM wasn't it? My memory's a fucking joke these days I'm afraid. I recall you being apart for ages and then one of you moving a large distance? Or am I going senile? Or "all of the above" of course, that's always an option with me. Anyway, great to see it's you (and you)

I take it you're both well? And thank you for your kind words, they're most appreciated.

Eek... online yes... CM no. But you are not senile and yes you are correct about the distance! We should really do the whole let's meet up thing sometime... we were in London last night having a fab dinner! Reminded me not to go anywhere near the capital again before christmas... it was so ultra busy!

Ah yes, it is that. I live very close to the centre so it doesn't affect me, coz I'm already here, if you follow me

But yes, would love to meet up sometime. Somewhere not pricey though as my cash-flow has followed recent government trends

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
Have a fabulous weekend! xxxxx

I'll do my best

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 6:41:09 AM

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Far from it. Its corruption can only be matched by the government. But these so-called "holy wars" had deep roots in the power and greed realm... having nothing to do with religion and everything to do with personal gains.

The anthropologist Mary Douglas has an interesting take on the relationship between religion and power. Her idea is along these lines:
As primitive societies were being formed, people had to agree on a basic set of rules or laws. These laws were then attributed to deities in order to make them unchallengeable.
For Mary Douglas, religions are power systems, invented by humans to maintain and guarantee social stability and continuity.

So society used religion as a means to control the masses. Im not sure how we arent saying the same thing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 6:54:57 AM

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Far from it. Its corruption can only be matched by the government. But these so-called "holy wars" had deep roots in the power and greed realm... having nothing to do with religion and everything to do with personal gains.

The anthropologist Mary Douglas has an interesting take on the relationship between religion and power. Her idea is along these lines:
As primitive societies were being formed, people had to agree on a basic set of rules or laws. These laws were then attributed to deities in order to make them unchallengeable.
For Mary Douglas, religions are power systems, invented by humans to maintain and guarantee social stability and continuity.

I'd agree with that.

<thinks>

Where's my book deal?

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 7:36:59 AM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The anthropologist Mary Douglas has an interesting take on the relationship between religion and power. Her idea is along these lines:
As primitive societies were being formed, people had to agree on a basic set of rules or laws. These laws were then attributed to deities in order to make them unchallengeable.
For Mary Douglas, religions are power systems, invented by humans to maintain and guarantee social stability and continuity.

tazzygirl
So society used religion as a means to control the masses. Im not sure how we arent saying the same thing.

As I understand her work, Mary Douglas would insist that society invented religion as a control mechanism. This is an agnostic/atheist perspective - deities are purely human inventions in this view. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood but that doesn't seem to be consistent with some of your previous posts.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 7:44:49 AM

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Ah, this argument runs towards the Priest-Kings, something often discussed on the Gorean boards.

So, it starts out that it is mans struggle against nature (the low religions) and trying to understand the furies of nature and control them for his good, and seek favor thru appeasement. As the country organizes, the good of the many are given charge in an organizer....earl, petty king king.... king.... Well, he also takes on divining the will of the gods..........et cetera et cetera. Hell, Jeru-Salem, is one well known example from the bible.

Once civilization advances far enough...we come to the high religions, since we have worked out nature and are in a more opulent existance, and we then change the scam from struggle against the elements of nature to struggle against the elemental soul in our natures.............and blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to tweakabelle)

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