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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 8:09:33 AM

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quote:

As I understand her work, Mary Douglas would insist that society invented religion as a control mechanism. This is an agnostic/atheist perspective - deities are purely human inventions in this view. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood but that doesn't seem to be consistent with some of your previous posts.

And its been my contention that society has used religion in order to gain power and wealth. To say, for example, something is a holy war when the impetus behind the war was more about power and greed than religion.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 9:05:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It is simple. The pope wanted personal power. The Muslims wanted power. 3000 christians had died. Perfect excuse for both sides to take up arms and fight. The crusades were about land, politics and power. Pure and simple. But, out of the three, the land was merely an excuse. Merchants also wanted more control.

Furthermore, Europe’s population was growing, its urban life was beginning to revive, and both long distance and local trade were gradually increasing. European human and economic resources could now support new enterprises on the scale of the Crusades. A growing population and more surplus wealth also meant greater demand for goods from elsewhere. European traders had always looked to the Mediterranean; now they sought greater control of the goods, routes, and profits. Thus worldly interests coincided with religious feelings about the Holy Land and the pope’s newfound ability to mobilize and focus a great enterprise.

http://history-world.org/crusades.htm

No where have i ever stated that the Catholic Church is a paragon of virtue. Far from it. Its corruption can only be matched by the government. But these so-called "holy wars" had deep roots in the power and greed realm... having nothing to do with religion and everything to do with personal gains.

Mind listing some resources that back up that particular stance? I mean this is someone elses take on why this all went down and you seem to buy into it. Are there any references to this that aren't conjecture?

The idea that religion had nothing to do with this is a little nuts I think.

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(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 9:09:29 AM

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Again, read it over a few more times. No one is saying religion had nothing to do with it. Religion was the excuse.

For example. Greed and power. The PTL scandal. Baker and et all.

Religion was the excuse used to build a fantastic resort outside of Charlotte, NC. Beautiful in design. Built for christians to have a place of their own to take vacations.

Built to swindle little old ladies out of their retirement. Designed to steal millions. Greed and power behind the scenes.

Religion was the excuse. Not the purpose.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 9:37:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Again, read it over a few more times. No one is saying religion had nothing to do with it. Religion was the excuse.

For example. Greed and power. The PTL scandal. Baker and et all.

Religion was the excuse used to build a fantastic resort outside of Charlotte, NC. Beautiful in design. Built for christians to have a place of their own to take vacations.

Built to swindle little old ladies out of their retirement. Designed to steal millions. Greed and power behind the scenes.

Religion was the excuse. Not the purpose.

You seem to be going in and out of agreement here. Read the last line I quoted from you above in post #402.

Also you seem to be downplaying religions part in this..I don't think the people could have been worked into a fervor if it wasn't something worth getting behind for them.

My point in asking you to provide resources from that time period for reference is because I knew you probably couldn't...which in turn was meant to make a point. How many of us know what we are talking about first hand? I mean I was taught this in school but who knows how much of it was true and how much was speculation that tuned into firm belief? We know a great deal but to say we know the mind of those particular people based on school studies that average about 2 weeks worth of time is also a little ridiculous.

It makes for interesting discussion though.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
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(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 11:23:15 AM

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And what were the people promised during the Crusades? That simplistic link i gave you explained it.

As far as the PTL scandal... thats pretty recent... written up about alot... speculated on... court tried and convictions handed out....

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 11:51:25 AM

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quote:

How many of us know what we are talking about first hand? I mean I was taught this in school but who knows how much of it was true and how much was speculation that tuned into firm belief? We know a great deal but to say we know the mind of those particular people based on school studies that average about 2 weeks worth of time is also a little ridiculous.

Perhaps if one were to actually dedicate more than two weeks to the study of this problem one might actually disabuse themselves of their ignorance.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 12:43:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

How many of us know what we are talking about first hand? I mean I was taught this in school but who knows how much of it was true and how much was speculation that tuned into firm belief? We know a great deal but to say we know the mind of those particular people based on school studies that average about 2 weeks worth of time is also a little ridiculous.

Perhaps if one were to actually dedicate more than two weeks to the study of this problem one might actually disabuse themselves of their ignorance.

I'd agree..how many weeks have you spent studying it? Close that pie hole tommy.

My point was...They taught this stuff for about two weeks per year to all of us and unless it has become an interest enough for you to say...read other books on it and watch documentaries on the matter when you can or go beyond that and take courses on history or even make it your life's work, you'd be pretty much like the rest of the people..Even if you spent a lifetime studying a subject like this..you'd still be an idiot if you thought you could pull the truth from such dismal available information. Such as speaking "authoritatively" about why someone did what they did.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 1:45:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

How many of us know what we are talking about first hand? I mean I was taught this in school but who knows how much of it was true and how much was speculation that tuned into firm belief? We know a great deal but to say we know the mind of those particular people based on school studies that average about 2 weeks worth of time is also a little ridiculous.

Perhaps if one were to actually dedicate more than two weeks to the study of this problem one might actually disabuse themselves of their ignorance.

I'd agree..how many weeks have you spent studying it? Close that pie hole tommy.

My point was...They taught this stuff for about two weeks per year to all of us and unless it has become an interest enough for you to say...read other books on it and watch documentaries on the matter when you can or go beyond that and take courses on history or even make it your life's work, you'd be pretty much like the rest of the people..Even if you spent a lifetime studying a subject like this..you'd still be an idiot if you thought you could pull the truth from such dismal available information. Such as speaking "authoritatively" about why someone did what they did.

Perhaps you would still be an idiot because you were unable to do sufficient research to disabuse yourself of your ignorance but it is more than a little presumptuous on your part to to ascribe your own deficiencies to to others.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 1:53:41 PM

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quote:

Perhaps you would still be an idiot because you were unable to do sufficient research to disabuse yourself of your ignorance but it is more than a little presumptuous on your part to to ascribe your own deficiencies to to others.

Looking for a fight tommy?

Why don't you impress the crowd and tell us how you went on to become one of the leading members of MENSA and how your background specialty was ancient wars.

You're an idiot of the first order in my book..MENSA or not.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 11/27/2010 2:02:01 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 2:41:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Perhaps you would still be an idiot because you were unable to do sufficient research to disabuse yourself of your ignorance but it is more than a little presumptuous on your part to to ascribe your own deficiencies to to others.

Looking for a fight tommy?

Discussion if you are up for it...fighting is for adolescent morons

Why don't you impress the crowd and tell us how you went on to become one of the leading members of MENSA and how your background specialty was ancient wars.

I am sorry your membership application was turned down but mensa cannot accept just anyone

You're an idiot of the first order in my book

Perhaps, one day, you will acquire a book that does not have the words in ballons

..MENSA or not.

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 2:51:17 PM

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quote:

fighting is for adolescent morons

This is precisely why I put the question to you in the first place.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 4:04:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

What do I think of Atheists? I have the same opinion of all religions that don't exist to harm others. In my opinion, people have a right to believe as they choose and worship what Gods they will. I myself could never be an Athiest as they don't believe in any kind of afterlife. Since the human body is not immortal, we are all dying from the moment we are born. If I believed death was a permanent end to my existance, I would fear death so much I would be unable to enjoy life or lead a normal life.

So you are justifying your belief in God and an afterlife by your fear of death.

Isn't that also a good argument for why the whole concept of God and an afterlife may just be a fantasy?

I'm glad someone said this. Believing in something because the possibility that it is not true is too frightening to consider is step number one in brainwashing.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 7:22:00 PM

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

As I understand her work, Mary Douglas would insist that society invented religion as a control mechanism. This is an agnostic/atheist perspective - deities are purely human inventions in this view. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood but that doesn't seem to be consistent with some of your previous posts.

And its been my contention that society has used religion in order to gain power and wealth. To say, for example, something is a holy war when the impetus behind the war was more about power and greed than religion.

You are, of course, free to interpret Ms Douglas's work any way you please.

It seems to me that you are separating religion and society in a way that, to be most generous to you, demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of her ideas. For Douglas religion is not a stand alone concept, religion has no meaning outside its social context, its theological claims are empty.

Put simply, in this view, humans create gods not gods create humans. I do not understand how such a view can used to support a pro-theistic position. They are fundamentally incompatible, mutually exclusive. I can't be clearer about it.

Please feel free to acquaint yourself with Ms. Douglas' work and perhaps then we can have a meaningful discussion of her many interesting ideas. IMHO she is well worth the effort.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/27/2010 9:22:08 PM

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quote:

Put simply, in this view, humans create gods not gods create humans. I do not understand how such a view can used to support a pro-theistic position. They are fundamentally incompatible, mutually exclusive. I can't be clearer about it.

Care explaining what pro-theistic position you believe i am supporting?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/28/2010 6:21:44 AM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Put simply, in this view, humans create gods not gods create humans. I do not understand how such a view can used to support a pro-theistic position. They are fundamentally incompatible, mutually exclusive. I can't be clearer about it.

Care explaining what pro-theistic position you believe i am supporting?

In post # 53 you declare "I am not an atheist", in post #254 you state "I'm religious". In post #296 you advise Got Steel to "have a blessed day and walk sweetly with God, GS". Everyone one of your posts has a pro-theistic slant to it.

I've been trying to point out to you that you cannot use an argument/analysis that implicitly and explicitly rejects theism (such as Mary Douglas') to support a theistic conclusion or to make a pro-theistic point. I would have thought this is self evident. For some reason you seem to have difficulty grasping this elementary logic.

Sorry I have had enough of this silliness. Please find someone else to play your childish games with - hopefully someone who enjoys them.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/28/2010 6:34:43 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/28/2010 6:36:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
LOL takes you days to come up with that?

Go ahead abd block me, GS. you arent worth it, sweet cheeks.

LOL it's been days and you still haven't been able to come up with a response to any of my questions?

If I'm not worth it why would that cause me to block you? That doesn't make a bit of sense, chubby cheeks.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/28/2010 10:18:46 AM

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Nor am i going to answer you, GS. You take days to come back with nonsense.

But do enjoy your day.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/28/2010 10:25:01 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/28/2010 10:24:07 AM

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Put simply, in this view, humans create gods not gods create humans. I do not understand how such a view can used to support a pro-theistic position. They are fundamentally incompatible, mutually exclusive. I can't be clearer about it.

Care explaining what pro-theistic position you believe i am supporting?

In post # 53 you declare "I am not an atheist", in post #254 you state "I'm religious". In post #296 you advise Got Steel to "have a blessed day and walk sweetly with God, GS". Everyone one of your posts has a pro-theistic slant to it.

I am not an atheist.

I am religious, but do not follow a formal religion.

The blessed day and walk comment... sarcasm.

quote:

I've been trying to point out to you that you cannot use an argument/analysis that implicitly and explicitly rejects theism (such as Mary Douglas') to support a theistic conclusion or to make a pro-theistic point. I would have thought this is self evident. For some reason you seem to have difficulty grasping this elementary logic.

And yet again you insist i have a pro-theistic point. I do not. Try reading post #386. Then explain, yet again, what pro=theistic bent i have.

quote:

Sorry I have had enough of this silliness. Please find someone else to play your childish games with - hopefully someone who enjoys them.

This is part of the atheists problems on these boards. If you argue a point against anything that is against religion, you are automatically against atheism and therefore suddenly not worth the atheists time.

Im some ways, i like that. But, to bring it back to the point. Wars are started by men... and some women. I can think of one, maybe two, that may have a more religious bent than the rest... and thats it. Out of how many wars on this planet?? The rest had everything to do with greed and power, and used religion as its fuck all excuse.

And, yes, i know that flies into the face of what you, as an atheist, and others are insisting are holy wars. What the hell did you expect them to be called back then? Does the fact that peasants were offered land back then to fight in the crusades mean nothing to you? Sure meant a whole lot to them. People back then would have killed to be a land owner.

People were bribed to fight a war for personal gains by a Pope who wanted his own personal gain. It didnt have much to do with religion beyond the actual piece of land both sides wanted.... Land that had changed hands many times before.

You do this everytime you cannot work your way around a debate. But, do enjoy your day.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/28/2010 10:31:17 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/28/2010 11:29:15 AM

Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Nor am i going to answer you, GS. You take days to come back with nonsense.

Is that Tazzy speak for: I've once again made a claim that I'm completely unable to support and I'm all snarky because I got caught doing it?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 11/28/2010 12:19:10 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/28/2010 1:55:32 PM

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I am not an atheist.

I am religious, but do not follow a formal religion.

The blessed day and walk comment... sarcasm.

tazzygirl, in normal everyday English:

a belief system including theism = religion
a belief system excluding theism = (secular) philosophy/ideology

Therefore when you say " I am religious" it must include saying "I am a theist". You cannot, in normal everyday English be "religious" without also being a theist. Theism is the defining feature of religion.

Either you are aware of this - and therefore deliberately misleading everyone else here - or you are unaware of this - in which case you need to re-learn simple English.

Your choice and I wish you well with whatever option you choose.*

Please excuse my directness but i feel you have left me with no other choice.

*It is just possible, but unlikely, that these words carry different connotations in the USA than the rest of the English speaking world. I rather doubt it but if that is in fact the case, please accept my apologies.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/28/2010 2:19:29 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

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