RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 2:34:17 PM

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This may seem unpopular and very unhip, but i don't believe in minding my own business. Or, rather, i don't believe that it's wrong to give my opinion about another person's choices. Yes, i really just said that. (*winces, waiting for the shit to fly)

But before anyone gets worked up, let me say that, most of the time, i do mind my own business. Not because i think that it's wrong not to, but because, in general, i don't care too much if someone thinks or does something that's different than what i think or do. People are different, people will be different, and i have no desire to make people conform to some kind of standard. Usually.

From time to time, though, i do stick my nose in it. Whether it's someone elses dynamic, someone else's argument, or someone else's life, i will speak up if i feel strongly enough about it. In other words, if my desire to make my point and persuade is greater than my desire to be polite and let live. i would expect the same treatment from anyone who disagreed that strongly with me.

i believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is entitled to express their opinion, whether it's about something that's their own business, or not, whether they are an expert, or totally ignorant, whether their opinion helps somebody, or not. It's generally impolite to tell somebody that you disagree with their decisions, that you think they're wrong, but (in my opinion) it's not "wrong" to do so. In telling them so i don't "force" them to do anything. They are free to ignore my advice. They are free to say, go to hell. They are free to return the favor and tell me what they think of me and my choices.

In general, i think that what makes butting into someone's business so objectionable is HOW you do it, not THAT you do it. It is possible to simply express disagreement. It is possible to say you think they're wrong without being rude, especially if you just say your piece and then get out, instead of constantly badgering them.

i know many people on the forums disagree with this. But that is my take on minding my own business.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 11/19/2010 2:41:48 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 3:26:46 PM

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Agree with gungadin. Don't much care if it makes me unpopular: everyone draws a line somewhere, and I'm going to sit here and say that of course I think my line is the correct one. Everyone does. Just a few posts ago, someone argued that someone else's judgment line was wrong, and then named her line where she'd intervene. It's hypocritical to say that because your line is further into allowing others the right to consent to physical/psychological harm, you are more correct. If you have a line at all, that is. If you think people should be allowed to consent to being violently murdered, then you're not hypocritical, you're just a bit frightening.

There is no hard and fast rule that we can come up with, and those of us that are going to intervene are going to and those that are not, won't. Some people believe not intervening is wrong, and other people believe intervening is wrong. There's no way to find common ground on this.

(in reply to gungadin09)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 4:35:29 PM

xssve

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My nephew, whom I reported in the Hanky Panky thread broke his ribs in a car accident, is now in coma, fragments from the broken ribs have resulted in fat embolisms in his brain, and they can't use blood thinners, because the liver is still bleeding.

So it goes.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 5:21:11 PM

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Everyone has their lines, that is true. But where is the line in general? Where does it cross from being BDSM to abuse, cruelty, and just a downright mental issue?

And that is particularly frightening to the newbies in this realm. If I'm at one of the parties that are mentioned often, and I see someone with stark terror on their face, what have they been facing and dealing with all in the name of thinking this is how it is suppose to be? I would be concerned.

Yes, everyone has their own lines in the sand. But I feel there is another line....the line between BDSM and severe mental issues that need to be addressed. Prisons and graveyards are full of people that took things too far.

< Message edited by anniezz338 -- 11/19/2010 5:22:47 PM >

(in reply to xssve)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 5:26:09 PM

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quote:

'I'm going to use my fully-aware, entirely mature and adult sense of responsibility to give up that adult responsibility to you, Kana'.

I can't disagree vehemently enough. I have tons more responsibilities now than I ever have. I have to remember to do more things now, I have to be careful about what I do so as not to disobey or displease him in any way, I have more choices to make than ever before.

Giving up responsibility? Not even close. Sometimes I wish that were true lol...but nope it's not. Yup sometimes it's exhausting. Sometimes it's hard but the rewards are hundreds of times better than I could ever imagine.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 8:52:11 PM

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Yep . . . I can see that.

For me, such obeying would feel somewhat childlike as well as a responsibility at the same time. How I'd explain that contradiction to someone else - particularly a vanilla - would be something else, though.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 8:57:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Yep . . . I can see that.

For me, such obeying would feel somewhat childlike as well as a responsibility at the same time. How I'd explain that contradiction to someone else - particularly a vanilla - would be something else, though.

I have had some people ask me. I find it easy to explain. I am in a traditional Man as head of household relationship. Nothing at all childish about it.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/19/2010 9:29:30 PM

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'Childlike', for me, can be a good thing. It's healthy to be able to be childlike, as far as I'm concerned. That's why I used that word. 'Childish', though, I always take to have negative connotations.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 6:19:24 AM

xssve

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I think the mainstream term is "finding your inner child", the subject of much mockery from the right of course. In Gestalt, a distinction is made between the "Natural Child" and the "Adapted Child" - it is the latter who is the expert at lying and manipulation, the one who runs to Mommy when Daddy says no.

As per R.D. Laing, we are made up of all of out experience, not just the experiences we choose, to edit ones experience is to deny and negate it, and leaves us something less than what we are.

Similarly, w/respect to this thread, to negate someone else's experience without very good reason, is to "steal it" - if a law is being broken, I try to let them know that hat they are liable - other than simple assault, which most people are aware of is a grey area, and you'd start sounding like the kink monitor - otherwise, if they are consenting adults, they can ask me for my help if they think they need it, if they do I try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Most often, these questions usually involve not physical risk, but psychological risk - many fear they will lose their "will", their autonomy - which after all, is the goal of many dominants, and, again in Gestalt terms, a negation of experience, but as far as I know, I've never met anybody in whom this condition was permanent, and the more chronic cases I've encountered didn't involve BDSM, theyre more likely to involve religion, or even wealth, i.e., someone has been taken care of and had their decisions made for them for so long, they have no experience making decisions or taking care of themselves to draw on.

i.e., unless amnesia is somehow induced, all your previous experience is still there, somewhere.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 6:38:36 AM

xssve

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In fact, that's what the whole Hanky Spanky thread was about - the charge TPE players somehow try to negate the experience of casual bedroom players, and vice versa - and in fact, both things happen, and every variation in between, TPE lifestyle vs. public players, Cissexual vs. GLBT/switch, poly versus monogamous, it doesn't just happen in BDSM, it's part of life, annoying, but I say if it works for you, stick to your guns, the idea of a single, monolithic, normative ideal is an abstraction, a construct, biologically, diversity is a part of, and an important part of, the evolutionary process - it's the mechanism of evolution itself: a given population expands until it fills it's niche, at which point members on the margins will expand into adjacent niches, adapt to those, then fill them, etc., etc.

Culture is really no different, it's an abstraction but it behaves much like any other ecosystem.

(in reply to xssve)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 6:42:21 AM

xssve

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For me, the only real distinction to try and make is between predators and "browsers", i.e., consensual vs. non-consensual - it's the only distinction that really concerns me.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 6:46:53 AM

xssve

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W/regard to Laing, if being "childlike" somehow negates your experience of being an adult, there may be repercussions of some sort, unhappiness or insecurity possibly, but negating your experience as a child is to invite repercussions as well - many of our better instincts and skills are childlike traits: creativity and learning, even simple pleasure and excitement.

That's why there is nothing wrong with "playing", it's a fundamentally creative behavior.

< Message edited by xssve -- 11/20/2010 6:47:55 AM >

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 7:26:06 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

Where does it cross from being BDSM to abuse, cruelty, and just a downright mental issue?

Personally, as a pastoral care provider who has served the Fetish, Authority-dynamics, and BDSM community for quite some time, I believe that this point where it crosses the line is the point at which one of the participants decides that the behavior is beyond what xhe signed up for, and xhe attempts to escape the situation or seek my help. At that point, if I am approached, I will do everything in my power to protect the individual in question, and assure that the fact that xhe no longer consents is respected by everyone else involved. Depending on the severity of the situation, that may also mean reporting a situation as "domestic violence" or "domestic abuse" IF the individuals situation and/or condition warrants such an action.

IF the individual in question decides, of hir own free will, to return to the situation (for example, if hir former partner comes a-knockin' and xhe decides, either with a neutral party asking hir in a space -separate- from where hir former partner is located, OR in a mediated discussion with hir former partner, that xhe wishes to return to hir former situation, My involvement is OVER. Xhe has made a conscious decision to return, and, at that point, it is no longer for me to decide what xhe wants or what xhe should or should not do.

It is also my experience, after a couple of decades of doing this, that about 4 out of 10 of the individuals who have come to me seeking asylum and assistance end up returning to the former partner within 6 months of seeking assistance, whereas, when I was more... pro-active in intervening in what I saw or was -taught- were "inappropriate situations", almost 9 out of 10 of the individuals that I interceded with returned to their situation, for better or for worse. It has also been my experience that judging someone else's relationship through my own "mirror" and acting on those judgments does NOT lead to appreciation or "helping" -- instead it generates an atmosphere of hostility, and IF an individual in the relationship IS in an unhealthy (for them) situation, that un-asked-for intrusion often drives the individual more deeply into the relationship to PROVE that there is "nothing wrong", -and- sets up a perception in that individual that I cannot be trusted to "understand" their situation... meaning that they no longer trust me as a resource if things -do- go belly-up. By the time individuals who have been pushed this far -do- seek out help, especially if kink-aware help is hard to come by in the community, the situation will often have devolved to the point where their life may even be in jeopardy.

I've found it to be much more successful to provide plenty of information for people to work with, finding and keeping a network of kink-aware professionals that I can refer people to with whom they'll feel safe in opening up, and providing that asylum for the cases where someone -does- need to get away and needs to know that they won't be recriminated for their choices, but will be supported and guided to safety from where they are right now.

Calla

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 8:31:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

It has also been my experience that judging someone else's relationship through my own "mirror" and acting on those judgments does NOT lead to appreciation or "helping" -- instead it generates an atmosphere of hostility, and IF an individual in the relationship IS in an unhealthy (for them) situation, that un-asked-for intrusion often drives the individual more deeply into the relationship to PROVE that there is "nothing wrong", -and- sets up a perception in that individual that I cannot be trusted to "understand" their situation... meaning that they no longer trust me as a resource if things -do- go belly-up. By the time individuals who have been pushed this far -do- seek out help, especially if kink-aware help is hard to come by in the community, the situation will often have devolved to the point where their life may even be in jeopardy.

Yep, I can see that sort of dynamic developing only too easily - that of the 'You don't understand, I'm not talking to you' variety. The barriers can go up in a split second and it's really hard to take them down again. A therapist will get the same thing if he/she 'pushes' a client in that way.

You must have had to deal with a lot of frustration and some truly hideous dilemmas at times.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 8:44:41 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

Yep, I can see that sort of dynamic developing only too easily - that of the 'You don't understand, I'm not talking to you' variety. The barriers can go up in a split second and it's really hard to take them down again. A therapist will get the same thing if he/she 'pushes' a client in that way.

You must have had to deal with a lot of frustration and some truly hideous dilemmas at times.

Honestly, there have been months on end where I seriously questioned whether or not I could continue as a pastoral care provider in the community and still keep my sanity -- at which point I had to use my referrals to deal with my clients, and get with MY pastoral-care provider to help me get some balance again. (And knowing when to say "I just can't do any more right now" -- or having someone close to you who can see when you're slipping over that edge can make the difference between being able to keep doing this and having a major mental breakdown.)

Calla

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 9:08:17 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

My nephew, whom I reported in the Hanky Panky thread broke his ribs in a car accident, is now in coma, fragments from the broken ribs have resulted in fat embolisms in his brain, and they can't use blood thinners, because the liver is still bleeding.

So it goes.

I'm so sorry. I said a prayer for him.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/20/2010 1:36:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

For me, the only real distinction to try and make is between predators and "browsers", i.e., consensual vs. non-consensual - it's the only distinction that really concerns me.

I have had to learn to draw my own lines in the sand. There are things that I will never understand or believe are OK for anyone, but those are my lines, my views. It is difficult to accept what I think of as stupid and wrong. I won't accept it for myself, but experience has taught me that I cannot help those who won't be helped.
I do find it strange to be accused of intolerance by those who will not tolerate my intolerance.

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(in reply to xssve)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/21/2010 6:37:27 AM

xssve

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Thank you hlen, we're all hoping he comes out of it.

We have to draw the line somewhere catize, and typically, we prefer to be around others who draw similar lines - again, to criticize a given practice is, in some sense, to advertise the fact that you personally, "won't go there", and a fast way of finding others in your proximity sympathetic to that - it just happens that these lines are often easier to draw in the negation than proactively, in the positive - you may not know what where that line is, until confronted by it, at which point you are inclined to express this discovery as negation.

Taken to extremes, it can be quite annoying, I've conversed with women who have given me a long list of things they won't do, to the point I'm like, "just what the hell is you will do?", lol.

< Message edited by xssve -- 11/21/2010 6:38:33 AM >

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/21/2010 7:17:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Yep . . . I can see that.

For me, such obeying would feel somewhat childlike as well as a responsibility at the same time. How I'd explain that contradiction to someone else - particularly a vanilla - would be something else, though.

I say that he's the CEO and I'm the executive assistant. I'm not childlike, I still have a great deal of responsibility but I don't have the ultimate responsibility. The buck, in Harry Truman's words, doesn't stop here. It stops on his desk, not mine. And I prefer that. I don't want to have all that responsibility. Are you childlike or childish because you are only a Member of Parliament and not Prime Minister or head of an opposition party? Certainly not, but you don't have the ultimate responsibilities that the PM has.

And to address anniezz concerns. Some people enjoy fear play. I don't but I do know it is a strong emotion and some people seek to experience very strong emotions no matter if they are positive or negative, it's the strength of them that is attractive. If I saw someone like this at a party I would assume it was play she had agreed to. If I was concerned about her ability to recover, I would ask the host or DM since usually extreme play is mentioned to them ahead of time.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 11/21/2010 7:20:26 AM >

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/21/2010 7:35:39 AM

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quote:

We have to draw the line somewhere catize, and typically, we prefer to be around others who draw similar lines - again, to criticize a given practice is, in some sense, to advertise the fact that you personally, "won't go there", and a fast way of finding others in your proximity sympathetic to that - it just happens that these lines are often easier to draw in the negation than proactively, in the positive - you may not know what where that line is, until confronted by it, at which point you are inclined to express this discovery as negation

There are many things I am okay with for others despite the fact I would not ever be able to do them, and I'm sure that there are things I do that would concern other folks.
I do believe there is a line for all; but some lines should not be fluid and damn if I don't have difficulty biting my tongue (or sitting on my hands, as the case may be) when I read some posts on here.
But you are correct that others opinions do make it easier to know who I could be friends with!

As for your second paragraph, that is why I don't list limits or discuss them in a first contact. It is all in the perspective in my opinion. My philosophy is that if there is a list of 200 activities, and I will be open to 190 of those 200, that is positive. But if I list 10 'won't do' in my profile, it can appear to be a lot of negatives.

< Message edited by catize -- 11/21/2010 7:36:59 AM >

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(in reply to xssve)

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