When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a submissive thing"?

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When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a subm... - 12/9/2010 8:11:40 AM

YSG

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Ok... Im posting this here because I want perspectives from all sides. This is a rant stemming from a conversation with a female sub friend of mine. She has said that it seems that being a gentleman has become "a submissive thing".

Um, what? I know a number of male doms locally, and Im sure quite a few on this board, who always attempt to be gentlemen, wether it is opening doors for a lady, paying for dates, carrying things when the situation calls for it, etc. 50 years ago, this was just expected of us as men, wether it was the young guys like me on a date, or older guys out with their wives. So when did this become "a submissive thing"?

I think Im gonna go bang my head against the wall for awhile....

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RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:14:24 AM

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Being a gentleman or not is not about Dom/sub, but about having class and style - or not.

(in reply to YSG)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:15:20 AM

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It hasnt, at least not for me. Nothing turns me on more than knowing the man in my life is seen in public as a gentleman... treats me as such in public, and sometimes in private... knowing that, at his merest whim, he can turn into a sadistic bastard and bring me to the heights of pleasure (or depths, depending on his depravity level

)

Some women want the gentleman...i adore the man who is a gentleman but isnt afraid to show me the beast.

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(in reply to YSG)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:23:17 AM

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I think it really boils down to people seeing the act, not the motivation/intention behind it, as being dominant or submissive. Acts are just acts. My ex wouldn't open doors because he felt it was a submissive act, saying the slave should be providing that service. My Daddy insists on opening them, thus retaining control over the situation as I wait for him to open it and enter through it once he grants access.

It just depends on where a person is coming from.

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(in reply to YSG)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:37:57 AM

YSG

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I agree with all three of you, I dont see it as a dominant or submissive thing either. I admit, Ive been out with a few gals that were less than lady-like with me, but I still made every attempt to be a gentleman.

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Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to NuevaVida)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:38:39 AM

Kana

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Dude, I'm a dominant guy and being a gentleman is hugely important to me.
Grins. Even when I'm hurting her, I do it with elan.

Course, I don't think I've ever been confused with subservient. Comply just ain't in my basic nature.
:-)

< Message edited by Kana -- 12/9/2010 9:10:50 AM >

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RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:39:05 AM

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I insist on opening doors and not allowing her to do some things that I do. The reasoning is more than me being Dom, Yes being Dom and in control is one part, but it is ALSO showing her respsct and taking care of her the best I can.
One instance recently, she hurt her knee and back and couldn't bend over I watched her one morning trying to get dressed and she couldn't put on her underware, when I asked what she was doing, she got scolded for not comming to me and was told that I do those things when she can't, for the next few days she wasn't allowed to dress herself.
Some might veiw that as submissive, but for me it was an act of careing and showing her I was in controll enough to take care of her and feel safe

Find a person that appreciates the way you act, don't bang your head against the wall, you just end up with a damaged wall to fix and a headache

(in reply to MsSavra)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:48:17 AM

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Prepare for a "Get Off My Lawn" moment...

I think this is a generational thing. Younger people have the misconception that being a gentleman can equate to being subserviant, but older people equate gentlemanly behavior to being in control enough to offer small kindnesses (like opening doors or seating a lady) without changing any kind of power dynamic.

I've encountered this attitude before and every time the woman was in her twenties.

(in reply to ricken)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 8:55:11 AM

YSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirGeoffrey1

Prepare for a "Get Off My Lawn" moment...

I think this is a generational thing. Younger people have the misconception that being a gentleman can equate to being subserviant, but older people equate gentlemanly behavior to being in control enough to offer small kindnesses (like opening doors or seating a lady) without changing any kind of power dynamic.

I've encountered this attitude before and every time the woman was in her twenties.

Ehhh, I would have to disagree there, because I've seen that attitude from boomers as well as my own generation.

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Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to SirGeoffrey1)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:11:27 AM

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I have to agree more with you than your friend.

If you really want to look at it from the angle of a Dominant or a submissive 'thing', it can vary somewhat depending on the Dominant. More often, when the Dominant is female, it can be a requirement for the male submissive to conduct themselves in such a way that would be considered behaving in the manner of a gentleman (holding doors, carrying things, etc). When the Dominant is male, he can choose to do these things or delegate them to the submissive. That goes more to any protocol that the male Dominant wants to instill. Completely up to his authority, in My opinion, depending on their dynamic.

It can be a generational thing, in some instances. This varies to degrees according to how a male was brought up, the influences in his life, and so on. There are definitely some geographical influences. In My opinion, it's much more common in the South than anywhere I've lived in the country.

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(in reply to YSG)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:20:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSavra

Being a gentleman or not is not about Dom/sub, but about having class and style - or not.

THIS.

My Dominant husband is a gentleman, who also does things like cook, and takes care of me when I'm not well, like now. None of this is subservient in the least, it just shows the kind if Man He is. I am very blessed.

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RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:23:25 AM

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From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

Ok... Im posting this here because I want perspectives from all sides. This is a rant stemming from a conversation with a female sub friend of mine. She has said that it seems that being a gentleman has become "a submissive thing".

Um, what? I know a number of male doms locally, and Im sure quite a few on this board, who always attempt to be gentlemen, wether it is opening doors for a lady, paying for dates, carrying things when the situation calls for it, etc. 50 years ago, this was just expected of us as men, wether it was the young guys like me on a date, or older guys out with their wives. So when did this become "a submissive thing"?

I think Im gonna go bang my head against the wall for awhile....

I consider myself to be a gentleman, and I can assure you it is not submissive. If anything, it's more shocking for a sub/slave (or so I've been told) to be treated so "well" and then to be treated "badly" when I choose, than it is to be with someone who is merely an oaf all the time.

Personally, if I were you, I'd have a coke and a smile and forget all about it. It's the gentlemanly thing to do

(in reply to YSG)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:33:11 AM

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My favorite story about opening doors has to do with a young man (with a quick mind) who was trying to be a 'gentleman' vs a 'women's libber'

His mom said that he held a door in a store as she had raised a gentleman and the woman was all over hime becase he was "condescending to women and she could get her own door dammit".

The young man replied "I wasnt holding the door because you're a woman, I was holding it because you're old"

His mom said she didnt know whether to hug him or kill him.

Back to the subject. I dont think it has nearly as much to do with the one holding the door as the one who is having the door held for them.

(in reply to RapierFugue)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:34:21 AM

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And yes, I ALWAYS hold doors. It's how I was raised.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:35:39 AM

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FR

It's a manners thing, I like good manners... Being polite is not a sign of being submissive, if anything it shows strength.

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(in reply to YSG)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:40:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

My favorite story about opening doors has to do with a young man (with a quick mind) who was trying to be a 'gentleman' vs a 'women's libber'

His mom said that he held a door in a store as she had raised a gentleman and the woman was all over hime becase he was "condescending to women and she could get her own door dammit".

The young man replied "I wasnt holding the door because you're a woman, I was holding it because you're old"

His mom said she didnt know whether to hug him or kill him.

A northern mate of mine was on a packed train once when a very large girl squeezed into the carriage. Being a gentleman, he stood and offered his seat.

She wheeled round and vehemently exclaimed "I don't need your help! I'm not weak! Stick your fucking seat!". Being a British train, he said there was a murmur of "well I say! How rude!" from other passengers.

He paused a moment, and then said, in his northern accent; "Fair play. Tha doesn't sweat much for a fat lass.", and the carriage fell about laughing.

As to your other comment, I agree in part, but I would add that I don't actually care how the other person feels about it; I do it because it's the polite, correct thing to do. If the other party wishes to get all mardy about it then that's their issue, not mine. BTW I also hold doors open for anyone, regardless of age or gender, as it's simply the polite thing to do, and what helps the world go round a bit more cheerfully is a bit more politeness.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:40:50 AM

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There was a time when courtesy was the accepted standard of behaviour, and behaving like a gentleman was the rule, not the exception. It has nothing to do with D/s. It has everything to do with good manners.

As Ogden Nash so eloquently put it in one of his poems- "Manners maketh Man. Lack of manners maketh ape." I wholeheartedly agree.

( Ogden Nash. Now there's some "Get off my lawn!" for ya.

)

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RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 9:47:48 AM

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As a friend of mine was being harrassed by some other friends about wearing a pink shirt, his answer was, I am man enough to wear a pink shirt and look damn good in it.

I think a gentleman has to be secure in himself, knowing he is being polite, not submissive. I know hundreds of both dominant and submissive men, some are secure enough to be a gentleman, and they are most often the ones who are sought out by females as partners, I know some who are rude boorish jerks.......... and they wonder why they are alone.......

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RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 10:17:05 AM

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LOL... I tend to look at statements like that a lot like I'd look at anyone who use the phrase "not a true..." In both cases, someone has neatly informed me that they are not a compatible partner with me and I may move on. This again points out (to me) that there are wildly different definitions of dominance and submission being used in kink circles. I'm pretty certain that my ability to command does not rest on whether or not I hold a door for someone. Clearly, however, for the person saying that, it does. For me, I'm glad that my own personal domly mojo isn't that fragile.

Conveniently enough for me, all I have to be is right and then I'm right. The thing I refer to as dominance is objectively testable. All the person would have to do is let me hold the door for someone and then in some way provoke me into an actual contest of wills (which is only useful as a thought experiment, it's hard to imagine actual ways that I'd allow some random stranger to provoke me into an actual contest of wills). At that point, we would find out who was dominant and who not.... no guesswork required. I'm a big believer in reality.

edited to add:I realized I didn't make this clear. That still would not change the other person's mind. At that point they'd likely see me as an arrogant, domineering, asshat. From my own perspective however, the thing I care about has been proven so I'm good. In the end, people value what they value and to them it is those things that are most "real".

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 12/9/2010 10:33:57 AM >

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(in reply to YSG)

RE: When did being a gentleman suddenly become "a ... - 12/9/2010 10:22:31 AM

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That kind of statement makes my head explode. Thank GOODNESS that they make duct tape in my hair colour!

I have met more YOUNG well mannered men and women than those my age these days. Manners, courtesy, consideration for others, all of those are a sign of being properly brought up, NOT orientation or age.

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