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RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:35:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance
Sure she might want tasks, but thats most likely not in her best interest.... I wanted a lot of things in my life that werent in my best interest... my partner or parents being responsible made sure that those things I didnt get...Because they wernt in my best interest...

This is pretty much the way I see it. Master would tell me that it's not about what I want. It's about what he deems as the best course of action.

I'm all for the non-physical stuff that factors into the D/s roles. Hell, when I had been ordered to bed with pneumonia I had a whole list of orders. I had to tell him when I was getting out of bed. If he was home, I had to ask permission to get out of bed. I ate even when I wasn't hungry, because he said so. The list went on.

But, as someone who has PCOS and has suffered through numerous cysts, I can tell you that they're nothing to play with. If that cyst is bad enough that she's on bed rest, it's because they're concerned about a rupture. I don't think I'd risk the "gentle anal" sex and would avoid anything that puts pressure on the abdominal cavity.

And if being concerned about someone else's health, safety and future makes me "unslave-like", I can live with that.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:38:26 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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Aqua, I think we should get pitch forks and torches and run this man out of town. We already have a mob gunning for his hyde, the only thing missing is the pitchforks and the torches.

The poor man just asked a question, and in true drama lamma wagon fashion, every one jumped on him with how horrible and insensitive he's being and it was his SLAVE, not him wanting tasks, shame on the slave for wanting to feel useless and slavery focoused, the mob w/ith pitch forks an torches, should run her out of town with him as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Evidently that is what he is supposed to do.

Such an asshole. Wanting suggestions as to how she can feel useful and spare her feeling useless. even though she is on bedrest. I really don't know how she can put up on with him. I mean... Jeez, it's like he cares about how she feels. Ew.

Like I said, I'm seriously feeling for d-type males. They can't do anything right. I hope the OP sticks around because there is a lot of good stuff among the insults.

_____________________________

One world under lube with vibrators and dildo's for all! quote from the sex toy 101 book

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:40:03 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
And if being concerned about someone else's health, safety and future makes me "unslave-like", I can live with that.

Ahh... but what makes you wiser than the doctor who put her on bedrest, hmm?

*If* the doctor said she can anal and she wants to have anal, why are you cock-blocking the woman?

I'm really not seeing the need for all these insults. I'm really not.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/6/2011 6:41:04 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to OsideGirl)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:43:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

The poor man just asked a question, and in true drama lamma wagon fashion, every one jumped on him with how horrible and insensitive he's being and it was his SLAVE, not him wanting tasks, shame on the slave for wanting to feel useless and slavery focoused, the mob w/ith pitch forks an torches, should run her out of town with him as well.

Definitely. I mean, asking her doctor what she can and can not do and then serving as she can within those boundaries?

That sort of thing obviously has no place here - right along with a d-type not wanting his s-type to go through laying there feeling useless. Caring and trying to find ways to get what you want while doing what you need is just flat out unacceptable!

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/6/2011 6:44:34 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Toppingfrmbottom)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:49:32 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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Aqua,,

An honest question, if the doctor told him his limitations and what would and wouldn't be a good Idea, why is he here asking for information on what he should and shouldnt do...

When i had a Cyst I was ordered to bed rest, and given a list of do this... dont do this stay within these limits...

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:54:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Aqua,,

An honest question, if the doctor told him his limitations and what would and wouldn't be a good Idea, why is he here asking for information on what he should and shouldnt do...

When i had a Cyst I was ordered to bed rest, and given a list of do this... dont do this stay within these limits...

An honest answer:

quote:

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions for training and tasks I can do with her over the next few weeks which will keep her mind appropriately focussed and also alleviate the inevitable boredom and frustration of being unable to perform her normal tasks and duties?

Do you really think the doctor gave them a list of things to keep her in slave-head space?

He knows what she can and can't do physically. He's looking for suggestions as to how to work within the limits to maintain the headspace they both desire. And the last time I checked, a medical degree didn't also come with a degree in power dynamics.

So he came here to a large collection of people who are experienced in power dynamics.

Makes sense to me. And I still Valyraen would burst his gut laughing if he asked a similar question and got some of the response ya'll have given.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/6/2011 6:57:47 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:57:33 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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....

So when given with the answers of let her rest, it would most likely be the best were told *bad opinion.... your calling him a jerk...*

I described what a cyst feels like in grapic detail because not everyones experienced them...

I guess were just drama lamas... who think that to those of us whove had them the best idea is

"Pet while I know you want to help the best thing to do is rest... here have a cookie"

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:57:54 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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Maybe she's not in intense pain. Just because you were, if you had a cyst, or someone else was, doesn't have to mean she will be or is in intense pain. And even if she is, then she may want tasks to help keep her mind off her pain. These tasks, are not what HE wants, and HE's doing what he wants. He's not a jerk for asking about tasks his slave wants and can do bed ridden. He said he's sympathetic, and he says he understands.

Sure things like heavy sex or a big spanking or floggings or ass fuckings, aren't practical or in her best interest, but it's not going to hurt her to do things like fold laundry in bed, or read a book he orders, or if he so ordered her to watch 24 episodes back to back of his favorite program. He's got common sense, he's not going to make her do strenous stuff that's gonna make it hurt.

I've broken both my legs, not at once but a few years apart. I was bedridden a lot, going nuts not being able to do anything an I was in pain, When I had to get up and walk it was slow going an difficult an I got tired easily, I was forced to go on an outing with a lot of walking the day after I broke my ankle by the group home I lived in, and I was bored and restless. I would of loved having someone give me little tasks I could do from my bed, or from somewhere safe and comfortable. You and others calling him selfish , might not think its in her best interest, but really I feel it's not in someone elses interest to not give them things in which to occupy their mind and feel useful, or at the very least not bored out of her mind. Being bored and restless and resenting being bored and restless, is worse for their best interest. and makes resting harder than safe tasks they can easily do. She's bed ridden with a cyst, not some delicate china doll who must hold completely still and do nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

And Thats super, I perfer a master that understands the intense pain and the severity of the situation and acts accordingly....

My suggestion is UNDERSTAND what the person is going through..... And act accordingly... thats what an ovarian cyst FEELS like.... IT FELLS THAT bad, even worse when the cyst is growing or if it ruptures....

To me being a jerk is going through the situation with what he wants... and doesnt. Sure she might want tasks, but thats most likely not in her best interest.... I wanted a lot of things in my life that werent in my best interest... my partner or parents being responsible made sure that those things I didnt get...Because they wernt in my best interest... They would have made the situation worse Not better....

They are currently looking for the rate of growth and the risk of rupture from the cyst as well as how safe is it to remove and what method of removal should they use....As well as possibly figuring out if its just a cyst....

And while being in bed being ordered to do nothing but say read or common sense things might make her miserable for a week...its one week....

loosing the use of her ovary for the rest of her life, risking her ability to have children.... and possibly worse side effects... because the she did too much while on bed rest is most likely going to be worse.... Espically if those tasks cause the cyst to rupture.... thats a forever kinda deal....

_____________________________

One world under lube with vibrators and dildo's for all! quote from the sex toy 101 book

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 6:59:57 PM

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Spirited, go read the responses. You flat out said "You make me glad I'm single". That's not "Let her rest", that's an insult. And, to be blunt, it's a very mean and uncalled for thing to say.

Furthermore, if you will read his OP again, he asks about her mind.

The man is letting her rest. He just wants to keep her from being bored.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/6/2011 7:00:21 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:00:11 PM

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OP:

The only thing I can tell you is...... Just do whatever it is in your ability to satisfy her slave duties, without getting herself any more implications on whatever disease/illness she has. Take care of her closely, after all, she's a human too, just like you.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:04:18 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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Yes. All of you who are acting like simple tasks, which don't even have to be to do anything, just watch tv, write stories, plan something special, think of a special event you'd like to do ect ect, several people mentioned activities and tasks, a bed ridden person can do, with no harm to themselves,, who're acting like that would hurt her, or harm her, or keep her from resting, or are not in her best interest, just automatically assume, tasks are gonna be something that could harm her or cause her more pain or a cyst to burst, are dramma lamma's. Or at the very least making assumptions that are unfounded. The man clearly cares about her wellbeing, he's not going to do something to her, or make her do something that will hurt her.

She's probably bored. She's probably restless. Sure there's a lot of stuff she can't or shouldn't do, but she's not something that's gonna crack or break at the slightest thought, she's capable of doing small tasks you can do from bed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

....

So when given with the answers of let her rest, it would most likely be the best were told *bad opinion.... your calling him a jerk...*

I described what a cyst feels like in grapic detail because not everyones experienced them...

I guess were just drama lamas... who think that to those of us whove had them the best idea is

"Pet while I know you want to help the best thing to do is rest... here have a cookie"

_____________________________

One world under lube with vibrators and dildo's for all! quote from the sex toy 101 book

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:06:14 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom
I've broken both my legs, not at once but a few years apart. I was bedridden a lot, going nuts not being able to do anything an I was in pain, When I had to get up and walk it was slow going an difficult an I got tired easily, I was forced to go on an outing with a lot of walking the day after I broke my ankle by the group home I lived in, and I was bored and restless. I would of loved having someone give me little tasks I could do from my bed, or from somewhere safe and comfortable. You and others calling him selfish , might not think its in her best interest, but really I feel it's not in someone elses interest to not give them things in which to occupy their mind and feel useful, or at the very least not bored out of her mind. Being bored and restless and resenting being bored and restless, is worse for their best interest. and makes resting harder than safe tasks they can easily do. She's bed ridden with a cyst, not some delicate china doll who must hold completely still and do nothing.

Same thing right back at you, just because your bored out of your mind when on bed rest, doesnt mean she is...

She might be asking because she feels the dynamic is more important then her recovery or her being ill. That her mindset is more important then any damage that might happen to her....

He asked for advise...Weve given ... Advice... Your advice is no more valid then mine... Mine is no more valid then yours...

However because I choose to describe the situation as it normally happens when one ruptures a cyst.... Its *stop calling him a jerk hes done nothing wrong.. and jezze how dare you actually add information about the pain one feels when having a cyst....* And Grab the pitch forks People who prefer to not to even think of someone suffering this type of pain are being mean to the Domly man who came to ask for advice....

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to Toppingfrmbottom)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:09:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Same thing right back at you, just because your bored out of your mind when on bed rest, doesnt mean she is...

She might be asking because she feels the dynamic is more important then her recovery or her being ill. That her mindset is more important then any damage that might happen to her....

Hence why her owner, the one in charge, is asking for things she can do within the limits - again for her MIND. Nor, for that matter, did he say he would have her do anything outside those limits. He is trying to both keep her body and mind well. Truly, she suffers so. Having an owner who cares about her brain being stimulated.

quote:

He asked for advise...Weve given ... Advice... Your advice is no more valid then mine... Mine is no more valid then yours...

True. However, hers didn't come with pointless personal attacks towards the OP. Which I don't think you are realizing is what she and I objecting to.

quote:

However because I choose to describe the situation as it normally happens when one ruptures a cyst.... Its *stop calling him a jerk hes done nothing wrong.. and jezze how dare you actually add information about the pain one feels when having a cyst....* And Grab the pitch forks People who prefer to not to even think of someone suffering this type of pain are being mean to the Domly man who came to ask for advice....

Yes, you do so helpfully provide some information about the pain she may be going through. Right after telling him he is the sort of man that makes you glad you're single.

How can he find the advice through the accusations? It's not hard, and is actually less typing, to simply say "I don't think you should do anything other than let her rest."

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/6/2011 7:14:02 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:13:21 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Spirited, go read the responses. You flat out said "You make me glad I'm single". That's not "Let her rest", that's an insult. And, to be blunt, it's a very mean and uncalled for thing to say.

Furthermore, if you will read his OP again, he asks about her mind.

The man is letting her rest. He just wants to keep her from being bored.

I am glad im single if this is what I can expect from the treads ive seen of late.

Thats a valid opinion, wither or not its mean or cruel or harsh, its my opinion..... I wouldnt want a dom who wanted me to do more then rest when it came to possible life altering situations....

Everyone on this thread is assuming.... Not just me...

You and tftb are assuming that because I have a strong opinion I must be a drama lama and so cruel and blah blah blah...

Im assuming that because hes online asking for advice... he probably doesnt understand the severity of the situation...

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:17:00 PM

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No, you need to actually read my posts.

I think you are being mean. I have not called you a drama llama. I do, in fact, think that you are being extraordinarily mean to a man who is trying to spare his property boredom and keep her mentally fulfilled. I think you are deliberately ignoring the part in his OP where he clearly states that he is looking for ways to engage her mind.

I think are you being cruel because of the words you used. Not because of your opinion. I know that you are intelligent enough to know that there are different ways to express things and that you know the difference between being insulting and not.

Your opinion that he should let her rest is a valid opinion. It's not cruel or harsh or anything. Your insults are.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/6/2011 7:19:00 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:18:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
And if being concerned about someone else's health, safety and future makes me "unslave-like", I can live with that.

Ahh... but what makes you wiser than the doctor who put her on bedrest, hmm?

*If* the doctor said she can anal and she wants to have anal, why are you cock-blocking the woman?

I'm really not seeing the need for all these insults. I'm really not.

I'll agree with you part way Aqua. But, just because can you doesn't mean you should. My doctors tell me they could manage to get me pregnant, if I wanted to. Would they actually recommend me getting pregnant? No.

My experiences with doctors have been that you're not always getting the whole truth. I've been through a lot with cancer, ovarian cysts, and PCOS. I've had a lot of doctors try not to scare me, so I got the sugar coated version.

Ultimately, whatever they do is their own choice. They're adults.

I never called him an asshole, I never said he was a jerk. I've actually said twice that I think nonphysical D/s stuff is fine and dandy.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:22:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I'll agree with you part way Aqua. But, just because can you doesn't mean you should. My doctors tell me they could manage to get me pregnant, if I wanted to. Would they actually recommend me getting pregnant? No.

This is true. As he said she can, I'm going with that. Obviously if he is going against what the doctor's recommend, that is it just a bad idea.

quote:

I never called him an asshole, I never said he was a jerk. I've actually said twice that I think nonphysical D/s stuff is fine and dandy.

I realize and I apologize if it came across that way. Simply a response to the .... hostility... in this thread.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to OsideGirl)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:24:09 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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True, true. My point is, she's bedridden, she's not minutes away from breaking if she does things. She wants tasks, then, if he's responcible and gives her tasks that are safe for someone in her condition to do, like fold laundry, or read a book of his choosing, or watch 24 episodes of CSI back to back* for example* he's not a jerk. I see someone who wants to help his slave feel useful, and stay focoused on her slavery. She can still rest and convaless, with tasks like reading a book he tells her too, writing stories,planning a future day out, or watching tv shows he tells her too, and she still feels like she's useful, and not at risk of hurting herself further.

And it's probably the wrong time for this ,given that things are getting a lil tense here, but *pokes your avatar, in a gesture o being silly an fun , just because it says poke me I dare you hehehe*

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Same thing right back at you, just because your bored out of your mind when on bed rest, doesnt mean she is...

She might be asking because she feels the dynamic is more important then her recovery or her being ill. That her mindset is more important then any damage that might happen to her....

He asked for advise...Weve given ... Advice... Your advice is no more valid then mine... Mine is no more valid then yours...

_____________________________

One world under lube with vibrators and dildo's for all! quote from the sex toy 101 book

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:29:49 PM

SpiritedRadiance

Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

True, true. My point is, she's bedridden, she's not minutes away from breaking if she does things. She wants tasks, then, if he's responcible and gives her tasks that are safe for someone in her condition to do, like fold laundry, or read a book of his choosing, or watch 24 episodes of CSI back to back* for example* he's not a jerk. I see someone who wants to help his slave feel useful, and stay focoused on her slavery. She can still rest and convaless, with tasks like reading a book he tells her too, writing stories,planning a future day out, or watching tv shows he tells her too, and she still feels like she's useful, and not at risk of hurting herself further.

And it's probably the wrong time for this ,given that things are getting a lil tense here, but *pokes your avatar, in a gesture o being silly an fun , just because it says poke me I dare you hehehe*

My point is You dont know this...I dont know this....The only person who would know this is HER DOCTOR....

However I do know Folding laundry isnt a good idea it moves the abdomen... When you have something in that area your not supposed to move.... moving it isnt the best suggestion....

I guess my largest gripe and probably the reason for the more harsh treatment..... is he came online to asks strangers instead of the medical professional, if he felt comfortable enough to ask about anal... why cant he ask about other things as well. It comes across as Ive been told X but i dont really believe it...

Could I be wrong sure, have i been wrong in the past Yes... will i be wrong in the future... Yes... But what im taking from the Op is ... I dont want to do what has been suggested by the doctor.. so what else...

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to Toppingfrmbottom)

RE: Ideas for bedridden slave - 1/6/2011 7:32:38 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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What if you wanted to, and the things he asked you were simple and easy, so easy any one could do it, like watch exactly 10 episodes of something, or read exactly 10 pages of a book he gives you and report how you felt about it. I agree that some stuff just wouldn't be in her best interest, and could push things worse, but the mental aspects of control, and being told what to do, don't have to stop, if a couple doesn't want them to because one of them is sick.

I disagree so strongly with the idea that tasks are gonna be harmful to her, and said people who're just automatically coming from the stand point of he's a jerk, or this isn't good for her leave her alone, are drama lamma's because, while sex and strenous stuff is out, it's not unreasonable if the pair wishest o have tasks and give little things to order her to do, he's not a jerk. He's trying to do a modified version in honor of her being bedridden, of their Master / Slave relationship.

If things were different an she wanted to rest an do nothing but rest, an he was like well tough shit you're my s*lave an bedridden with a cyst or not, you'll do tasks, or tasks you're not up to doing, then I'd be in the pitch fork torch carrying mob right along with every one else I said was it.

But he's not. And that's why I feel so strongly about the negative reactions an people saying he's not doing her any good by giving her tasks. Because she's asked, and he's obviously going about it in a safe way , that won't further distress her bedridden/ cyst watching condition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Spirited, go read the responses. You flat out said "You make me glad I'm single". That's not "Let her rest", that's an insult. And, to be blunt, it's a very mean and uncalled for thing to say.

Furthermore, if you will read his OP again, he asks about her mind.

The man is letting her rest. He just wants to keep her from being bored.

I am glad im single if this is what I can expect from the treads ive seen of late.

Thats a valid opinion, wither or not its mean or cruel or harsh, its my opinion..... I wouldnt want a dom who wanted me to do more then rest when it came to possible life altering situations....

Everyone on this thread is assuming.... Not just me...

You and tftb are assuming that because I have a strong opinion I must be a drama lama and so cruel and blah blah blah...

Im assuming that because hes online asking for advice... he probably doesnt understand the severity of the situation...

_____________________________

One world under lube with vibrators and dildo's for all! quote from the sex toy 101 book

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

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