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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 12:01:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

You mention the similarities of ancient myths. This was something I picked up on when I was 8 years old (I lived at the library as a child). Historically, civilization began in 5 independent areas around the world all within a few centuries of each other...China, the Andes, the Indus Valley (modern Pakistan), Central America, and the Fertile Crescent (Israel and Jordon down to central Iraq).

Until recently...

A Tel Aviv University team excavating a cave in central Israel said teeth found in the cave are about 400,000 years old and resemble those of other remains of modern man, known scientifically as Homo sapiens, found in Israel. The earliest Homo sapiens remains found until now are half as old.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_ancient_teeth

Nice find. I'm not sure what your point is by posting that with my quote. Can you elaborate?

There was a news article last week that a tooth and finger bone was found in a Siberian cave that does not match Homo Sapiens at all and suggests there was yet another branch of human evolution that went extinct in addition to Neanderthals.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 12:14:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

First: I'm an atheist.

This is a serious question, not a snide one:

Could you provide scientific proof, or just a logical argument, that shows it's better to be alive than dead? You see, I can't. I'm still alive because I have a largely unquestioned faith that it's better to be alive than dead.

The Pope may be the world's leading bullshitter and all religion ultimately a lot of drivel, but I honestly don't think most people realise just how much irrational faith they have, nor how crucial it is that they maintain that faith.

Excellent post!

Thanks for pointing out that, contrary to what many people like to think, none of us are entirely rational creatures. While the exact mix of rational/irrational behaviour and thinking is probably individually unique, it is clear that exclusively rational approaches to understanding ourselves, our behaviours and the universe we are part of fall short of the mark.

There doesn’t appear to be any reason to suppose that future results will be any different. For those interested, there is a formal proof of the impossibility of a rational Theory of Everything (Godel's Theorem) Scientific research has yielded many insights but cannot answer the ‘big questions’ satisfactorily.

Despite being a permanently inadequate tool for this particular line of enquiry rational investigation remains far and away our most successful and reliable methodology. Alternative approaches such as religion seem to encounter great difficulties in explaining even the most basic observable phenomena, as the history of Church-Science debates illustrates. While religions may provide emotional comfort to many, they seem inadequate as a viable alternative approach.

Eventually, this line of enquiry leads us to consideration of Truth as a basic value, as the object and validator of belief systems and behaviours. As objective Truth seems to be forever beyond human potential are there any alternatives that might prove to be better suited to our needs?

Eastern philosophies have long focussed on harmony as a core and central value. Harmony has the merit of being of being within the range of human potential. Thus, it is both attainable and, I would assert, desirable. Would humans be better off focussing on learning how to live together rather than continually attempting the impossible?

This is a whole subject in itself. For most of the 20th century, scientists thought it possible to be completely objective during observation but ultimately discovered it is impossible...even at the most basic level of physics. For example, the splitting of subatomic particules has reached the point where the matter is smaller than the wavelength of light. And attempting to photograph anything at the moment of splitting is influences by the presence of the film to record the event!

I think understanding is asymptotic. A point you can approach forever but never reach. If it were possible to know everything then the universe would not be infinite and the person who knew it all would be omniscient (i.e., God).

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 2:04:04 AM

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FR

"If it were possible to know everything then the universe would not be infinite "

I think you should snip that statement right there. Flawlessly logical, to a fault almost. It's really a good case for atheism. Either that or our flawed concept of infinity.

T

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 3:44:37 AM

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quote:

Billions of people worship and are religious. This is a fact. That they are distracted from experiencing life directly is my opinion based on the fact. And yes, some of them very likely have slipped on some ice at some point in their lives and had a direct experience of living.

Some have never seen ice to have that ability to slip. Some have given birth and had an experience to live beyond which you cannot experience merely being a man. imagine that!

quote:

Socrates once said, "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool...shun him. But he who knows not and knows that he knows not is a wise man...follow him." You probably think I'm the fool whereas I know that I know not. But I would not want anyone following me. Much better for everyone to find truth for themselves. That's really all I am saying here. Whether they do or not is up to them.

I do not think you are foolish. What i do find, in my opinion, is that you are extremely judgemental, and you dont even realize it.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 3:48:39 AM

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quote:

Nice find. I'm not sure what your point is by posting that with my quote. Can you elaborate?

There was a news article last week that a tooth and finger bone was found in a Siberian cave that does not match Homo Sapiens at all and suggests there was yet another branch of human evolution that went extinct in addition to Neanderthals.

Two point.

One, science is constantly contradicting itself with "new finds" and "discoveries".

quote:

Historically, civilization began in 5 independent areas around the world all within a few centuries of each other...China, the Andes, the Indus Valley (modern Pakistan), Central America, and the Fertile Crescent (Israel and Jordon down to central Iraq).

This "find" suggests otherwise... off by 200,000 years... more than just a few centuries.

Two, i dont see religious people going nuts over these finds, or any of the others. They merely accept with grace and continue about their lives.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/7/2011 3:49:10 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 5:01:04 AM

RCdc

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quote:

But first, I never said I wasn't one of the ignorant people so please put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.

As I am the person who believed you ignorant (stay with me though, as on reflection, I have altered my mind), I take it I should be smoking

I want to make something clear. I never said that you did not consider yourself ignorant, I simply said what I observed. I was responding to your statement that people tend towards a pessimistic view, rather than optimism in people. We would come to an impasse as you seem to relate ignorance to simple education(forgive me if I have that incorrectly). See for me, education is something that anyone can have should that person genuiningly wish to understand whatever it is that they decide to confront or discuss but you haven't shown in your initial post a desire to understand religion or any alternatives other than what you already know. So in all, maybe I was incorrect believing you to be ignorant, but actually bigoted. And that isn't a pleasent word to use, so please do not take offense as it isn't meant to be confrontational... it's just the best word I can find to use right now.

The issue isn't one of being judgemental (as I have seen you accused of) or of an opposing view or even taking a view that may come across as controversial - I do hope that you do not take my initial post as just a personal attack, although on reflection I can see how it might be interpreted, so if you would like an apology and to start on a clean slate, it's all cool with me... but as you have explained that you posted without malice, the same goes in return.

But as has been already asked, what do you expect the pope to say regarding the big bang? On the whole religious leaders will follow the tenets of their belief and that's one of two things in this case - either the big bang and evolution isn't true or that it is true and therefore, Gods design.

What I never understand, on threads like these, is the desire to attack religious belief while using intelligence and education as a factor. While no malice was intended, surely you can see just how prejudiced your words could come across?

This is why I am neither be religious nor irreligious, because both are as faulty as each other. And Peon said it so beautifully I cannot even attempt to do anything but QFT.

quote:

I honestly don't think most people realise just how much irrational faith they have, nor how crucial it is that they maintain that faith.

_____________________________

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 9:30:51 AM

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The Pope said that? Who knew? Oh, wait. Everybody.

It takes about 20 seconds to find out that the Big Bang theory began with a Belgian Roman Catholic priest.

To claim that science and religion are somehow irreconcilable requires the creation of a wholly fictional straw man who only looks believable if you just don't know much about your target.

It's a bit tiring when people who pretend to be waving the banner of science demonstrate how little they know about something they want to attack, and it doesn't do the cause of science any good.

The irony is that that those extremists on both sides, anti-science and anti-faith, have so much in common with each other, in what they don't know, and in their zeal to tell others about it.

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 10:45:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Nice find. I'm not sure what your point is by posting that with my quote. Can you elaborate?

There was a news article last week that a tooth and finger bone was found in a Siberian cave that does not match Homo Sapiens at all and suggests there was yet another branch of human evolution that went extinct in addition to Neanderthals.

Two point.

One, science is constantly contradicting itself with "new finds" and "discoveries".

quote:

Historically, civilization began in 5 independent areas around the world all within a few centuries of each other...China, the Andes, the Indus Valley (modern Pakistan), Central America, and the Fertile Crescent (Israel and Jordon down to central Iraq).

This "find" suggests otherwise... off by 200,000 years... more than just a few centuries.

Two, i dont see religious people going nuts over these finds, or any of the others. They merely accept with grace and continue about their lives.

How does this find have anything to do with the rise of civilisation? That was a later development, surely?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 12:28:52 PM

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The accepted scientific theory is that Homo sapiens originated in Africa and migrated out of the continent. Gopher said if the remains are definitively linked to modern human's ancestors, it could mean that modern man in fact originated in what is now Israel.

If the difference had been a few thousand years, i could see your point. 200,000 years older.... no wonder why they are so excited.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 12:49:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

"If it were possible to know everything then the universe would not be infinite "

I think you should snip that statement right there. Flawlessly logical, to a fault almost. It's really a good case for atheism. Either that or our flawed concept of infinity.

T

Its internally flawless logic, but is predicated on the assumption that the universe is infinite. From what we know, it isnt.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 1:01:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The accepted scientific theory is that Homo sapiens originated in Africa and migrated out of the continent. Gopher said if the remains are definitively linked to modern human's ancestors, it could mean that modern man in fact originated in what is now Israel.

If the difference had been a few thousand years, i could see your point. 200,000 years older.... no wonder why they are so excited.

I take your point. Of course, it isn't necessary that what they've found and early cro magnons shared the same environment, is it? I'm sure a case could be made that you're more likely to get evolutionary offshots like that developing from a shared ancestor in environments where they aren't in competition with the ape that rules the world...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 1:05:12 PM

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The evidence they have found, so far, is only a tooth. They are hoping to find bones in future digs. Could be they find nothing at all. And what you say could very well be true. But science is not exact, by any stretch... nor is religion... by any stretch... they both make assumptions and guesses based upon the facts as they seem them.

Its all in the interpretation. For either one to lable the other "stupid" to me is just another interpretation... and not an intelligent one.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 1:10:21 PM

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When did I say that?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 1:17:08 PM

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LOL... you didnt.... someone else did... your question sparked this exchange.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 1:22:16 PM

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Fair enough.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 3:37:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Nice find. I'm not sure what your point is by posting that with my quote. Can you elaborate?

There was a news article last week that a tooth and finger bone was found in a Siberian cave that does not match Homo Sapiens at all and suggests there was yet another branch of human evolution that went extinct in addition to Neanderthals.

Two point.

One, science is constantly contradicting itself with "new finds" and "discoveries".

quote:

Historically, civilization began in 5 independent areas around the world all within a few centuries of each other...China, the Andes, the Indus Valley (modern Pakistan), Central America, and the Fertile Crescent (Israel and Jordon down to central Iraq).

This "find" suggests otherwise... off by 200,000 years... more than just a few centuries.

Two, i dont see religious people going nuts over these finds, or any of the others. They merely accept with grace and continue about their lives.

Hey there,
Wow! I was up till after 3 AM last night responding to this thread and didn't realize it until I signed off. Never realized the time.

I think we are having a good exchange here. I feel positive about it at least.

Your comment about science contradicting itself is often encountered. Science is a "work in progress" that is never completed. Scientists always want new information to refine their theories. So science does not contradict anything it puts out there. When something is discovered that's significant enough it is totally possible and acceptable that it could turn current theories on their ear. But most often new discoveries usually create the need for adjustments to established theories.

It wasn't until after World War 2 that solid evidence (in real time) was discovered in the Atlantic Ocean to support the theory of plate tectonics (the shifting of the continents all over the world). This was yet another example of how discoveries are quite often accidental. It wasn't a scientist that made the discovery but the U.S. Navy. The Navy department had begun a program to map the undersea floor using sonar for submarine navigation.

What was found was a ridge very similar to a mountain range that reaches from near the southern reaches of the South Atlantic all the way up to Iceland where it is high enough to create the island we know as Iceland and continues northward. On either side of the ridge they found magnetic patterns in the rock that match each other perfectly. What's more, they found that the magnetic patterns reverse alternately on both sides. This suggests that the earth's magnetic field reverses itself at regular intervals over great periods of time. Prior to this discovery the idea that contintents actually move was considered far fetched even by scientists. Today it is considered factual because in the past 50 years or so enough experiments have been conducted that prove the continental plates are actually moving. The Atlantic Ocean is spread east and west at about the same rate as your fingernails grow.

Regarding Homo Sapiens...

The advent of civilization has nothing to do with the development and arrival of Homo Sapiens. Excluding the find you mentioned, evidence of Homo Sapiens is dated at approximately 200,000 years. It will almost certainly be adjusted as new, older fossils are found.

Evidence of civilizations comes from studying the remains of ancient settlements and firepits where pieces of animal bone and seeds are found from being cooked. These fragments give scientists an idea of what the people of the time were eating. These ancient settlements are compared to other firepits found in the same regions but without evidence of any permanent dwellings. The firepits are examined for content and dated using carbon, argon, and other elements where the steady breakdown of the element can be measured to find out how old it is. Carbon dating can only work back to about 60,000 years due to the rapid rate of radioactive decay. For this reason, other elements such as potassium-argon are used because they can accurately measure the age of rock back to well over 3 billion years.

Scientists have determined that civilizations began in the 5 areas I previously mentioned using these and other techniques. If new discoveries are made, the theory will be adjusted accordingly.

Oh, I almost forgot...your example of a woman giving birth is excellent. I will never experience that but I have had my share of direct experiences and they were not always invoked by great pain. I had one playing dodgeball in high school that I will never forget. It was like I was outside myself watching me play. Everything seemed to be happening in slow motion and I was able to move almost like it was a dance...leaping and dodging balls coming at me while simultaneously throwing balls back. It lasted for several minutes and at the time I had no idea what it was. I was the only one left on my team and there were 5 guys remaining on the other side. Everyone watching was stunned. It was quite a rush.

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 1/7/2011 4:20:26 PM >

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 3:52:35 PM

hertz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere
Why didn't the catholic church make this announcement 100 years ago? Why doesn't the bible mention any of this? Think about that.

100 years ago Science didn't mention it either. Think about that.

Bingo :)

Bingo?

Science grows incrementally. The supposed word of the all knowing god was handed down centuries ago. Genesis could very easily have talked about the big bang.

Yes, this is what we're talking about.

Why does the Bible need to mention the Big Bang? It's only a theory.

(in reply to wittynamehere)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 3:57:51 PM

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Im glad you dont view my posts as attacking you. I definitely did not intend that to be the case.

My example of the tooth was deliberate. Its twice as old as anything previously found. The argument could be made that a group that was twice as old would have established their own civilizations. Again, time will tell. It is an exciting prospect though!

And, while childbirth can be a painful experience, it isnt always so. And, something i realize most men dont understand, the pain is soon forgotten to be replaced with the wonderous joy of having actually created a life. Most women dont even remember the pain until the next labor pain (meaning the next time they hit L&D)

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:02:09 PM

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~FR~

Once, I was Catholic. At the age of 13, I left the church in a huff because its views on women as spiritual leaders. I believe that there is *something* beyond human intelligence. Call it nature, in my book. More powerful than humans; as capricious as the god in holy texts. If the Pope believes that god created a scientific phenomenon, I do not really care. Why? He is not my spiritual or intellectual anything, particularly because this pope believes that molesting little boys in the vestry is a "grave sin" on par with ordaining women as priests. I couldn't believe he wasn't JOKING about that. However, he was not.

I do not have a problem with believers, per se, and I wish that some atheists would not presume to take the higher and more educated ground just because religion is a human construct. If humans have, for thousands of years, worshipped a god, then obviously, most of us are genetically imbued with a "god gene" that encourages believe in a higher power. For atheists who believe in science, you should respect this. Unless a religious person is trampling on your rights, what do you care? At the same time, the religious should realize that their constant proselytizing and literal belief in what is to be taken figuratively defies logic and sometimes common decency.

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One thing is clear to me: We, as human beings, must be willing to accept people who are different from ourselves.
~~Barbara Jordan

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:04:47 PM

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Actually, it's better than "burn the unbelievers!" I've always been amused at the resistance to science. If one wants to believe in god, what's the matter with believing he set up some great puzzles. Evolution doesn't even try to tell us where life came from, just how it is shaped by environment. The Big Bang isn't antithetical to a god. In fact most religions claim everything started off with some sort of "order" or "action from above." Frankly, I tend to lean on one of the South Sea religions that say a couple of gods were banging and we came from the flying sperm.

"Big Bang" indeed.

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