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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:56:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Oh great - another fucking militant atheist proselyte...bugger off

Listen to people long enough and they will tell you who they are. Thanks...you did it in 9 words. But I do appreciate your contribution...it takes all kinds.

And that's as far as I will go talking to you if that's how you conduct yourself in a forum.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:58:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It stands for Fast Reply. Meaning its not a reply to anyone, just a general reply to the thread itself.

Thanks

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 9:25:04 AM

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Since I mentioned Sam Harris in one of my posts, I thought I would tell everyone here they can hear what the man has to say on Youtube. The entire book is there to listen to with Sam Harris reading it. But for the purposes of this thread you can listen to the segment, "Sam Harris: Letter to A Christian Nation (Entire Book) Pt. 1" which includes a note to the listener in which Sam Harris summarizes his points. The segment is 10 minutes long. I agree with what he has to say and had worked out in my own mind many of his points long before I ever heard of him.

Although meant to be funny, you can also watch the movie, "Religilous" by Bill Maher. This film focuses primarily on some of the more extreme examples of how people interpret religion but is still worth watching. It is funny but also a bit frightening when you see just how skewed people can become in their beliefs.

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"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 9:48:09 AM

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When all you can see is the extremes.... sighs.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 10:42:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

It is funny but also a bit frightening when you see just how skewed people can become in their beliefs.

We don't need to go to YouTube to see "just how skewed people can become in their beliefs".

But you could stand to work on being funnier.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/8/2011 10:43:34 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 1:01:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
The atheist is not open to the possibilities of both, because the mind is closed to the possibility of a God.

He could be. He could be the sort that believes that he might one day believe somethiing else. ;-)

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 1:14:47 PM

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No need. I said it clearly, and a half a dozen other people have pointed out the obvious.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 5:39:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

It is funny but also a bit frightening when you see just how skewed people can become in their beliefs.

We don't need to go to YouTube to see "just how skewed people can become in their beliefs".

But you could stand to work on being funnier.

K.

Okay, how's this for starters?

A pirate walks into a bar and the bartender says, "Hey, do you know there's a steering wheel hanging off your crotch?"

The pirate replies, "Arrrrr...yes, and it's driving me nuts."

Maybe someone will get a chuckle or two, maybe not. But hey...I gotta start somewhere...right?

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 6:16:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

When all you can see is the extremes.... sighs.

Yes I agree...but then when you take things to the edge are you not talking about extremes?

I'm also sighing. I was hoping some of the responders here might want to talk about the various examples I have offered but instead the whole thing has gone sideways with people's issues about how I write and how I appear close-minded. I'm afraid the whole thing has fallen into a hole of sorts and I'm not sure if we can raise ourselves up but who knows until we try.

So maybe we should try a different approach. What do you think of the pope's message? All of you...not just tazzygirl.

Here's a clip from the article I read containing his words. You can find it on MSNBC for those who may think I'm making things up. Just do a search for "pope big bang epiphany" on the site and you'll get it.

*****

"VATICAN CITY — God's mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said Thursday.

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St. Peter's Basilica on the feast day."

*****

From what has been stated by others in the thread...I guess we can say God's mind was being revealed by Georges Lemaître when he first proposed the Big Bang theory. Does that sound about right?

Why do you think we should reject the theory that the universe was created by chance? I wonder if the pope gave a reason in his speech. Unfortunately the full text is not in the article. But we can talk about it at least.

What profound something do you think we are invited to read into it (the universe)? Do you think the pope is saying we should read the wisdom of the creator and the inexhaustible creativity of God into the universe? What do you think he means by saying that?

I'll try to talk about this without sounding like a know-it-all. I invite your thoughts.

Editted to add:

In a continuing effort to add food for thought to the conversation without coming across in an offending manner, I thought adding the following passage about Sam Harris might help make the discussion more paletable and hopefully satisfy those who take offence by how I say things.

*****

While often defined as an atheist, Harris asserts that the term is not necessary. His position is that "atheism" is not a worldview or a philosophy, but the "destruction of bad ideas." He states that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised." He compares modern religious beliefs to the myths of the Ancient Greeks, which were once accepted as fact but which are obsolete today. In a January 2007 interview with PBS, Harris said, "We don't have a word for not believing in Zeus, which is to say we are all atheists in respect to Zeus. And we don't have a word for not being an astrologer." He goes on to say that the term will be retired only when "we all just achieve a level of intellectual honesty where we are no longer going to pretend to be certain about things we are not certain about."

*****

Some of you may see in the last sentence the same point I have been trying to make in the discussion up till now.

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 1/8/2011 7:15:44 PM >

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 7:56:07 PM

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I have faith therefore for ME, I'm certain God exists. I have no doubts, I'm not a disbeliever, I never feel I need to question it.

I personally have no problems with the pope's message and find it to be pretty much in life with my beliefs.

So being that I believe in God and that that universe was not created by chance but by a God with a plan for us all and everything in the universe, of course I would not find any problems with the pope's message.

I would say if you don't believe in what he says then don't be a catholic or probably not even a christian. No one forces it on you. You have the choice to tune in or tune out. His message isn't for those who aren't catholic. If you're not catholic then so what? Ignore it.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:20:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
No one forces it on you.

Unless of course you were born into a Catholic family in which case it may well have been forced on you.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:22:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
No one forces it on you.

Unless of course you were born into a Catholic family in which case it may well have been forced on you.

and when you are an adult or even younger, you have the choice to walk away.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 9:33:17 PM

Zevar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

From the MSNBC article "God was behind Big Bang, Pope says":

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St. Peter's Basilica on the feast day

As adults we have the right and ability to think about religion as we come to understand and believe about our faith in an autonomous personal manner. I am a prime example of having made the choice to disengage with Catholism as an adult, about 30 years ago to date. I made the choice to disengage with the entire Roman Catholic ideologies that were expected of me as a young lad to believe. I have not regretted my choice to disengage with a religion that I cannot endorse by way of my choice of not living it daily.

It is quite common when the Pope issues a mandate from the Vatican all of the devout Roman Catholics tend to listen, as they believe it is liken to having heard God speak through the Holy See. I have no doubt the Pope truly believes that God orchestrated Creation and that the Big Bang is simply a bogus theoretical scientific world evil that serves to only teach evil, which hinders everyone from converting to Catholism. You know, the One true and Apostolic Church that endorses so many evils I have lost count.

Big Bang or not. I have my own personal spirituality and faith that works for me. The Pope has his. I can only hope that every person chooses to think for themselves when related to any subject and especially when related to Church Headship Authorities sending down a message from on HIGH to the people, as the Pope believes to be the Holy Father. Delusional at best to think of yourself as the incarnate of God, sent to communicate to the people regarding what God has spoken and demands of everyone in the Catholic Church to obey without question, of course.

To each their own, aye! Creation is what it is for each one on an independent level. How else should it be? Surely not the Pope said so thus now I must believe more religious mandates. In the Roman Catholic Church you do not question the Pope or what is mandated from the Vatican, including the Big Bang on HIGH mandate to the servants of the Pope. Thankfully I remain disengaged from all of the holier than thou jargon. The highest faculty given to humanity is the ability to think and reason, which I have come to discover and embrace fully over the years. I say, think for yourself in all instances.

Take care!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 1/8/2011 9:36:39 PM >

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 11:27:46 PM

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quote:

Yes I agree...but then when you take things to the edge are you not talking about extremes?

But i dont live on the edge, do you?

quote:

"VATICAN CITY — God's mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said Thursday.

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St. Peter's Basilica on the feast day."

Maybe we are reading this differently? I see the Pope saying how the Big Bag wasnt an accident, but meant by design.

quote:

Why do you think we should reject the theory that the universe was created by chance?

Why are you so insistant that it was created by chance? Just a curious question.

quote:

What profound something do you think we are invited to read into it (the universe)? Do you think the pope is saying we should read the wisdom of the creator and the inexhaustible creativity of God into the universe? What do you think he means by saying that?

I certainly cannot speak for the Pope. I have been out of the Church for many, many year. But here are his words.... "Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," I think, and this is only my best guess, that the Pope literally means looking around, earth, the other planets, the other systems... was it all by chance? really? that we all came together on this one rock and no other? Just chance?

quote:

While often defined as an atheist, Harris asserts that the term is not necessary. His position is that "atheism" is not a worldview or a philosophy, but the "destruction of bad ideas." He states that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised." He compares modern religious beliefs to the myths of the Ancient Greeks, which were once accepted as fact but which are obsolete today. In a January 2007 interview with PBS, Harris said, "We don't have a word for not believing in Zeus, which is to say we are all atheists in respect to Zeus. And we don't have a word for not being an astrologer." He goes on to say that the term will be retired only when "we all just achieve a level of intellectual honesty where we are no longer going to pretend to be certain about things we are not certain about."

My thoughts about Harris... ahem... are not kind. He is arrogant, and thats the nicest thing i can say about him. I dont put too much stock into someone who feels the need to be superior by way of telling others how inferior they are.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 12:26:25 AM

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It's a gentle yielding to a theistic concept painted over reality in a way that is moderately inarguable.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 1/9/2011 12:27:51 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 6:11:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
No one forces it on you.

Unless of course you were born into a Catholic family in which case it may well have been forced on you.

and when you are an adult or even younger, you have the choice to walk away.

Yes but in practice it's not really that simple. Walking away likely means breaking ties and/or experiencing conflict with immediate family, friends, and community and possibly suffering the emotional distress of being an outcast. This brings up an important aspect of religion and I think it can be seen in some of the replies not just here but in any discussion on the topic. People have their personal persception but then there's the overall community level persception, too. A social norm so to speak that has a power that is felt by the individual members comprising the community.

Earlier you shared your own take on religion as you practice it. I thank you for that and please don't take what I say next as some kind of attack for it is not. You simply make a good example of many, many people in the present who pick and choose what they practice.

This flies in the face of reason and attracts the attention of people like me.

If God exists and the bible is the word of God, and someone decides for themselves which parts to accept or reject, then aren't they essentially re-writing the bible? Strictly speaking it means your version trumps God. That seems to be what's happening with anyone who is not orthodox in the modern world and living in a culture that allows it.

_____________________________

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"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:02:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

b]From the MSNBC article "God was behind Big Bang, Pope says":

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe,"

I'm going to help you out here:

Modus Operandi.... That's Latin, the Pope uses Latin, all Catholics used too.

Listen, my bet is that their is a God, at least as we could understand it. A higher power, someone or something with the ability to inspire the "Big Bang". I also believe that this God has yet to be truly defined as he, she or it actually exists. The chance that this God has been to the good ole Earth is possible, however unlikely you might find that to be. I just doubt that he has been accurately described by our meager human mind.................yet.

The fact is that through the ages man (gender neutral) himself has used various storylines, myths or legends to exert control over the masses or at least those around him. The Catholics, thanks in part to the strength and scope of the Roman Empire have been the best thus far at concocting the greatest story. Hell most of the western religions have evolved from Catholicism, hense the theory of evolution

.

I'm not sure that religion serves such an awful purpose. Organization and direction seems to be necessary for human society to exist and not wipe itself out and to this day most all of us are little more than superstitious animals searching for nuts and berries.

quote:

Ye men of Athens,I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions,I found an altar with this inscription,. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

-Bible (NewTestament)
TOTHE UNKNOWN GODActs of the Apostles17:22^3.

Edited to get rid of all those pretty boy, attention whore, colors.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/9/2011 7:14:57 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:18:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

From the MSNBC article "God was behind Big Bang, Pope says":

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St. Peter's Basilica on the feast day

As adults we have the right and ability to think about religion as we come to understand and believe about our faith in an autonomous personal manner. I am a prime example of having made the choice to disengage with Catholism as an adult, about 30 years ago to date. I made the choice to disengage with the entire Roman Catholic ideologies that were expected of me as a young lad to believe. I have not regretted my choice to disengage with a religion that I cannot endorse by way of my choice of not living it daily.

It is quite common when the Pope issues a mandate from the Vatican all of the devout Roman Catholics tend to listen, as they believe it is liken to having heard God speak through the Holy See. I have no doubt the Pope truly believes that God orchestrated Creation and that the Big Bang is simply a bogus theoretical scientific world evil that serves to only teach evil, which hinders everyone from converting to Catholism. You know, the One true and Apostolic Church that endorses so many evils I have lost count.

Big Bang or not. I have my own personal spirituality and faith that works for me. The Pope has his. I can only hope that every person chooses to think for themselves when related to any subject and especially when related to Church Headship Authorities sending down a message from on HIGH to the people, as the Pope believes to be the Holy Father. Delusional at best to think of yourself as the incarnate of God, sent to communicate to the people regarding what God has spoken and demands of everyone in the Catholic Church to obey without question, of course.

To each their own, aye! Creation is what it is for each one on an independent level. How else should it be? Surely not the Pope said so thus now I must believe more religious mandates. In the Roman Catholic Church you do not question the Pope or what is mandated from the Vatican, including the Big Bang on HIGH mandate to the servants of the Pope. Thankfully I remain disengaged from all of the holier than thou jargon. The highest faculty given to humanity is the ability to think and reason, which I have come to discover and embrace fully over the years. I say, think for yourself in all instances.

Take care!

I was enrolled in Sunday School at age 7 and immediately rejected the story of Jesus. It was the most bizarre thing I ever heard...that was my initial impression. I also remember having this feeling of being pushed to accept it in spite of the questions I tried to ask about parts of the story that didn't make sense to me. After a month or so, I told my mother I didn't like Sunday School and did not want to go anymore. Thankfully she said okay and stopped taking me. So I escaped the "mold" at an early age.

About a year later I started reading books from the library on dinosaurs because I liked to draw and used the pictures in the books for reference. But what I read in those books quickly took priority and one day it hit me there are no dinosaurs in the bible. Again, I started asking questions because here I was getting two conflicting world views. You might say I had my own little "Inherit the Wind" moment.

Obviously I chose the scientific view over religion's but what really fascinated me more than anything else and still does to this day is how people can and do reject the scientific view but can't give solid reasons for why in the same way science provides solid reasons for rejecting the religious view. Their answers were pretty much like saying, "because" and nothing more. Of course as I grew to an adult the whole thing has grown in complexity as I learned more and more about both world views.

You could say I have now answered the big question for myself but still have this itch to scratch about everyone who doesn't agree with science. Many people here think I'm closed minded and I'm sorry my words have come across that way but what they are really experiencing is my persistance in trying to find the keystone piece of information that makes someone reject evidence when it's right in front of them. To me, simply choosing to do so is not a valid reason. I can understand when someone has never been exposed to science and only know religious text but in the developed world with all the scientific evidence that has been amassed over the centuries it really is amazing.

I wish to talk to people who hold to religion and go into it with them but it's sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. For as soon as I put scientific points on the table that challenge their view, the whole thing turns into an argument where both sides are not using the same set of tools for conducting the debate. Science is founded on experiments and evidence, logical reasoning, and strict analysis. Religion is founded on faith in words alone. Some offer life experiences they cannot explain and attribute to God but that is not a strong argument and if done in other topics of debate would be rejected outright...but for social reasons, it seems people of faith are in some sort of special category where the rules don't apply.

It's great for people to say to each his own. I understand that. But at its most basic level, religion must by definition be universal if it is the truth. So if we can all cherry-pick what we like to believe, where's the truth?

I really hope this post is not received as me saying I know it all. If you don't wish to engage what I am in pursuit of and are offended, please accept my apology and refrain from adding snide remarks. It's not where I'm coming from.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:22:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

b]From the MSNBC article "God was behind Big Bang, Pope says":

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe,"

I'm going to help you out here:

Modus Operandi.... That's Latin, the Pope uses Latin, all Catholics used too.

Listen, my bet is that their is a God, at least as we could understand it. A higher power, someone or something with the ability to inspire the "Big Bang". I also believe that this God has yet to be truly defined as he, she or it actually exists. The chance that this God has been to the good ole Earth is possible, however unlikely you might find that to be. I just doubt that he has been accurately described by our meager human mind.................yet.

The fact is that through the ages man (gender neutral) himself has used various storylines, myths or legends to exert control over the masses or at least those around him. The Catholics, thanks in part to the strength and scope of the Roman Empire have been the best thus far at concocting the greatest story. Hell most of the western religions have evolved from Catholicism, hense the theory of evolution .

I'm not sure that religion serves such an awful purpose. Organization and direction seems to be necessary for human society to exist and not wipe itself out and to this day most all of us are little more than superstitious animals searching for nuts and berries.

quote:

Ye men of Athens,I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions,I found an altar with this inscription,. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

-Bible (NewTestament)
TOTHE UNKNOWN GODActs of the Apostles17:22^3.

Edited to get rid of all those pretty boy, attention whore, colors.

Thanks for your thoughts. I was writing a reply (see above) while you were writing yours so our messages crossed paths in the mail. My reply may make my purpose here more clear (I hope).

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to xBullx)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:46:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Yes I agree...but then when you take things to the edge are you not talking about extremes?

But i dont live on the edge, do you?

quote:

"VATICAN CITY — God's mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said Thursday.

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St. Peter's Basilica on the feast day."

Maybe we are reading this differently? I see the Pope saying how the Big Bag wasnt an accident, but meant by design.

quote:

Why do you think we should reject the theory that the universe was created by chance?

Why are you so insistant that it was created by chance? Just a curious question.

quote:

What profound something do you think we are invited to read into it (the universe)? Do you think the pope is saying we should read the wisdom of the creator and the inexhaustible creativity of God into the universe? What do you think he means by saying that?

I certainly cannot speak for the Pope. I have been out of the Church for many, many year. But here are his words.... "Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," I think, and this is only my best guess, that the Pope literally means looking around, earth, the other planets, the other systems... was it all by chance? really? that we all came together on this one rock and no other? Just chance?

quote:

While often defined as an atheist, Harris asserts that the term is not necessary. His position is that "atheism" is not a worldview or a philosophy, but the "destruction of bad ideas." He states that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised." He compares modern religious beliefs to the myths of the Ancient Greeks, which were once accepted as fact but which are obsolete today. In a January 2007 interview with PBS, Harris said, "We don't have a word for not believing in Zeus, which is to say we are all atheists in respect to Zeus. And we don't have a word for not being an astrologer." He goes on to say that the term will be retired only when "we all just achieve a level of intellectual honesty where we are no longer going to pretend to be certain about things we are not certain about."

My thoughts about Harris... ahem... are not kind. He is arrogant, and thats the nicest thing i can say about him. I dont put too much stock into someone who feels the need to be superior by way of telling others how inferior they are.

Hi,
In a way I suppose I do live on the edge. I'm like a tree standing alone out in a field. I can look over at the edge of the field and see both the trees and the forest. But all the trees in the forest cannot see the forest for the trees. At least, that's how I experience it.

My insistance is based on scientific evidence...something I can challenge and get results from that either prove or disprove their validity. But as you may find below...my insistance is really persistence in answering questions I have about those who are religious in spite of science.

I think what you wrote about the pope's meaning is a good one. The universe is certainly vast enough to overwhelm anyone contemplating it. But that's as far as I can go with it. From there, all you need to do is start looking for the patterns (patterns within patterns) to see how what appears to be order is really the result of chaos. A simple example...moons orbit planets, planets orbit stars, stars orbit galaxies, and galaxies are moving outward from a central point in the universe (presumabley the point of the Big Bang). This is over-simplified at the galactic level but essentially what astronomers have been able to track.

On to Harris. Okay you don't like him. It's your impression "...he feels the need to be superior by way of telling others how inferior they are." It is not necessarily what he is doing. But what do you think of what he said? What do you think of his reference to "intellectual honesty" as it applies to the current state of religion in the modern world? Or do you simply decline to comment?

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to tazzygirl)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang

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