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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:05:54 PM

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Im curious as to who is resisting science.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:08:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

The Pope said that? Who knew? Oh, wait. Everybody.

It takes about 20 seconds to find out that the Big Bang theory began with a Belgian Roman Catholic priest.

To claim that science and religion are somehow irreconcilable requires the creation of a wholly fictional straw man who only looks believable if you just don't know much about your target.

It's a bit tiring when people who pretend to be waving the banner of science demonstrate how little they know about something they want to attack, and it doesn't do the cause of science any good.

The irony is that that those extremists on both sides, anti-science and anti-faith, have so much in common with each other, in what they don't know, and in their zeal to tell others about it.

The case of Georges Lemaitre in no way establishes that science and religion mesh together seamlessly. The man was a brilliant scientist looking into physics who also happened to be a priest. I will give you another one just to offer an olive branch as they say. Gregor Mendel was a scientist and monk who discovered genetic inheritance.

I see these as examples of the validity of science slowly permeating all parts of society. Better yet, I would say these are examples of how genuine truth eventually overcomes all attempts to deny it. Saying religion has credibility because a priest who is also a scientist made a significant discovery is the same as saying a shampoo product is good because a famous football player endorses it on television. It's known as establishing credibility by association and has been an advertising tactic for decades. But let me be clear...I am in no way saying that is what the two religious scientists intended. They were both simply focused on exploring an observation they had made.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:18:34 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

So the pope sez the universe is a god fart?
A genius is found guilty of heliocentricity by the inquisition, is imprisoned by the pope for 10 years, goes blind. But at least he gets an apology almost 400 years later.
Maybe in another 500 years, women will be people!

And you do not think that politics and calling the pope a simpleton had ANYTHING to do with it?

And there were a few other issues.

House arrest is not the same as being clapped in irons in the dungeon.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:30:55 PM

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quote:

But let me be clear...I am in no way saying that is what the two religious scientists intended. They were both simply focused on exploring an observation they had made.

These are not the only two, and, of course, you know that. There are many examples of scientists who also held religious convictions. Being religious does not exempt someone from wanting to know all there is... and thats one of the problems with your statements.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:35:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Could you provide scientific proof, or just a logical argument, that shows it's better to be alive than dead?

Being alive as a self-reflective sentient creature means the existence of a mental value-creation system. Therefore, "value" exists by virtue of being alive (as we are), whereas no value exists while being dead (because no value-creation system exists).

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:48:26 PM

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I will add one more post here to ask everyone who reads it to consider something.

If you speak english and go to the store to buy some poultry, odds are you will buy what in english is called a "chicken". But if you are Hispanic you will go to the store and buy "pollo". In French it would be "poulet". And so on.

Now, as one of the posters here mentioned, there is something out there much bigger than us humans. What it is nobody really knows. It's a mystery...a very big unknown.

Tens of thousands of years ago when humans were living isolated from each other in various parts of the world and civilization developed, the people in these isolated regions came together and developed cultures common to each other due to their close proximity. They also began to physically evolve common traits which we think of today as ethnicities (asian, african, caucasion, native american, etc.). These people all had the same collection of questions about life and the world independent of each other. The object of their inquiry was the "unknown". So over time, they developed explanations...stories to provide answers. Writing did not exist so this was all told by word of mouth and passed from one generation to the next. At some point, the fact that the people themselves created these stories was very likely forgotten and as even more time passed, the stories and the people who were charged with keeping them alive in their memory took on authority.

But I'm getting off track here.

What I want you to consider is that the big "unknown" that has always been there is like that poultry at the store. And the religions we see around the world today and throughout history are the label put on it by each culture. They are all stories talking about a great mystery but they are not literally the truth. Is this so difficult to understand?

I forgot to add that based on my example, it's perfectly correct for me to hold up the bird and say this is not a chicken...it's only what we call it in english. Likewise, I can say all religions are wrong because they are not literally the truth...only what we choose to believe.

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 1/7/2011 5:06:04 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 4:59:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

But let me be clear...I am in no way saying that is what the two religious scientists intended. They were both simply focused on exploring an observation they had made.

These are not the only two, and, of course, you know that. There are many examples of scientists who also held religious convictions. Being religious does not exempt someone from wanting to know all there is... and thats one of the problems with your statements.

I understand how what I say can appear to be coming across that way but I am not talking about specific people but the population in general. Of course there are people who are religious who want to know more and I'm sure when they come across information that challenges their belief they must make a personal choice as to which direction to take from that point forward. But there are also a significant number of people who have their minds closed or at the very least resistant to any new knowledge about the nature of life. And the position of the church overall is a part of this group...in spite of all the priests who are also scientists.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 5:01:24 PM

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But you are assuming the significant numbers with closed minds are in the majority.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 5:10:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But you are assuming the significant numbers with closed minds are in the majority.

No...you are reading that into what I said. If anything, I believe the numbers are significant enough to be a negative influence on society. A good example would be the conservative relgious folks in Texas who somehow have the power over what goes into textbooks in schools across America. They would love to have creationism taught over evolution. In a way they are not much different than the orthodox Muslims who believe only the Quran should be taught in schools in Afghanistan. They would have us go backwards in our understanding of the world.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 6:53:41 PM

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Ah, there's that straw man of yours again. No, it has nothing to do with football players or shampoo. You had to put words, your words, into the Pope's mouth, and all you've said so far, is that anyone with faith is ignorant because...well, that's where it gets a bit hazy...because, I gather, "99.9999%" of people must be "conditioned" because they have different beliefs than you, and are therefore ignorant.

And if they happen to advance science, why, of course, it's an example "of how genuine truth eventually overcomes all attempts to deny it."

Wow. Ol' Georges wasn't much good at denying genuine truth in postulating the Big Bang, huh? Poor guy.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 7:15:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
I understand how what I say can appear to be coming across that way but I am not talking about specific people but the population in general. Of course there are people who are religious who want to know more and I'm sure when they come across information that challenges their belief they must make a personal choice as to which direction to take from that point forward. But there are also a significant number of people who have their minds closed or at the very least resistant to any new knowledge about the nature of life. And the position of the church overall is a part of this group...in spite of all the priests who are also scientists.

Again, not going to speak regarding organized religion, or the position of 'the church'. It's not My area.

At the same time, I think you might want to consider that those who are in the opposite position of people of faith have just as much of a closed mind on the subject. That's the very difference between the definitions of atheist and agnostic. The atheist is not open to the possibilities of both, because the mind is closed to the possibility of a God. It's more likely the agnostic who is more open-minded, if you would want to call it that.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 7:23:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

all religions are wrong because they are not literally the truth...only what we choose to believe

Unh, what's "wrong" is this peculiar notion you have that religions are to be understood literally.

That's only what you choose to believe.

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/7/2011 7:31:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But you are assuming the significant numbers with closed minds are in the majority.

No...you are reading that into what I said. If anything, I believe the numbers are significant enough to be a negative influence on society. A good example would be the conservative relgious folks in Texas who somehow have the power over what goes into textbooks in schools across America. They would love to have creationism taught over evolution. In a way they are not much different than the orthodox Muslims who believe only the Quran should be taught in schools in Afghanistan. They would have us go backwards in our understanding of the world.

Actually, i read exactly what you posted.

quote:

Of course there are people who are religious who want to know more and I'm sure when they come across information that challenges their belief they must make a personal choice as to which direction to take from that point forward. But there are also a significant number of people who have their minds closed or at the very least resistant to any new knowledge about the nature of life.

But, the conservative religious folks in Texas are in a minority. Not to mention Texas is the only state that has a uniform adoption policy... meaning what happens in one district is what is happening in all districts, no deviation allowed. But other states are not run that way.

So, once again, you are assuming based on lack of knowledge.

I consider myself a religious person. I do not consider myself blinded by religion. I do not believe i am intolerant of the way of science. I accept people who do not believe as i do just as quickly as i accept people who do believe as i do. And its rather upsetting to discover someone with such an intelligent way of thinking seems to also be extremely narrowminded.

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 12:49:29 AM

Arpig

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Oh great - another fucking militant atheist proselyte...bugger off

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 12:55:08 AM

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FR

Pope said Sunday is the sabbath. He outranks God now ?

You gotta be kidding me.

T

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:04:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Pope said Sunday is the sabbath. He outranks God now ?

You gotta be kidding me.

T

There are several posts here that begin with "FR". Can you tell me what that means please?

Thanks

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:06:18 AM

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It stands for Fast Reply. Meaning its not a reply to anyone, just a general reply to the thread itself.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:18:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

Ah, there's that straw man of yours again. No, it has nothing to do with football players or shampoo. You had to put words, your words, into the Pope's mouth, and all you've said so far, is that anyone with faith is ignorant because...well, that's where it gets a bit hazy...because, I gather, "99.9999%" of people must be "conditioned" because they have different beliefs than you, and are therefore ignorant.

And if they happen to advance science, why, of course, it's an example "of how genuine truth eventually overcomes all attempts to deny it."

Wow. Ol' Georges wasn't much good at denying genuine truth in postulating the Big Bang, huh? Poor guy.

I think you are saying several things all at once and have the points you are trying to communicate tied up in a knot. I will try to address what I can glean from it all.

If you read the whole thread you would see that I have not excluded myself from the 99.9999% club. And I didn't say 100% because it is certainly possible that someone could have a "spot on" understanding of reality.

My understanding gets a bit hazy just as yours does when taken to the edge and that is what this conversation is all about.

I really don't understand where your going with the rest of what you said so I'm not going to assume I know what you're talking about and formulate a response. Please feel free to elaborate.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:47:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

all religions are wrong because they are not literally the truth...only what we choose to believe

Unh, what's "wrong" is this peculiar notion you have that religions are to be understood literally.

That's only what you choose to believe.

K.

I speak in general terms and you take it that I am speaking specifically about everyone. That's your error. I'm sure you realize the challenges of trying to discuss this subject strictly through the written word.

I'm not sure how you missed my point in the post you took the quote from. Do you understand my point that a chicken is not a chicken...only what people who speak english call it? The principle of that statement is what I'm trying to say about religion. All religions are a "re-presentation" of the unknown...a place holder if you will. They are not fact. I think that is obvious. If that's hard to swallow I'm sorry.

I do not believe religions should be understood literally and know full well that most people do not. But there are people who do...lots of them...and they are the ones creating havoc in the world. They are the extremists. From that end of the spectrum we can see that people's level of taking religions literally diminishes, like a bell curve. In the book, "Letter to a Christian Nation" Sam Harris makes an excellent point that the danger posed by the extremists is actually being supported by moderates indirectly. The upshot of what he is trying to say is so long as you have a significant portion of a population accepting a religion at any level of literal understanding, they unwittingly foster the potential for extremists to thrive.

Why not own up to the fact that we...none of us...really know the truth and go from there instead of continuing with the myths? I think people who accept that they don't know are less ignorant than people who believe that they do. So in my case, I know there are people who don't know but I also know there are people who believe they do by their actions and words.

The people who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 didn't go to paradise. All they did was incinerate themselves and a lot of other people along with them.

Is that ignorance for me to say that? I seriously doubt it.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/8/2011 8:53:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But you are assuming the significant numbers with closed minds are in the majority.

No...you are reading that into what I said. If anything, I believe the numbers are significant enough to be a negative influence on society. A good example would be the conservative relgious folks in Texas who somehow have the power over what goes into textbooks in schools across America. They would love to have creationism taught over evolution. In a way they are not much different than the orthodox Muslims who believe only the Quran should be taught in schools in Afghanistan. They would have us go backwards in our understanding of the world.

Actually, i read exactly what you posted.

quote:

Of course there are people who are religious who want to know more and I'm sure when they come across information that challenges their belief they must make a personal choice as to which direction to take from that point forward. But there are also a significant number of people who have their minds closed or at the very least resistant to any new knowledge about the nature of life.

But, the conservative religious folks in Texas are in a minority. Not to mention Texas is the only state that has a uniform adoption policy... meaning what happens in one district is what is happening in all districts, no deviation allowed. But other states are not run that way.

So, once again, you are assuming based on lack of knowledge.

I consider myself a religious person. I do not consider myself blinded by religion. I do not believe i am intolerant of the way of science. I accept people who do not believe as i do just as quickly as i accept people who do believe as i do. And its rather upsetting to discover someone with such an intelligent way of thinking seems to also be extremely narrowminded.

I'm going to assume you are aware that every time school books come up for revision the conservative creationist minded folks always try to get creationism plugged into the school books...for the entire country...not just Texas (I think Kansas is another state that is involved in this if I remember right). And you are correct, I am not well versed in this subject but used it as a mild example of how if a minority of people with the wrong understanding get into a position of power, they can turn an entire culture backwards (Nazi Germany is a good example of that).

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"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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