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"Selling" your fetish - 3/7/2011 11:11:03 PM

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A thought sparked by another thread...

One of the common things that I''ve seen here and elsewhere from dominant ladies is essentially the question, "What's in it for me?" That is, when a prospective sub (generally male) announces that he's into being feminized, or cuckolded, or imprisoned, or penetrated, or whatever, he gets challenged as to what the Dominant is supposed to get out of it. "What's supposed to make me want to do that do you? What's my payoff?"

An understandable question, but in some ways not one that occurs to me to answer -- because I'm not really a Dominant, and I don't get off on what the Dominants get off on. I mean, sure, I can see some obvious benefits you can get from someone submitting to you, in terms of actual service (whether that be pampering, or sexual, or housework, or actual labor). I could certainly enjoy 'using' a female submissive for a while. But it would be fairly fleeting for me, because I'm just not really into that end of the power exchange in the same way, and I am not much of a sadist. I can also appreciate in a sense a given Domme's desire to find subs who aren't just looking to serve anyone, but crave to serve *her* specifically. (I recall being at a play party and seeing a young woman who seemed really excited at what she was about to do to her sub, and feeling envious that there wasn't anyone actually anxious to do similar things to me.)

But if I talk about fantasies and fetishes I have, I'm not so much trying to persuade every Domme reading it that she should want to do this to me. I'm putting it out there in the hopes that it will attract the attention of those who already have those inclinations and might be looking for someone to indulge them with. It's not that different from, on a vanilla personals site, saying that I'm into Jazz and canoeing (note: I am neither into Jazz nor canoeing, these were hypotheticals :)). I'm not trying to talk you into being into them, I'm just hoping those who are will note it as a point in my favor. So if I talk about feminization, I'm not trying to say you *should* want to feminize me...I'm just sort of hoping you *do* want to.

Why *should* you want to? Search me. I can't tell you why you *should* want to whip someone or perform CBT on them (and probably can come up with reasons you shouldn't! ;)) but plenty of you do....

< Message edited by pinniped -- 3/7/2011 11:13:52 PM >

RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/7/2011 11:49:37 PM

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I can't speak for all femdoms, but I know I am more inclined to get to know subs who approach kink in a manner that doesn't make me feel he's putting kink first. I don't desire submissive men, I desire men that want to submit to me. If he doesn't know me, how can he want to submit to me anyway? Unless, of course, he wants to submit to anyone.

But the issue of topping/bottoming is a different can of worms. I enjoy dominant acts that include bondage and S&M, and those are hard wired into my sensual and sexual wiring, and also acts that I crave and need indulged regularly. When a man surrenders to bondage and S&M for me, there is no "what's in it for me?" in my mind - he is giving me exactly what I want -- that S&M experience is huge to me, and one I crave so intensely and passionately that it can be very compelling at any given moment.

Still, I have to have a connection with that guy - I don't crave the acts and seek a person to just fit into the acts themselves. The acts are not the primary focus, although the acts themselves are very specific and I have some intense fetishes. I don't crave intimate S&M acts with a man who I do not share chemistry with. My desire to make a man endure S&M must first come from a connection on one of two levels. One level is intimacy, affection and the realization that he fully understands my sadistic desires and primarily wants to endure them from a place of devotion, not self indulgence. The other level is the exact opposite and fairly straight forward: Physical lust. If I am instantly and undeniably attracted to a man based on his look, body language, chemistry with me, etc., my desire to physically dominate him is present. Whether or that attraction is sustainable is a wild card - if the man is obnoxious obviously the physical attraction goes right out the window.

I'm insanely picky on both levels and most men don't have the patience to cultivate a relationship unless they know there's a payoff, and/or they don't respect that physical chemistry or having a "type" isn't a knock against them. Or, they don't have the patience, again, to attempt to develop rapport so that physical chemistry may have time to develop. In the end I prefer to do the pursuing, so that I have a little more control anyway.

Akasha

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/7/2011 11:56:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinniped
But if I talk about fantasies and fetishes I have, I'm not so much trying to persuade every Domme reading it that she should want to do this to me. I'm putting it out there in the hopes that it will attract the attention of those who already have those inclinations and might be looking for someone to indulge them with.

Problem is, that's usually the direct opposite of what a femdom is looking for. She's usually not looking for someone to indulge specific fetishes with so much as a connection that makes the idea of doing *any* kinky stuff with that person an attractive one.

Doesn't matter to me what someone's specific kinks are, whether they're a match for mine or not. If a connection is there I'll make the kink part work. If a connection is not there, we could like all the same things but it's still not going to be fun to do them with this guy who I don't feel any connection with.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 12:10:35 AM

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Hmmm. I guess part of it for me is that I want someone who I know *already* enjoys the kink. I had a girlfriend who indulged some of my kinks because she wanted to please me, but after the relationship ended, told me that she kind of resented it. I don't want that again. I don't want someone who is only going to tie me up because I like to be tied up.

As for developing the relationship first...yes, that would be the ideal. But, I don't want to put a great deal of investment into developing a relationship with someone if the kink aspect is never going to be there, because ultimately it's going to be frustrating. Which is why I'm looking on a kink site in the first place. Sure, I look at vanilla sites occasionally, too, but there's always that barrier of knowing that eventually I'm going to have to sound her out on kink (and crossdressing, which isn't always hooked in with my kink side), and that tends to discourage me from getting anywhere.

Sooo....I guess my main strategy, is just to try to demonstrate my general intelligence, with, literacy, and inclinations, and hope that will catch someone's interest eventually. There are worse strategies...and in the meantime, at least some interesting discussions result. :)

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 12:57:38 AM

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I do not try to sell my kinks - will discuss them with just about anybody, but i don't push them at a potential domme. i want to want to be hers - and i want her to want me to be hers.if in our preliminary talks we find we have vastly different kinks, then that mutual want most likely won't be there. besides, your kinks is what the interests check list is for - your profile text should be about you - not your fantasies - at least that's what i think.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 4:08:35 AM

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Male Dom here.

Depends on what the fetishes are. If they correspond go my hard limits, then she has a choice between kissing them goodbye or finding someone else. If they're soft limits of mine, I might be persuadable if I see it means a lot to her. There have been women I've met and been attracted to whom I have declined to pursue when I checked their profiles and realized we had a kink mismatch.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 6:00:27 AM

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Another thought - I don't see your situation as selling your kinks. I see the situation you described as selling you, and the fetishes are just part of the package.

IMO, you are not selling as much as shopping the kinks, to see if there's a Domme who'll mesh with you and them. I would consider selling the kinks by themselves, as being when you're with a Domme and are selling her on them.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 6:44:56 AM

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I think it's this very subject which led to a certain part of the FAQ thread being included. The section about common kinks and fetishes. I happen to agree with what is written there in regard to it really is coming across as kink first, rather than connecting with the person. I think that's why the threads about 'who else likes kink X' flop so badly around here these days. They tend to go very poorly if a) there's no level of familiarity with the person who posts the original or b) it's not a kink that a high percentage of folks on the boards enjoy.

I happen to like the familiarity factor. I enjoy being connected to the person with whom I'm going to discuss the kink. It can literally be the same subject that random guy X pops up on the board asking who else is into kink A and it's not going to be nearly as interesting to Me if it's somebody that I feel no connection with. Have the same subject come up by someone that I consider to be on friendly terms with and I'm more than happy to talk about My experiences and share My feelings with them. It's all because of who they are as a human being that makes Me want to be open with them specifically.

So, while I understand your reasoning for the approach, OP, in My case (and I suspect for the case of a number of women) it really is somewhat backwards. It's still putting the kink first when others are more comfortable when the connection comes first.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 7:07:34 AM

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To me, and this is just how it makes ME feel.

When someone new approaches me and the first communication is kink based, I am completely uninterested. It makes me feel like they want me to submit to their kink. That they are looking at me as NOTHING MORE than a kink delivery service.

It also tells me that their kink is more important to them than a personal relationship. That who I am as a person doesn't mean anything to them. They don't care who I am. All they care about is, will I do xxx to them.

I've even given a few cute ones the chance to redeem themselves with further communication and explained why their initial approach turned me off. EVERY SINGLE TIME they proved to be selfish, kink focused, twits. They just didn't get it at all.

So for alllll the people that want to put the kink out there before the person, please continue to do so. It is one of the quickest ways to assist me in weeding them/you, out.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 7:45:30 AM

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Kinks don't create relationships, people do.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 8:15:17 AM

SylvereApLeanan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

Problem is, that's usually the direct opposite of what a femdom is looking for. She's usually not looking for someone to indulge specific fetishes with so much as a connection that makes the idea of doing *any* kinky stuff with that person an attractive one.

Doesn't matter to me what someone's specific kinks are, whether they're a match for mine or not. If a connection is there I'll make the kink part work. If a connection is not there, we could like all the same things but it's still not going to be fun to do them with this guy who I don't feel any connection with.

QFT.

Here's an example of this from my own recent experience.

I met my ex-play-partner (XPP) on this site. He responded to something I posted in my journal and he made me laugh. It wasn't kink-related at all and I wasn't interested in a male partner at the time, but he made me want to talk to him. Over the course of the next two years (remember that number, there'll be a test later), XPP proceeded to demonstrate his intelligence, wit and his interest in me as a person, rather than as a kink dispenser. We started in CMail and eventually moved to regular email, IMs and text messages.

We talked about kink, both his and mine, and discovered we weren't really all that compatible. I'm a sadist; he's not into pain. He likes latex rubber, gas masks, objectification, and all things transhumanist. I couldn't have cared less about any of those things. We also talked about our love of small, furry mammals, geeky movies and TV shows, our families, his job, my university studies...the list goes on. By the time we finally met face to face, I was already very interested in him, as a person.

When we decided to play, I had to figure out how to make our kinks mesh so we could both have fun. Lemme tell you, it wasn't easy. XPP is like a lot of do-me bottoms...he wants his fetishes his way and no other way will do. What set him apart was his willingness to talk about his fetishes and why they appeal to him, and then let me approach them on MY terms. He encouraged my curiosity and interest without being pushy. I broadened my interests because I was interested in him.

The tl;dr version of this is: don't sell your fetish. Sell you. If she's interested in you, she'll be interested enough to explore your fetishes with you.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 8:35:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinniped

As for developing the relationship first...yes, that would be the ideal. But, I don't want to put a great deal of investment into developing a relationship with someone if the kink aspect is never going to be there, because ultimately it's going to be frustrating. Which is why I'm looking on a kink site in the first place. Sure, I look at vanilla sites occasionally, too, but there's always that barrier of knowing that eventually I'm going to have to sound her out on kink (and crossdressing, which isn't always hooked in with my kink side), and that tends to discourage me from getting anywhere.

Women are going to continue to shut you down when you have the position that you don't want to invest the time unless you know your kinks (specifically) are going to be ok with her. I can't tell you how and why specifically, and I can't speak for all femdoms, but that just has ick written all over it. It's OK to make it clear that you are kinky, you are into fetish activities, and that you like a woman who is similarly open minded sensually and/or sexually. But once you start getting into specifics beyond that, I think it starts to make women feel like they are just being pursued in hopes that they will indulge this fantasy, and if not, they are not worth the effort.

I can't tell you how many men I dated who, if they presented up front that would want me to do x, y and z acts, I would have NEVER gotten to know them. Yet later, I was gleefully doing x, y and z acts, even though they aren't in my standard 'bag of tricks.' When attraction develops, so does a desire to engage in mutually beneficial intimacy. You need someone who is open to KINK, yes, that's obvious, and it's fair to have that on the table. But to start getting more specific, a woman then has an opportunity to lose interest to you because she feels you're just looking for your kinks.

Every vanilla man has an idea of what he wants his perfect sex life to be. Maybe he wants a blow job every morning. Maybe he wants to know, at the minimum, a woman is going to have sex with him 5 times a week, or engage in sex in the shower. Rather than courting vanilla women with this agenda right up front, he is more tactful and will have more success by courting a woman who he can get to agree that sex is important and her appetite is strong. But even then, beware. If the kink, and the specific kinks are so important, for those relationship-minded women, it's still a bit objectifying. I mean if you are not taking time to develop intimacy, you have no idea where YOU may be willing to compromise and adjust, after all. And, in a real relationship, a woman has to know that you will stick by her at all costs, not just if she's playing your kink games your way.

I am fiercely kinky, have a strong appetite, and my kinky strain isn't going anywhere. But I push away men almost instantly if I feel they are pursuing me from a place of self indulgence, and/or not willing to invest the time in me as a person. I could care less about a man's wallet; but similar to the other poster before me, my most recent addition to my inner circle "courted me" (from a friendship POV) for a year before we met in person. I'm talking daily emails and 90% of it wasn't even about kink. And while he has a host of fetishes, honestly, it took me a year to figure them out.

Akasha

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 9:04:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

Problem is, that's usually the direct opposite of what a femdom is looking for. She's usually not looking for someone to indulge specific fetishes with so much as a connection that makes the idea of doing *any* kinky stuff with that person an attractive one.

Doesn't matter to me what someone's specific kinks are, whether they're a match for mine or not. If a connection is there I'll make the kink part work. If a connection is not there, we could like all the same things but it's still not going to be fun to do them with this guy who I don't feel any connection with.

QFT a second time. If there's the connection, I'll do what I can to go with whatever is her conception of domination.

Gawd. We've got to a) loosen up our minds and b) get our priorities straight, here. As far as I can see we don't have a bloody chance at forming and maintaining relationships otherwise.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 3/8/2011 9:06:14 AM >

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 11:19:19 AM

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I would have to agree with DarkSteve, I do not see it as selling anything. What I do try to find other like minded people. I think in this world now a days people want to find a sub or a top like they are going shopping, just pick one up like that. But I like to see people as human beings if they are a top or a sub,that comes first in my book.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 12:16:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 81song
I would have to agree with DarkSteve, I do not see it as selling anything. What I do try to find other like minded people. I think in this world now a days people want to find a sub or a top like they are going shopping, just pick one up like that. But I like to see people as human beings if they are a top or a sub,that comes first in my book.

Nail. Head. Hammer. Hit.

Both my partners have kinks that are on my "meh, kind of boring" list, kinks that I'd be just fine never doing again for the rest of my life. But that's almost irrelevant in our relationship. Because we got to know one another as people and developed the relationship first, I'm perfectly happy to indulge their kinks and I expect them to also indulge mine. Our likes are similar enough that it works (eg, I'm dominant, they're submissive, we're all good with the basics of impact play) and there's nothing on either of our fetish lists that is a really hard limit for the other. Also, none of us are monolithically focused on any specific kink; they're part of a larger whole of how we interact in a D/s way. So the relationship works, and it works very well.

Because they think like you do, and put the human relationship before their kinks, they are in a happy, mutually fulfilling femdom relationship where they can get their kinks most of the time they want them from someone who really enjoys playing with them. Also we're poly, so I'm fine bringing other people in to indulge kinks I'm not hugely into, as long as there is no STD risk (limited or no sexual contact, or we bring someone into the family after a full round of mutual STD tests).

If you are holding out for a woman who is as single-focused into your fetish as you are, my guess is you'll be waiting a *very* long time....and you'll turn off even those women if you try to sell your kink rather than your personality.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 12:28:27 PM

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I think it comes down somewhat to a gender based issue. Men are mainly the ones with specific fetishes or kink activities. Women fall more often into the category of finding certain things appealing in a general way. When men approach women like they are other men by saying I like x,y,z, do you like that as well (meaning lets do x,y,z!) - women find that dehumanizing and rather silly. When x,y,z, is connected to a man a woman cares about then it interests her.

It sounds like good problem solving to say that since I like something I'll go ask others if they like it too. But women aren't men, they don't tend to concentrate on certain activities, they want the person attached to the activities first and foremost. A man will not be successful if he goes about things as though he were doing things that would attract himself....because he's a freaking man not a woman. A hunter sets his bait according to what he is hunting. If he sets out a lovely tomato plant and hopes that a lioness will come by and want to eat tomatoes and therefore fall into his trap- he may be waiting for a long time. The lion hunter should therefore probably set out what lions like to eat. It's not enough to say I'm a hunter and I am interested in acquiring a lioness, and I will get one by offering tomatoes, because I truly love tomatoes myself. The lioness is going to be passing by until she finds a savvy hunter who sets out a bunch of meat because that's what catches her interest.

A woman isn't generally attracted by talk of certain fetishes or sexual activities, as incomprehensible as that is to men, it is the way it is. If you want a woman you'll have to figure out what they want and what attracts them - lots of women tell people in these forums every day what attracts them just as they have in this very thread. I have no idea why men don't seem to pay attention to what's being said - they keep trying to do things from their own point of view and failing and then becoming upset and bitter.

OP, knock yourself out by putting forth your fetishes and prepare to sit back and get no response at all from your target audience because it isn't what they're interested in.

(in reply to pinniped)

RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 12:34:20 PM

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Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd then they piss and whine when they do find a woman that does jump all over their fetish and proceeds to demand money from the fetishist for fulfilling their kinky little fantasies.

Because quite frankly, even from my perspective of zero interest in pro stuff, if I am going to focus on some random person's kink they are going to have to come up with SOMETHING to give me in return.............and it's going to take a wholllllllllllleeeee lotta something.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 12:50:37 PM

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LadyNTrainer you also have some good points as to human relationships which for me is the key. It think it was my 3rd time with a Domme and I felt so damn nervous and she was very nice, she told me look, I am a bus driver and a real person, lets talk. That made me feel so much better. Real verse online.
As to STD testing that makes perfect sense to me. hat is why I have never understood the swinging thing.I get tested twice a year.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 2:46:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
If a connection is there I'll make the kink part work.

That would certainly match my experience. It is exactly BECAUSE our relationship is so nurturing and all around wonderful that the kink part flourishes. There are many things we do regularly and casually that I never would've thought one or the other of us would do. Those things are not items of resentment between us. They are two people who love the bejeebers out of their partner paying up in the coin of the realm and damned happy for the opportunity to do so.

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RE: "Selling" your fetish - 3/8/2011 3:40:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

If a connection is there I'll make the kink part work.

That would certainly match my experience.

And mine. Like LNT said, if things broadly match up (they're some form of s-type, I'm some form of d-type) with someone I care about and am attracted to, then the specifics will work out.

I just wanted to flag this up:

quote:

It's not that different from, on a vanilla personals site, saying that I'm into Jazz and canoeing

Bullshit. The kink equivalent of saying that you're into jazz and canoeing is exactly that - saying that you're into jazz and canoeing.

The vanilla equivalent of a guy 'announcing that he's into being feminized, or cuckolded, or imprisoned, or penetrated, or whatever' would be him announcing that he's looking for someone for blowjobs, or anal sex, or fucking in the shower, or whatever. How many women do you suppose would appreciate that approach? (Hint: they are the minority.) What makes you think kinky women would be different?

I have advice, and I know it works because it's what I do. Write decent, flowing, articulate and sexy erotica about your fetishes. Go into how it makes the characters feel, why it's good for them. Focus on emotions and sensations, not how improbably big the characters' breasts are. Don't use ridiculous synonyms for cock. Punctuate properly (because nothing ruins porn like bad grammar. I'm not kidding.)

Set up a blog or something for this stuff, and then leave a link to it at the end of your profile. That way the information about what gets you off is there for the woman to view at her leisure if she wants it, and you're not shoving it in her face during conversation. Mention the blog once in an email if you like, and then don't bring it up again.

As a technique, it's pretty successful - you're appealing to their curiosity rather than demanding their attention, and most people are pretty curious.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 3/8/2011 3:42:33 PM >

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