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RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 12:22:36 AM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I would agree with you here.
In self appraisal those who self harm do seem to state however that it has a negative affect upon their lives and that they do eventually, in the addiction to it, state that they function inadequately and would, if they could, wish to stop the behaviour.
Perhaps the differnece is simply between actions which feel compulsive (harm) and actions which are fully chosen?

But you have no idea from the look of someone with cut marks if they were a compelled or not...

Im someone who cut herself on a regular basis, but was not compelled to do so, doing so was not out of a place of negativity or a place of self loathing....It did not affect my life in a negative way. It didnt make my friends and family hate me.. or distance me from my partner...

I did it for the pain and the pain alone.... I did it for the feelings pain gave me and I stopped hurting myself when I knew I could not assure i would not suffer harm from the actions...

You make the entire thing negative by calling it harm instead of what it is... theres a HUGE difference between hurt and harm in every thing we do in the life wither its too ourselves or someone else doing it to us.

< Message edited by SpiritedRadiance -- 3/9/2011 12:24:15 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 12:32:29 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I would agree with you here.
In self appraisal those who self harm do seem to state however that it has a negative affect upon their lives and that they do eventually, in the addiction to it, state that they function inadequately and would, if they could, wish to stop the behaviour.
Perhaps the differnece is simply between actions which feel compulsive (harm) and actions which are fully chosen?

But you have no idea from the look of someone with cut marks if they were a compelled or not...

Im someone who cut herself on a regular basis, but was not compelled to do so, doing so was not out of a place of negativity or a place of self loathing....It did not affect my life in a negative way. It didnt make my friends and family hate me.. or distance me from my partner...

I did it for the pain and the pain alone.... I did it for the feelings pain gave me and I stopped hurting myself when I knew I could not assure i would not suffer harm from the actions...

You make the entire thing negative by calling it harm instead of what it is... theres a HUGE difference between hurt and harm in every thing we do in the life wither its too ourselves or someone else doing it to us.

If you knew me well enough then you would know that I never close down on my assumptions....
and this from what you say above I would simply suggest that when you were cutting it was 'chosen' and therefore not self-harm but masochism. And then when you found someone else to do that, that it became a part of s/m?
(Note even my suggestion is marked with a question mark here).

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Post #: 42

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 12:36:27 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

You can scale it all you want, it boils down to how much someone wants to judge anothers kink as not as sane as their own.

I don't believe it's that cut and dried. We've addressed this issue from other angles. Most notably the pro ana / pro mia thread that was almost universally frowned upon. Irregardless of what people may hope, there are behaviors that society and the kink community will have difficulty embracing. Particularly those that lend the impression that negative self abasement and/or destruction is the goal. And for something supposedly okay by it's practitioners, the overall consensus paints a different picture. Most former cutters denounce the practice and cite its negative attributes rather than lauding them. Perhaps your ideas are not the norm, but the minority within the spectrum.

Namaste,

~porcelaine

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Post #: 43

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 12:42:22 AM

phoenixmoonn13

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i think for some there is a connection for some there isnt its individual. for me i had something missing didnt know what was in a very unhappy vanilla relationship and i pulled a hair out not on purpose and it hurt but in a wonderful way ( i thought i was a perv or something as i didnt know about bdsm at all) i loved the feel of it and kinda got hooked on it. then i divorced my now ex then found bdsm and never pulled again well i have but only cosmetic hairs

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Post #: 44

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 9:18:09 AM

Missokyst

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Did you ever listen when people say they feel pent up, tense, angry, ect.. and once they engage in some bdsm play everything has settled back down? The action is fully chosen. Many times when someone cuts, pulls, ect. the action is fully chosen. The difference as I see it is guilt. The former needs to have someone do it for them because to do it themselves seems sick. Why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
I would agree with you here.
In self appraisal those who self harm do seem to state however that it has a negative affect upon their lives and that they do eventually, in the addiction to it, state that they function inadequately and would, if they could, wish to stop the behaviour.
Perhaps the differnece is simply between actions which feel compulsive (harm) and actions which are fully chosen?

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 45

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 9:25:06 AM

LillyBoPeep

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for me it's not guilt, it's the motivation.
i've put clothespins on my tits before and felt no guilt. =p that wasn't an action motivated by self-loathing, it was just for fun -- i like clothespins on my tits. haha

cutting WAS about self-loathing, at least for me. it was negative because it only reinforced negative feelings, rather than creating anything truly positive.

i recently ran across a profile on FL, of a girl who cuts herself, seemingly for the purpose of engaging in bloodplay. she's coovered in scars but seems proud of them. the cutting, for her, seems to be about her fetish (granted, i haven't talked to her so i don't know for sure) -- but NOT motivated by hatred of herself. she fulfills something for herself, rather than getting into a cycle to tear herself down. every self-injuring person i've ever talked to (NOT body-mod person, or artistic cutting person, but self-injuring -- there's a difference) has had some kind of feelings of self-hatred.

the motivation, not the guilt, is the primary factor for me.

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Post #: 46

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 9:35:40 AM

Missokyst

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Ok.. add one to your list.
I have been a cutter in my life. I have no scars. I do have some self loathing, but lol trust me when I say it is MUCH less than many other people I know. I cut because it felt GREAT. It busted any negative happening in my world at the time. Very much the same as people getting beat to feel more relaxed.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

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Post #: 47

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 9:43:42 AM

LillyBoPeep

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do you still do it? or did you stop? if you stopped, why?

cutting felt pretty great for me, too -- at the time, and floating away was a-okay to avoid dealing with whatever was bothering me -- at the time, but i did stop because it came wrapped up in all this other really horrible stuff. it was something i did because i thought i "needed" to, and yet it didn't solve any problems. it wasn't fun, even though i might've felt nice for a few minutes -- the real world would come back eventually, and nothing was ever really any better.

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"Obey your Master." Metallica

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Post #: 48

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 10:14:38 AM

Missokyst

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I still do it now and again, though it is no where near the same desire as when I was young and hormonal. It was a temporary fix. No.. not really a fix, it was a stopgap until I had an opportunity to settle what ever issue was up, either by accepting that people are going to be who they are, even if I don't like it.
I never saw it as something that would fix the problem. It only settled me down until I could better handle things.
AND I will mention that no part of me felt it was wrong. I don't "DO" guilt. And it amazes me that people who need that masochistic relief and can only feel it is acceptable when other people are doing it for them, do not see that as guilt.
I admit why I do things. I am a masochist. I have always been a masochist. I don't need someone else to give me the right to indulge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

do you still do it? or did you stop? if you stopped, why?

cutting felt pretty great for me, too -- at the time, and floating away was a-okay to avoid dealing with whatever was bothering me -- at the time, but i did stop because it came wrapped up in all this other really horrible stuff. it was something i did because i thought i "needed" to, and yet it didn't solve any problems. it wasn't fun, even though i might've felt nice for a few minutes -- the real world would come back eventually, and nothing was ever really any better.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

Post #: 49

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 11:42:00 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Did you ever listen when people say they feel pent up, tense, angry, ect.. and once they engage in some bdsm play everything has settled back down? The action is fully chosen. Many times when someone cuts, pulls, ect. the action is fully chosen. The difference as I see it is guilt. The former needs to have someone do it for them because to do it themselves seems sick. Why?

That's in part what I added earlier. That another doing the act assuages the guilt.
So too could discovering that there was a community and indeed protocools covering how the urge and the guilt were sanctified.

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Post #: 50

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 12:08:02 PM

Arpig

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quote:

the motivation, not the guilt, is the primary factor

And that, ladies and gentlemen, I believe is the key to the whole discussion.

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Post #: 51

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 12:33:17 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

the motivation, not the guilt, is the primary factor
And that, ladies and gentlemen, I believe is the key to the whole discussion.

Not necessarily so.
This implies that masochists are fully compliant out of motivation to submit to the actions of a sadist. Not so. Even a masochist submitting to certain degress of sadism may still require training. Still require that tolernace to pain is built up.
And it also infers that there is never guilt with chosen masochism.
Often, in my experience, guilt remains part of the motivation, guilt remains part of the arousal.
The forbidden is a great deal more satisfying than the mundane.
Good to have a sadist make their mark here, so to speak.

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Post #: 52

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 1:02:02 PM

kalikshama

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To those who say cutting / self injuring felt good or great - was this in a sexual way, like masochism is (for me, anyway) or good in the sense of psychological relief? Or both?

I'm attempting to formulate a hypothesis about negative and positive coping mechanisms...

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 3/9/2011 1:09:13 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 2:07:46 PM

Missokyst

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Those former cutters you talk about, wanted to stop. They felt badly about it, and guilt for doing it. And probably had enough people telling them YOU ARE SICK, that that is how they view it. But it is masochism, just as anyone who drops their drawers to get a spanking high is masochism.

What people see are the extremes. You rarely hear of the guy down the street who drinks a six pack a day and goes to sleep wail and moan because he can't stop. You do hear about Charlie Sheen, or Mel Gibson or any other number of people when they go off the deep end. We don't hear of the normal every day people in any given addiction. Not for smoking which might kill you, or toakers, or everyday drinkers, or occasional cutters. We hear about the extreme. My point is not everyone who does anything is among the extreme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
. Most former cutters denounce the practice and cite its negative attributes rather than lauding them. Perhaps your ideas are not the norm, but the minority within the spectrum.

Namaste,

~porcelaine

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

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Post #: 54

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 2:11:35 PM

Missokyst

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Nearly everything is sexual for me. At least painwise. I am a masochist, not just a sensual masochist, but pain does trigger those receptors that make me excited and that culls the pain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

To those who say cutting / self injuring felt good or great - was this in a sexual way, like masochism is (for me, anyway) or good in the sense of psychological relief? Or both?

I'm attempting to formulate a hypothesis about negative and positive coping mechanisms...

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 55

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 2:20:59 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Those former cutters you talk about, wanted to stop. They felt badly about it, and guilt for doing it. And probably had enough people telling them YOU ARE SICK, that that is how they view it. But it is masochism, just as anyone who drops their drawers to get a spanking high is masochism.

Are you suggesting that outside opinion played a part in their self assessment rather than the realization that their behavior was beneficial? If so, that might imply an element of susceptibility which doesn't make the picture any better from my perspective.

We have a current thread right now that addresses a medical concern by a self professed binge and purger. Although she requested information concerning the kink element, the ramifications of the behavior were not ignored. More than one individual pointedly noted that she was ignoring the problem. Using the stance you've taken, would you surmise the behavior is sick or merely a personal choice? And at what point is the latter no longer an option worth considering?

Namaste,

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Post #: 56

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 2:21:46 PM

LillyBoPeep

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most of the ones i've known didn't have anyone telling them they were sick because they hid it. that's what i did. no one knew about it or noticed me enough to notice it, until i went that day and told my mom about it.
i came to my conclusions on my own. it was bad for me, so i left it. you have your own reasons, but honestly i do agree with porcelaine that you're probably in the minority.
not every self-injurer i ever talked to wanted to stop. many of them thought it was terribly self-destructive but they relied on it so heavily that they preferred to keep doing it. just like there are smokers who have chain-smoking habits, know that it might lead to illness, but have no desire to stop. people can recognize the negativity of something while staring it straight in the face and walking towards it.

and no, not everyone who does something is in the extreme, but just becuase you want to stop something doesn't mean you're in the extreme, either.

kalikshama -- to me, cutting was not sexual. it was some kind of temporary relief, but it didn't last. indulging in other painful things purely for the pleasure of it, though, -- that was often sexual.
that's why, IN MY OPINION, the motivation is what is key.
someone can cut herself and love it because her motivation is positive, or someone can do it, and hate herself, because her motivation is negative.
or you can be motivated to do something IN ORDER TO experience guilt.
guilt is sometimes a motivator for loads of things, sure.

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Post #: 57

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 2:24:37 PM

Missokyst

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No, I am not suggesting that, though I do think that how others view these things are likely a factor in how they feel about themselves.
We are taught that somethings are acceptable.
Extremes rarely are acceptable.
Not all cutters are extreme about it.
Not all smokers are extreme about it.
Not all people who drink are extreme about it.
The list goes on.

We do not see the list of people who might do things and are not extreme.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 58

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 2:28:47 PM

LillyBoPeep

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well that depends on your definition of extreme, which is a completely subjective word. =p

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Midwestern Girl

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Post #: 59

RE: Self-harm and masochism - 3/9/2011 2:44:45 PM

Missokyst

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Exactly my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

well that depends on your definition of extreme, which is a completely subjective word. =p

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

Post #: 60

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