RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (Full Version)

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SexyBossyBBW -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:39:47 PM)
I cannot know how parents would feel in such a situation. I would NEVER, want to be the person telling them, we cannot agree to do this, because we feel it is further torture to your little one, whose spirit is no longer with us. I'll have you know, that poor, fairly healthy, unisured people, are ascribed death sentences every day in the US, if they don't live close to a clinic, and cannot get to the hospital in time, when an emergency occurs. This discussion is for me, a lot like the pro-lifers. There are plenty of poor, dying, already out, and living little ones in the world they don't care to save, but... M

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:40:05 PM)
quote: The parent, or the State? You are forgetting the recommendations of the specialists

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:40:28 PM)
quote: As it stands, its a fatal disease, one that took the life of his older sister. There is no point, except to assuage the parents guilt at the time of death that all was "done", to doing this. Would you feel any less having to watch your child die?

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:44:31 PM)
I experienced the death of my own child on an operating table. Thankfully, they brought him back. I experienced the death of my niece from a disorder that we knew would only allow her to be in our lives for a few short years. As painful as either case was for me, I never once believed the Drs were doing something "easier" or "cheaper". Its at times like these that emotions overrule common sense. The child will never recover. There is no quality of life to speak of. There is no benefit of doing this.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:44:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice It strikes me as a publicity stunt, U.S. culture warriors using a vegetative, dying baby as a prop. Picking the right victim is a staple of the game, DC. Seen the HBO production of "Thurgood?" The issue remains. Who makes the final decision? The parent, or the State? Sounds like it was neither - sounds to me like it was the doctors. It's kinda their job, ya know. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Isn't possible that, in their human grief and reluctance to let go, that their wishes may not be entirely reality-based, that they may actually be putting their own emotional needs ahead of the child's best interest? Unless we are willing to call what they want to do criminal, shouldn't the final decision rest with them, DC? Isn't it their cute potato? No. They're not rebuilding a 57 Chevy here - this is a human being we're talking about. If the doctors truly feel that a procedure is not in the best interests of the patient, they can not and should not be required to perform the procedure. Regardless of what the parents want.

SexyBossyBBW -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:49:39 PM)
Wow Tazzy, sorry to read these... [:(] quote: As painful as either case was for me, I never once believed the Drs were doing something "easier" or "cheaper". Its at times like these that emotions overrule common sense. The child will never recover. There is no quality of life to speak of. There is no benefit of doing this. I agree... I have also heard of the health professionals feeling like they are participating in abusing/torturing patients whom they have no hope of saving. M

dcnovice -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:50:37 PM)
quote: The issue remains. Who makes the final decision? The parent, or the State? I'd like to think/hope that the choice isn't usually so stark, that there are other voices (doctors, nurses, ethicists, chaplains if appropriate) in the discussion and that folks involved can reach a consensus. Two scenarios to consider: (a) An elderly, dying man has left clear instructions, including a DNR order, about not wanting heroic measures to prolong his life. His family, though, can't bear to let go and refuse to allow him to be taken off life support. Should the family prevail over the patient's clearly expressed wishes? (b) A teen girl, a top student with good prospects, gets pregnant. The parents think having the baby will derail her from the path to success. They want her to abort. Should their wishes prevail?

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:52:18 PM)
quote: As painful as either case was for me, I never once believed the Drs were doing something "easier" or "cheaper". Let go of the word greed. I said it was a personal observation that had nothing to do with the case at hand. That's just how I see the US medical. quote: Its at times like these that emotions overrule common sense. The child will never recover. There is no quality of life to speak of. There is no benefit of doing this. See that's the thing,,I asked earlier about what benefits this procedure would have and none of us know. Somehow in what I read it said they wanted to do this as to prolong the child's life so they could take him home. Will this allow him to live a few hours more, a week, a month or provide no benefit at all? He's on a machine that helps him breathe so I'm not sure it would help..maybe it would..I don't know his history and neither do any of you.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:53:06 PM)
Thank you. It was many years ago. The thought still makes me tear up. People assume medical personel should have compassion/sympathy. What is needed is empathy. As in, "Yes, I know it hurts, but you have to get up after your surgery because pneumonia may set in." As opposed too, "poor dear, your hurting, we can do this later". I expect medical experts to give me the honest truth. And with many US hospitals refusing the transfer, seems many are agreeing with the Canadian specialists.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:54:43 PM)
According to the article, he was in a permanent vegetative state. Brain dead and dying. Why cut holes in his comatose body just so he could die at home instead of the hospital? How is that benefiting anyone?

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:55:07 PM)
quote: No. They're not rebuilding a 57 Chevy here - this is a human being we're talking about. If the doctors truly feel that a procedure is not in the best interests of the patient, they can not and should not be required to perform the procedure. Regardless of what the parents want. Devils advocate: So doctors are infallible and what the say is gospel? I know two people in my life who, if they hadn't went for second opinions, wouldn't be alive today.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:57:06 PM)
quote: According to the article, he was in a permanent vegetative state. Brain dead and dying. Why cut holes in his comatose body just so he could die at home instead of the hospital? How is that benefiting anyone? Because if it might benefit him in some way that you don't know that might be a good thing? As opposed to throwing him away now because he's surely gonna die. He's gonna die anyway right. Let's off him!

NihilusZero -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 9:58:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Compassion has pretty much been squeezed out and replaced by greed. One could call that a different type of emergency. I think that's a bit dichotomous a picture to paint after the fact. Are hospitals (or should they be) in the business of putting out expense for the emotional fixations of the kin of a patient? I think there's a far wider divide between the genuine compassion I'm sure many of the hospital people felt for these folks and the idea that unless every penny that can be put towards assuaging the emotional discomfort of the parent (and not the actual life/health of the child) is spent, they are heartless bastards.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:00:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: No. They're not rebuilding a 57 Chevy here - this is a human being we're talking about. If the doctors truly feel that a procedure is not in the best interests of the patient, they can not and should not be required to perform the procedure. Regardless of what the parents want. Devils advocate: So doctors are infallible and what the say is gospel? I know two people in my life who, if they hadn't went for second opinions, wouldn't be alive today. No, not at all. I agree with that completely. But that doesn't mean the parents are qualified to overrule the doctors and make medical decisions. If other doctors consult on the case and come to a different conclusion, then certainly that changes the discussion. But I don't see where that was the case here - from what I see, it was just a case of the parents refusing to accept the judgment of the doctors. The fact that they don't like the decision doesn't mean their opinion is valid, because they're not qualified to make medical judgments.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:01:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Compassion has pretty much been squeezed out and replaced by greed. One could call that a different type of emergency. I think that's a bit dichotomous a picture to paint after the fact. Are hospitals (or should they be) in the business of putting out expense for the emotional fixations of the kin of a patient? I think there's a far wider divide between the genuine compassion I'm sure many of the hospital people felt for these folks and the idea that unless every penny that can be put towards assuaging the emotional discomfort of the parent (and not the actual life/health of the child) is spent, they are heartless bastards. At this stage in the story none of you ahve the first clue as to whether this is about "assuaging the emotional discomfort of the parents".

NihilusZero -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:01:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Because if it might benefit him in some way that you don't know that might be a good thing? We can't really logically plead impossible "miracles". There is as much a chance that something completely unrealistic in the benefit of the child will happen from not performing the surgery as there is from having it. We're, again, talking about whether the emotional status of the parents/kin of a patient is something hospitals should be responsible for in addition to the care of a patient.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:01:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: According to the article, he was in a permanent vegetative state. Brain dead and dying. Why cut holes in his comatose body just so he could die at home instead of the hospital? How is that benefiting anyone? Because if it might benefit him in some way that you don't know that might be a good thing? As opposed to throwing him away now because he's surely gonna die. What way would that be? quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys He's gonna die anyway right. Let's off him! I think that's awfully extreme, and I'm surprised that you would advocate that.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:02:55 PM)
quote: No, not at all. I agree with that completely. But that doesn't mean the parents are qualified to overrule the doctors and make medical decisions. If other doctors consult on the case and come to a different conclusion, then certainly that changes the discussion. But I don't see where that was the case here - from what I see, it was just a case of the parents refusing to accept the judgment of the doctors. The fact that they don't like the decision doesn't mean their opinion is valid, because they're not qualified to make medical judgments. All true. We'll have to wait to see what else comes out in the story.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:03:06 PM)
quote: He's on a machine that helps him breathe so I'm not sure it would help..maybe it would..I don't know his history and neither do any of you. I do know, from just that short article, that his sister died from the same disorder. I do know the specialists stated his condition is fatal. I do know the costs associated with respiratory systems. In the view of Rev. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life, Joseph Maraachli's case was a rescue mission from a Canadian medical bureaucracy that wanted to end the infant's life. He also believes it's symbolic of a broader debate: Should doctors or family members decide when and how a terminally ill patient dies? I dont see the government as part of the equation. They merely rested their case upon the experts recommendations. The 13-month-old had been surviving on breathing and feeding tubes at London Health Sciences Centre for the past five months. Doctors at the London hospital, one of Canada's most prestigious medical institutions, felt Joseph's prognosis was clear. Admitted for treatment in October, the baby boy was diagnosed with a fatal neurodegenerative disease. His physicians determined he had no hope of recovery and recommended removing his breathing and feeding tubes. But Joseph's parents, Moe Maraachli and Sana Nader of Windsor, Ont., launched a legal battle to stop the tubes' removal. Fearing he would suffer a painful death if his breathing tube was removed, they wanted physicians to perform a tracheotomy, which would involve cutting a hole in their son's throat to create an airway They fear a painful death, yet dont fear the painful procedure to keep him alive? Wilfrid Laurier University medical ethics professor Melany Banks doesn't believe the St. Louis children's hospital should have agreed to accept Joseph. She worries religious politics and the emotions of grieving parents have overtaken the boy's best interests. “Of course grieving parents are going to jump at any hope,” Dr. Banks said. “But with a terminal diagnosis, the main concern is alleviating pain and not performing any unnecessary surgeries.” If I saw a shred of hope... but there is none. Why inflict more pain? quote: They lost another child to the same neurodegenerative disease eight years ago. The emotions wrapped up in the parents have got to be incredible. That doesnt make medically assaulting the baby right.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:04:16 PM)
quote: What way would that be? Well I don't know..That was my point. I'm not personally involved to know the real details nor am I a doctor.

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