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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/28/2011 7:11:19 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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Thank you Sylvere, for the very detailed response. There's a lot of good stuff in there that reinforces what several people have said already. The socialization of children is something I hadn't really considered. I don't have any kids and I haven't studied anything about it, but I have done lots of babysitting so I have spent a decent amount of time around young kids. From that I have to agree that girls tend to play together and boys tend to play against each other. So this may well be part of the answer.

Like you, my view on this is a work in progress, that's why I started this thread. And the various responses have, and continue to colour my view. I have pretty much accepted that it is primarily a matter of socialization, though to expect social conditioning to have developed without being influenced by innate biological capabilities or inclinations of each gender is unrealistic.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/28/2011 8:31:44 PM

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Social conditioning is pretty much a catch cry for those who promote gender as purely social constructs. I've always felt it's a rather lazy explanation that's turned to by people who have a vested interest in diminishing gender difference as much as possible.

From my perspective, male and female dominance are so different they can barely be mentioned seriously in the same breath. To assign dominance as a universal mantle which operates irrespective of gender is more of a conceit than anything else.

Bear in mind of course, that I'm speaking from a purely heterosexual perspective. Male dominance is intensely rooted in the physiology and psychology of the masculine and the way in which femininity responds to that. It's too lacking in accuracy to simply assign the labels "man" and "woman" to this, because even heterosexual women can end up either androgynous or shifting toward the masculine end of the masculine/feminine scale. So for the moment, let's presume when I speak of male/man and female/woman, I'm referring to a fairly polarised interaction between a masculine man and a feminine woman.

Every single female sub I've ever encountered has responded implicitly to the masculinity of presence and character. That is, her submission is driven by a physiological and psychological response. People who say "submission is a gift" are naive. Submission is an autonomic response by a feminine woman to a masculine man. Every aspect of a man which bespeaks of his masculinity contributes toward this. Primarily the driving masculine energy of his will and self-belief, however the ability to toss a woman around the bedroom doesn't hurt. Women respond to physiology as well.

Thus, feminine submission is very much the role of conquered to conqueror. Female subs want to continually experience that dominant masculinity. If they do not - if the guy loses that edge - they become dissatisfied and either rebel or leave. Consequently, unless a man binds a sub to him with psychological conditioning, the sub will continually test for - and expect - that dominant masculinity to continue.

In contrast - and admittedly looking from the outside in - female dominance appears to be more of an assumed mantle which requires no character traits or strength, merely the caprice to act as you will. The reality of the numbers game means that female dominants have more options and don't have to demonstrate any character attributes, they merely have to tie into their sub's sexual kink and lead him around by his gonads. I cannot recall a single time when a male sub or slave has said they've left their mistress because she's failed to provide what he needs. In contrast, female subs appear to do this all the time. I can only presume that either the numbers game means a Domme can be lazy without consequence or the D/s interaction is very fundamentally different from what occurs in a male/female D/s scenario.

From that perspective, it appears that females don't so much dominate as create a framework into which an abject sub can insert himself with the knowledge that he can always be replaced. That doesn't strike me as dominance so much as simply playing the rather advantageous odds which are often alluded to. When a male dominates, his dominance is critical to the success of the interaction. When a woman dominates, the SUB's submission is critical to the success of the interaction.

I disagree that male dominance is physical and female dominance is mental. Physiological and psychological response are a big part of this for me, although the possibility that I'm an outlier on this cannot be discounted.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/28/2011 8:34:55 PM

Arpig

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quote:

Now, based on the posts on these boards, the majority of the proponents of the “Action” style seem to be men. My question is why do you think this is?

There's a lot of good ideas presented so far, but in the end I think it boils down to the reality that most men are both unimaginative and insecure in their sexuality..

Unimaginative because they rarely think past their dicks, to them they are "dominating" you when they are fucking you. No matter how many times life disproves it, many still cling to the idea that women don't really want to have sex, and thus they are submitting when they do. And that's where the thought process stops. They have their submission, their dominance has been established and all they need to do to maintain it is to continue fucking her.

Insecure because they just are. Ask the average straight man why he won't let his girl stick a finger up his ass and he'll answer "I'm not gay" (This also invokes the unimaginative part). that's it. They are so terrified of being perceived as being less than completely hetero that they are afraid to explore the possibilities offered by their own bodies. The same goes for publicly admitting their emotions. Its also seen as a sign of weakness. it's girly, therefore unmanly...and if they do it somebody might think they are gay.

Therefore, engaging in a sexual activity that involves the passive or receiving role is by definition submitting to it, and usually "Gay" (which is usually viewed as weak and submissive as well...they should have a talk with Lance, eh?).

Homophobia is, in my experience, the major driving force in most men's lives, not so much a hatred of other gays, but a deep fear of being seen as even a little gay. In many ways I feel kind of sorry for het women, they are stuck being involved with het men, the vast majority of whom are total dickheads.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/28/2011 8:45:53 PM

Arpig

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Thank you Awareness for providing such a perfect example of the unimaginative, I was afraid I'd be asked to elaborate on that, now I don't have to.

quote:

In contrast - and admittedly looking from the outside in - female dominance appears to be more of an assumed mantle which requires no character traits or strength, merely the caprice to act as you will. The reality of the numbers game means that female dominants have more options and don't have to demonstrate any character attributes, they merely have to tie into their sub's sexual kink and lead him around by his gonads.

Ah. I get it, women can't really be dominant, so they are just catering to a man's kink...in fact responding and submitting to his "natural" masculine dominance.

quote:

I cannot recall a single time when a male sub or slave has said they've left their mistress because she's failed to provide what he needs. In contrast, female subs appear to do this all the time. I can only presume that either the numbers game means a Domme can be lazy without consequence or the D/s interaction is very fundamentally different from what occurs in a male/female D/s scenario.

It could be that, or maybe, just maybe its because those that approach dominance from your primitive point of view are simply doing it wrong.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 5/28/2011 8:46:41 PM >

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/28/2011 8:50:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Thank you Awareness for providing such a perfect example of the unimaginative, I was afraid I'd be asked to elaborate on that, now I don't have to.

Your viewpoint is no more valid than my own. Get over yourself.

quote:

Ah. I get it, women can't really be dominant, so they are just catering to a man's kink...in fact responding and submitting to his "natural" masculine dominance.

No, they're simply not required to. I wonder if that would change if competition became necessary.

quote:

It could be that, or maybe, just maybe its because those that approach dominance from your primitive point of view are simply doing it wrong.

No. That's a chauvinist proposition which simply says women do it better. Try again.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/28/2011 9:13:21 PM

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Is this where the internet dustups come from? look. Awareness is in large measure correct. There is a significant percentage of female subs who fit that profile perfectly. I have been rejected by a lot of women, and the #1 reason for rejection was my lack of competitive masculine presence Now. lucky for me, there are women who want what I have to offer, but most of them went through more controlling, macho filled relationships first. They were drawn to such relationships and learned through experience that they wanted something else.

further, his description of female dominance fits well the relation of a pro domme to her clients. His sample is probably profiles from collarme and similar web sites, and perhaps his own patronization of an establishment when he wanted to be topped on the down low. I doubt he knows any femdoms in real who are in stable loving relationships. but how many posters here do?

I don't see anything controversial.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/28/2011 11:31:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Back in the times of the ancient Greeks, then Romans, there were well known social protocol as to what was a sexual act of domination, and those of submission.
Perhaps traces of those old codes still linger in the shadows ?
Now that is an interesting idea! I'll have to do some research into that, its a very real possibility that those concepts have been carried over to modern times. Thanks for the suggestion.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 12:09:06 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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Thank you Awareness for contributing. You posted pretty much what I expected you to. I have to say I disagree with 99.99% of what you posted, but that's not really surprising. Your view of the interactions between men and women makes me sad actually.

But to the reworded question, why do you think it's mostly men that attach dominance or submission to any given sex act or position?

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 12:29:53 AM

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Well, things change. In time we all come to a new understanding of reality and those tenets we held to be inviolable are examined in a new light. I would be surprised if your viewpoints did not undergo a somewhat radical transformation in the next ten years. My views might make you sad, but that's simply because you don't have the context with which to understand them. Your mind leaps to the easy explanation because it's the only categorisation which makes sense to you. At some point, that will change.

To respond to your re-worded question, I'd say it's because penetrative sex is dominant in both physiological and psychological terms. Men have the equipment to penetrate, so naturally our sexuality is imbued with an implicit understanding of this. Strangely enough, female subs seem to concur with us on this point.

Most immediately relevant however is that in general terms most men are stronger than most women. The result of that is essentially that hot heterosexual monkey sex often involves positions of power in which the man is - in theory more than in fact - enforcing his will upon the woman. Taken from behind, fist in her hair; missionary with limbs pinned; lying on her side with his hand on her throat; dominant sexuality from a man excites many hetero women and the realisation that he COULD enforce his will - even if he doesn't - can be an intoxicating element in their sexual play. An element of fear if you will.

Women simply don't have that option. Most women can't dominate a man physically, so they have no option but to try and create a psychological framework in which this occurs. Some might substitute edge play but this is of limited use. In short, there are differences and it's no surprise to see the usual suspects try and play this off as evidence of female superiority in this sphere. I simply believe women do what they have to because they lack the option to do otherwise. It's all so much more compliance based.

And yes, female subs like to struggle while being fucked. A lot.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 12:45:32 AM

Arpig

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quote:

Your viewpoint is no more valid than my own.

Don't be daft! Of course my viewpoint is more valid than yours, it's my viewpoint. That makes it right. If it weren't right, then I'd change my viewpoint now wouldn't I?

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 12:51:46 AM

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Before I even start, I want to say this up front. It's late in My time zone so I may phrase some things poorly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
There's a lot of good ideas presented so far, but in the end I think it boils down to the reality that most men are both unimaginative and insecure in their sexuality.

I think it might have something to do with the difference between the genders as it relates to how sex is obtained. If the average woman wants to go out and get laid, it's pretty easy. Average guy, it's hit or miss. We see sex differently because it's just plain not that hard to get.

quote:

Unimaginative because they rarely think past their dicks, to them they are "dominating" you when they are fucking you. No matter how many times life disproves it, many still cling to the idea that women don't really want to have sex, and thus they are submitting when they do. And that's where the thought process stops. They have their submission, their dominance has been established and all they need to do to maintain it is to continue fucking her.

I think there's probably some truth to this. It wasn't that long ago that sex was seen as a "wifely duty" or some other silly thing. They are outdated ideas, but I think some of it is still out there.

quote:

Insecure because they just are. Ask the average straight man why he won't let his girl stick a finger up his ass and he'll answer "I'm not gay" (This also invokes the unimaginative part). that's it. They are so terrified of being perceived as being less than completely hetero that they are afraid to explore the possibilities offered by their own bodies. The same goes for publicly admitting their emotions. Its also seen as a sign of weakness. it's girly, therefore unmanly...and if they do it somebody might think they are gay.

There is a terrible disparity between the genders on this issue. It's a royal shame, too. Society at large has a far greater acceptance for bi-sexuality in females than males. The same goes for anal stimulation. They skip past the fact that the same nerve endings are present in males as well as females. Not to mention males have a prostate that women don't have. The fear of being perceived as gay robs them of the joy they could be having. Short changing themselves over a preconceived idea.

quote:

Therefore, engaging in a sexual activity that involves the passive or receiving role is by definition submitting to it, and usually "Gay" (which is usually viewed as weak and submissive as well...they should have a talk with Lance, eh?).

On this one, I can almost understand it. I think it might go along the lines that some women see it that way as well. When we talk about acceptance levels, both genders are involved.

quote:

Homophobia is, in my experience, the major driving force in most men's lives, not so much a hatred of other gays, but a deep fear of being seen as even a little gay. In many ways I feel kind of sorry for het women, they are stuck being involved with het men, the vast majority of whom are total dickheads.

I think there's a scale on this. Some het women would see certain acts as an interpretation of "gay" or "submissive". Others don't.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 12:53:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321
You might say its a hormonal thing. Testosterone in men definitely drives physical desires. Not just sexual, but more including being the Alpha dog, being the leader, being the Master. Most males are taught in life to compete with others. In the work place, in sports, keeping the lawn better trimmed than the neighbors. And first the most part women are attracted to the physical male. That's why the captain of the football team has a harem of girls wanting to date him. The geeky scientist, head of the chess club, does not have that harem of girls. I am greatly generalizing but you get the point.

I can agree with this, up to a point. I'm alsmots greatful, most girls run for the jock type. I'm attracted to boys when they possess smarts (emotional/street). Those are what I find sexy. I'm not much at all attracted to the person who lives at the gym so much.

quote:

Though I do somewhat disagree with your POV. I see it more as mental and physical combined for men. I have played on both sides of the fence and for me the tactile very much feeds the mental and vise versa.

For the mature man, I imagine, just physical becomes insufficient/boring in no time.

I like the OP's first post, and reasonable observations. Naturally, generalizations come with exceptions... So many components to what makes one desirable, changes, because of hormones, and personal preferences, when pursuing. It's difficult to reduce things to the lowest common denominator, IMO. M

< Message edited by SexyBossyBBW -- 5/29/2011 1:00:22 AM >

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 3:38:30 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

I want to thank everybody who has contributed so far.

your welcome

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 3:47:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Thank you Awareness for providing such a perfect example of the unimaginative, I was afraid I'd be asked to elaborate on that, now I don't have to.

Bingo...

quote:

And yes, female subs like to struggle while being fucked. A lot.

Maybe it's you and they struggle because the sex is really fucking horrible and it is a punishment for them?

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 3:58:25 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

It's late in My time zone so I may phrase some things poorly.

that is no excuse, off to bed with you

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 4:03:53 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
I'd say it's because penetrative sex is dominant in both physiological and psychological terms. Men have the equipment to penetrate, so naturally our sexuality is imbued with an implicit understanding of this. Strangely enough, female subs seem to concur with us on this point.

And yes, female subs like to struggle while being fucked. A lot.

female subs do not only like to struggle while being fucked... some of them also like to fuck you back with their hole just as hard as you like to ram the pole in it on occasion.

Some female subs when getting a really good fucking can not feel the hole or the pole anymore... they might become the one with the pole in the hole... bounderies might get so blurred it is not clear who is who anymore.

oooof i'm getting hot

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 5:39:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Is this where the internet dustups come from? look. Awareness is in large measure correct. There is a significant percentage of female subs who fit that profile perfectly. I have been rejected by a lot of women, and the #1 reason for rejection was my lack of competitive masculine presence Now. lucky for me, there are women who want what I have to offer, but most of them went through more controlling, macho filled relationships first. They were drawn to such relationships and learned through experience that they wanted something else.

further, his description of female dominance fits well the relation of a pro domme to her clients. His sample is probably profiles from collarme and similar web sites, and perhaps his own patronization of an establishment when he wanted to be topped on the down low. I doubt he knows any femdoms in real who are in stable loving relationships. but how many posters here do?

I don't see anything controversial.

I spent 20 years in a emotionally abusive relationship with a controlling macho man. We were married and have 2 children together, and I was committed. It was a mistake. Although sexually that opposites attract thing can be hot, the emotional reality for me is that too much control makes me shut down, and macho posturing makes me lose respect.

Now I am with someone who does not at all present as a controlling macho man, just the opposite in fact. And yet he has for years served as my emotional anchor. I've learned that what my submissive side needs most is someone who can be the quiet calming influence on my sometimes volatile emotions.

quote:

In contrast - and admittedly looking from the outside in - female dominance appears to be more of an assumed mantle which requires no character traits or strength, merely the caprice to act as you will. The reality of the numbers game means that female dominants have more options and don't have to demonstrate any character attributes, they merely have to tie into their sub's sexual kink and lead him around by his gonads. I cannot recall a single time when a male sub or slave has said they've left their mistress because she's failed to provide what he needs. In contrast, female subs appear to do this all the time. I can only presume that either the numbers game means a Domme can be lazy without consequence or the D/s interaction is very fundamentally different from what occurs in a male/female D/s scenario. ~Awareness

This paragraph just made me smile. When I first met the man who has been my male sub for about 5 years now, he came to my house, took me out to dinner, and then we went back to my place. I allowed him to worship my feet and then led him into the bedroom for one of the most wonderful massages I have ever had. To do this, I stripped down to my underwear. He was enamored to say the least, and thought for sure he had me in such a delightfully sensual puddle (he did) that I would fall into his arms for some hot sex.

It didn't happen, I sent him back to his hotel room. He later told me how astonished he was that I had enough control to just get up and (nicely) kick him out. He knew then I had the strength of will to dominant him, despite how manipulative he can be at times.

Strength of will is, to me, at the back bone of dominance. And strength of will is neither a male or female trait. When someone has it, that becomes apparent, and a submissive will be attracted to it and will (often) respond to it.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 6:03:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

And yes, female subs like to struggle while being fucked. A lot.

Maybe it's you and they struggle because the sex is really fucking horrible and it is a punishment for them?

I like your interpretation better,LC. It explains much about A's attitudes towards women.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 8:00:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
I've noticed reading on here that a lot of men seem to focus on individual sex acts or positions as being dominant or submissive in and of themselves, while I find the women do not.

That's not my observation. My observation is that a fair breadth of BDSM people think in terms of "acts" and so for them, acts become dominant and submissive. I haven't noticed any big differences between men and women.

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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 5/29/2011 10:07:20 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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My gosh, that's a nice way to start the day Awareness, to be told that I'm a naive little twit who will one day wake up and realize that I was faking being a lesbian all along. Thanks so much.

As far as your answer, well saying some acts are dominant and others submissive because penetrative sex is dominant doesn't answer the question. You are clearly in the "Action" school of dominance, why do you think that all penetrative sex is dominant?

Also if any penetrative sex is dominant, then would I be dominant if I fingered a girl, or a guy? Or does it require a penis to be dominant?

(in reply to Awareness)

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