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RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:19:14 AM

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I don't know. I can't imagine being beaten into submission. If it happened, I think my reaction would be..."yeah, I took all you could give me...now SHOVE IT, I'm outta here." I have absolutely NO desire to be beaten into submission. If my actions and my words don't prove my devotion, then I don't know what will. That's not to say that I haven't been beaten harder than I might wish, just that it was never to "prove" my devotion.

Actually, it would prolly be..."FUCK YOU" rather than "SHOVE IT" LOL

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:21:29 AM

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A critical study of the social customs and practices of youth gangs in North America will yield some really fascinating comparisons to the social structures of hunter-gatherer groups, nomad tribes and "raiding" or "warring" primate gangs among the chimpanzees of Gombe. Homo sapiens has not evolved nearly so far away from primitive social instinct as we as a society would like to think, and there is a reason that the theme of a "rite of initiation" is a powerful and recurring one in many cultures including our own. Gang banging or a rite of violent heirarchical initiation is practiced by gangs because it is an effective psychological technique. The gangs themselves may not clearly understand this as a reason why they do things that way, any more than the chimpanzees of Gombe do, but primate instinct will prevail and the custom continues.

"Breaking a slave" is an effective psychological technique that is actually related to the "violent heirarchical initiation" theme seen in youth gangs as well as chimpanzee troops. It is basic primate psychology to reinforce a social heirarchy, to effectively "hardwire" the behavioral submission response in the initiate to the dominant members of the troop. It can be used in consensual D/s relationships, either with or without the full knowledge and understanding of the origins and the effectiveness of this particular tool.

I'd say that most collaring ceremonies I have personally witnessed do include some form of ordeal, usually a beating. It seems to rise up from our most primitive instincts and intuition to do this, because in effect we stand as dominant chimpanzees who are inducting a submissive newcomer to our troop. This seems "the right thing to do". And perhaps it is, if it is done with complete understanding and consent on both sides.

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:22:12 AM

KittenWithaTwist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Well, like I said before, breaking really doesn't do what they say it will do.

have you NEVER seen this work? i will agree that is it a romantic idea, but to me, so isnt being baptized and getting married, and yet few people doubt their success at *working*

You can't prove that baptizing works until you die (and you can't really come back and tell people about it, can you?), and marriage doesn't really "work" very often anymore. What's that divorce rate now? 1 in 4?

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:23:19 AM

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ok when i was talking mental i was referring along the lines of verbal manipulation etc

from some of the posts i have seen of you [including the one encouraging myself not to *come out*, and more recently the one where you claimed you werent submissive maybe at all] i feel you may be a bit jaded on the whole bit.

maybe your Master hadnt shown you enough love i am not one to know, but i am aware of the fact that my Master could beat me to tears every day, and every day i would still thank Him for it and tell Him about how much i love Him.

as someone who was in a Nilla abusive relationship though, "It can make you question why you're there, make you wonder what you did wrong. If you can't stop it, you may question your motivations or your dom's motivations or you may start screaming for help and receive none."
the only times i felt that was when i was with someone addicted to abuse, real unwanted abuse, not the beatings i have consented to.

_____________________________

"lets just say he's a few prawns short of a galaxy"

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:26:03 AM

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this makes complete sense to me.

people are fast to forget from where we decended...

and on that note, i have never been baptized, and will never know if it works, lol

dont care to, really.

_____________________________

"lets just say he's a few prawns short of a galaxy"

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:28:06 AM

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A quote that may be relevant to my commentary above:

Leather Thought for the Day <[email protected]>

"Tools have no power in and of themselves, but they do change power in some way or other...Anything powerful can create as well as destroy in equal proportion, depending on how, why, and in what spirit the power is used.

- Guy Baldwin

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:30:30 AM

KittenWithaTwist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I've never seen it work in a consensual Ds or Ms context.

i respect that you have a plethura more real time experience when it comes to witnessing M/s/D/s relationships, but i cannot believe this concept does not bare success. Now i am wishing beyone belief that my planned on breaking had occured, so in 5 years i could say, "never say never" . . . eek

Or, you could have gone through with it, realized it doesn't work, and not be in the great place that you're in today. Consider that.

I've never heard of "breaking" being used successfully in my community. I first heard of the term online, and only online people pushed the concept. To my knowledge, not a single one of my D/s friends (some who have been participating in D/s relationships for upwards of 10 or 15 years) has ever seen or done a "breaking" as part of their relationships.

I'm not sure why you keep thinking that being harshly abused until past the point where you cannot handle it is a good thing. Perhaps you've never felt abuse before on a physical or mental level. It isn't fun. It isn't romantic. It isn't prideful. I've been pushed past a comfortable limit in play with my partner. It makes me sad. It's hard to stand up and it's hard to say "Stop" and it's hard to stop crying fitfully. I can't even turn to my partner and say "Help me" because I'm so far gone.

Does that sound fun? It isn't. Trust me. You're not taking something for your dominant. You're being hurt and abused.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:31:08 AM

MasterStoney442

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I know all of you have answers for my slave . rose442. I am her Master (MasterStoney442) . The term broken is a term I know not where she found that .
Yes I could beat her on a day to day basise, But what would I have from that ? . To me I would have that doormat . I do not want that . I give her all the love she wants and all that I have , She says she needs more ?
As she said , there are 4 kids in the house and it is hard to be what one needs to be all the time with that inm the way . But it can be done . It starts within . I have told her this many many times . She is very well taken care of by me . she gets what she needs . If she ask I will try my best to give her . But I need not hear all the excuse's that I get from her .
She does work out side the home , On thrd shift 4 nights a week . She uses that as way to be in her moods , I am getting tired of this . I have told her that she is what I want and I am happy with her .

I ask you ,Why would I go 3,000 miles to be with her If I where not ? She went into this M/s relashionship on her own and knowing all that is there . as we did sit down and do a contract together. She Knows all there is to be done .
I say to be a slave it comes from with in . she must find that within her ,as ive and many others have told her .
Yes I can make her do the kid thing like a kid , Meaning she must ask for everything that she does . To me that is not what a slave is . Yes there are thjings within this that she must ask for , but she knows what she is to do . Read your contract it is all there .

MasterStoney442

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:31:45 AM

elsie

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i currently am wearing Mistress's collar of consideration. i took her collar over a year ago, we have talked about making it permant and (i hope) will make it so sometime this summer.

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:38:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
"Breaking a slave" is an effective psychological technique that is actually related to the "violent heirarchical initiation" theme seen in youth gangs as well as chimpanzee troops. It is basic primate psychology to reinforce a social heirarchy, to effectively "hardwire" the behavioral submission response in the initiate to the dominant members of the troop.

I love a good beating as much if not more than the next, but I am certainly thankful that none of the Dominants that I have ever been involved with have subscribed to this philosophy. "Some" of us have our hardwiring firmly in place without having to be "broken" and we do what we do because it's what we find to be fulfilling and have given enough thought to it to make it our life's choice. Should a Dominant ever wish to experiment with my submission in such a way it would certainly be dealbreaker.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:40:00 AM

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Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

I'm not sure why you keep thinking that being harshly abused until past the point where you cannot handle it is a good thing. Perhaps you've never felt abuse before on a physical or mental level. It isn't fun. It isn't romantic. It isn't prideful. I've been pushed past a comfortable limit in play with my partner. It makes me sad. It's hard to stand up and it's hard to say "Stop" and it's hard to stop crying fitfully. I can't even turn to my partner and say "Help me" because I'm so far gone.

first off, this is in no way shape or form abuse, i never resent, regret or hold grudges over being physically overpowered. i welcome it because it is what He wants to give me, and thus is what i want from Him.

Perhaps, it is because i HAVE felt abuse that i am able to embrace the real consentuality of it. i embrace the fact that i do not desire to say no, while in the past i have.

i have not been manipulated, or scarred into believing this, all conclusions i reach on my own.

i am sorry if in the past your Master may have turned abusive but that does not mean there cannot be a very real success to breaking someone.

_____________________________

"lets just say he's a few prawns short of a galaxy"

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:41:41 AM

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From: Boston area, Massachusetts
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
"Breaking a slave" is an effective psychological technique that is actually related to the "violent heirarchical initiation" theme seen in youth gangs as well as chimpanzee troops. It is basic primate psychology to reinforce a social heirarchy, to effectively "hardwire" the behavioral submission response in the initiate to the dominant members of the troop.

I love a good beating as much if not more than the next, but I am certainly thankful that none of the Dominants that I have ever been involved with have subscribed to this philosophy. "Some" of us have our hardwiring firmly in place without having to be "broken" and we do what we do because it's what we find to be fulfilling and have given enough thought to it to make it our life's choice. Should a Dominant ever wish to experiment with my submission in such a way it would certainly be dealbreaker.

i dont think its being broken into submission as much as you showing Him you still desire to serve after such an extreme initiation.

_____________________________

"lets just say he's a few prawns short of a galaxy"

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:46:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
i dont think its being broken into submission as much as you showing Him you still desire to serve after such an extreme initiation.

I don't consider that breaking.

I've played games with sadists in the past "make me beg for mercy" that type of thing. And trust me, they had to break me down- stubbornness is far too light of a word for my state of mind at those times.

But that's not "breaking me." It's just forcing me past a certain level of tolerance.

And sure, I've gone to them, thanked them for it and asked for it again. I'm not a masochist, but I can and do endure pain.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:50:06 AM

KittenWithaTwist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

ok when i was talking mental i was referring along the lines of verbal manipulation etc

from some of the posts i have seen of you [including the one encouraging myself not to *come out*, and more recently the one where you claimed you werent submissive maybe at all] i feel you may be a bit jaded on the whole bit.

Heh. Yeah, I guess you could say I am a bit jaded. I'm not a romantic. I have zero romantic views about D/s. I'm a realist :) Also, I'm not "claiming" that I'm not submissive. I have a submissive personality sometimes. But I'm not submissive to my partner (except during sex play) and we do not have a D/s relationship. I wouldn't say that not being a D/s-er makes me jaded, persay. But I realized I didn't need to struggle to be a submissive partner when it isn't what makes me happy.

quote:

maybe your Master hadnt shown you enough love i am not one to know, but i am aware of the fact that my Master could beat me to tears every day, and every day i would still thank Him for it and tell Him about how much i love Him.

My partner (not master) is a very loving man, and we have a very close relationship. We are best friends, partners, lovers, and roommates. Regardless of how much he and I love each other, if he beat me and I didn't want him to, I wouldn't thank him for doing it (although he doesn't do that). If I wanted him to hurt me, and he wished to do it, then I would thank him for doing it. Regardless of either situation, I love him. :)

quote:

as someone who was in a Nilla abusive relationship though, "It can make you question why you're there, make you wonder what you did wrong. If you can't stop it, you may question your motivations or your dom's motivations or you may start screaming for help and receive none."
the only times i felt that was when i was with someone addicted to abuse, real unwanted abuse, not the beatings i have consented to.

I see the "breaking" situation as abusive, whether or not you've consented. To me, being "broken" is going past the point of consent. It's going past the point of comfort. It's being forced to do something you do not want and do not like and doing it anyway. If you're consenting the whole time and loving it-you're not being broken. You're being a masochist. Being broken-the very word-implies a snap or an injury in the physical body or the mind.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:50:17 AM

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i was describing my impression of the importance to the event.

i mean, what else could a master hope to attain from such an action?

_____________________________

"lets just say he's a few prawns short of a galaxy"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:52:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
i dont think its being broken into submission as much as you showing Him you still desire to serve after such an extreme initiation.

mixie,
Having been in long term D/s and M/s that have lasted as long as 11 years, I can tell you that I have experienced more physical pain at the hands of a Master than most people in this world can ever comprehend. I have endured beatings that would make most cringe. But they were done because that is what He wanted to do....and I endured them because that is what I wanted to do. I had every opportunity to "prove" my submissive nature to him and love and be devoted to him after the fact. But I would suggest to you that once you have been in relationships that are live in and that long of a term, you will realize that submitting to a physical scene, regardless of it's intensity, pales in comparison to living out your everyday life day in and day out in the constant submission to another's Dominance, through all of yours and his different moods and the emotions you may feel for each other at the moment. I have not though, nor would I ever, subject myself to another human being who thought of themselves as some kind of psychological God who was put on earth to use me as their guinea pig.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mixielicous)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:53:16 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
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From: Cali
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rose442
How does a slave get broken by her Master if there are kids in the home? ........
Or what can be done to make me fill like there is no more room for love in my heart for my Master?

Personally, I do NOT beleive in breaking. Why would someone want to change another person? You were attracted to the package before so why change it? Bad habits are one thing, smoking, drinking, drugs, chewing with one's mouth open, that sorta stuff are suppose to be broken, but in the way that I know of 'breaking a slave' is to break thier will, which I think is cruel and contradictory. Who wants to play with anything broken?!?!

_____________________________

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"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to rose442)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:54:20 AM

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"maybe your Master hadnt shown you enough love "

was referring to the one to cause your opinions on the matter, not current partner.

_____________________________

"lets just say he's a few prawns short of a galaxy"

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 10:59:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist
I've never heard of "breaking" being used successfully in my community. I first heard of the term online, and only online people pushed the concept. To my knowledge, not a single one of my D/s friends (some who have been participating in D/s relationships for upwards of 10 or 15 years) has ever seen or done a "breaking" as part of their relationships.

I have seen "slave breaking" attempted several times, and I have also seen a number of public collaring/branding/piercing/cutting enslavement ceremonies that I believe were inspired by this underlying psychological theme. The belief, whether consciously stated or not, seems to be that the "violent rite of heirarchical initiation", the intensity of the SM experience, will flip a switch of sorts in the submissive's mind and make him or her more profoundly submissive, more profoundly enslaved.

Does it work? Yes and no. Again let us return to our primate origins for insight, and look to our parallels and counterparts among primate troops and youth gangs. A newly submissive member of a chimpanzee troop who is "taught his place" will be effectively cowed for a time, but it is rare that he will be a permanent omega in status unless that is his basic nature to begin with. A "gang banged" inductee into a youth gang may well be its dominant leader in a few years, after proving himself with suitably bold deeds that are disapproved of by the outside world. The violent rite of heirarchical initiation is highly effective among primates as a fluid social dynamic, but not as a permanent on or off switch for any specific behavior. The "violent heirarchical initiation" is a useful induction tool, but it is not a realistic expectation that its effects will persist in the absence of consistent day to day reinforcement, or in the presence of a basically non submissive personality.

quote:

I'm not sure why you keep thinking that being harshly abused until past the point where you cannot handle it is a good thing. Perhaps you've never felt abuse before on a physical or mental level. It isn't fun. It isn't romantic. It isn't prideful. I've been pushed past a comfortable limit in play with my partner. It makes me sad. It's hard to stand up and it's hard to say "Stop" and it's hard to stop crying fitfully. I can't even turn to my partner and say "Help me" because I'm so far gone.

For some, this "space beyond subspace" becomes a transcendant experience that they specifically seek for various personal reasons. I have "service topped" a number of people into this extreme place, generally at their request. In two cases it was to help them integrate a negative life experience into a positive lifestyle choice; these were former Vietnam veterans who had experienced nonconsensual captivity. In another case it was more of a spiritual or shamanic initiation, and the bottom was seeking an "out of body" experience to help them gain spiritual perspective. This theme can also be seen in a number of primitive societies, such as the fakirs of India with skewers through their cheeks that transport them to an ecstatic state, or the Native American pole dance where braves seeking to break through the barriers between flesh and the spirit world hung themselves from piercings by hooks and pulled them free, dancing.

Make no mistake: this is highly, highly advanced play, and it is NOT RECOMMENDED for everyone. One of my recurring nightmares is to have somebody turn to me and say brightly, "But what could possibly go wrong with this red-hot branding iron scene with inverted nipple ring suspension? I've read three whole books by John Norman...." I don't want to sound like an elitist, but I get worried when I hear about people playing on this level unless I am confident that they have an extremely high level of competence with the human body and psyche. And even then, confidence is not always enough.

quote:

Does that sound fun? It isn't. Trust me. You're not taking something for your dominant. You're being hurt and abused.

Depends on the individual and the situation. I've agreed to take people to that "space beyond subspace" several times, but only once was it for the purpose of deepening my D/s relationship. The other times I was acting as a service top, a shaman, a healer, a priest, a guide to someone else's inner space. It really depends on the individuals involved and their goals and agendas.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)

RE: slaves being broken - 5/16/2006 11:02:58 AM

KittenWithaTwist

Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

I'm not sure why you keep thinking that being harshly abused until past the point where you cannot handle it is a good thing. Perhaps you've never felt abuse before on a physical or mental level. It isn't fun. It isn't romantic. It isn't prideful. I've been pushed past a comfortable limit in play with my partner. It makes me sad. It's hard to stand up and it's hard to say "Stop" and it's hard to stop crying fitfully. I can't even turn to my partner and say "Help me" because I'm so far gone.

first off, this is in no way shape or form abuse, i never resent, regret or hold grudges over being physically overpowered. i welcome it because it is what He wants to give me, and thus is what i want from Him.

Perhaps, it is because i HAVE felt abuse that i am able to embrace the real consentuality of it. i embrace the fact that i do not desire to say no, while in the past i have.

i have not been manipulated, or scarred into believing this, all conclusions i reach on my own.

i am sorry if in the past your Master may have turned abusive but that does not mean there cannot be a very real success to breaking someone.

*chuckles* He didn't turn abusive. Thanks though-I realize I may have put out the wrong words. We've done some harsh play and sometimes it goes too far before I realize it. It isn't abuse, it's just the point where I can handle it blurs. If that makes sense. Also, please stop saying my "Master". He's my partner. If you like, you may call him my "Top" or just "A" (as that's what his name begins with). It's a little frustrating. Thanks.

As for the breaking...the term breaking, in my mind, implies abuse. It brings to my mind a host of images-a circus animal being repeatedly hit with an electric cattle prod, a dog being beaten with a bat until it cries, a non-consensual slave being whipped until he/she bleeds, and etc. That's what I see in my head when you describe being caned until your skin breaks and you bow and say "Please stop, I'm yours, I'll give you everything I can if you stop." It sounds so romantic, doesn't it? Not to me.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to mixielicous)

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