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Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 8:50:06 AM   
yummee


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline 		Well, we've just come through a tunnel of hell and I am getting very discouraged with my research. The past year and a half have been very stressful, full of some amazing highs and lows, and along the way, B lost control of his alcohol consumption. He's always been a drinker but was never hurtful. We were aware, however, that at some point, it escalates, and this is what began to happen. So, we detoxed him this weekend, spent his weekly beer money on a RC airplane, inquired about flying clubs, and I am researching possible assistance for when he might need it. I can't believe what I am finding.

I am getting two very disturbing vibes from those in the popular recovery program as well as the affiliated loved-ones group. 1) Apparently, B has not hit rock bottom because he has not lost his job, house, family, etc. Because the damage he has done to his loved ones has not been devastating, popular consensus is that we are about to start a cycle of relapse and struggle until he hits rock bottom. 2) That I should be gone. He will not be encouraged to hold on to this relationship. He needs to focus on himself ONLY, and supposedly I have some disease and need to make my own life independent of him so he can make his life with people like himself.

WTF?!?!?! I call BS. I just don't believe that. He's got a good support system here. The whole reason for all the stress was that B quit his job (that he loved), spent our last dime (and then some), packed up his mother FFS, and moved us all 3000 miles away so that I can care for mother during her back surgery recovery and be here as her illness progresses. The closest job he could find was an hour away and he worked 12 hour shifts without complaint until he could find one literally 5 minutes from my mother's. He's bought a compound with a house for us, a house for his mother (she paid for that though), a cottage for my mother, and a shop. I refuse to believe that we are this close to having it all, but are somehow doomed to fail as a couple.

I know this is kind of a rant, but I am dumfounded. I worked in a secondary treatment facility 20+ years ago and I don't remember that attitude at all. Ok, now that I've ranted, here's where we are: B is expressing anxiety over how to enjoy things without alcohol. He's taken active positive steps and he feels strong (although anxious, annoyed, shame), but he can't seem to wrap his head around not having a beer in his hand and living moment to moment. I'm thinking of spending next week's beer money on a new chair? Would it seem less awkward to sit in a chair you didn't used to always have a beer in? B doesn't generally require a lot of outside socialization. We are a little introverted, do something maybe twice a month, so I think we can find enough dry places to fulfil that need. What about around the house? That's where he drank. He's starting to get up and take over things I am doing (changing light bulb type stuff), so maybe a kind of honey-do list? That seems odd considering our M/s relationship, but I think it would be fine and good for him. I don't think he would feel topped ... we are long past spontaneous role reversal phobia. Life happens, sometimes M's fail, for better or for worse, etc.

I guess I am just looking for some reassurance I didn't find at all over there ... and maybe thoughts from people who have been here, both sides of the kneel, both sides of the beercan?

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 10:03:07 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		Been in your shoes and believe me, I wish you all the best and I also hope that for B it works out for the best.

Rock bottom seems to be different for each person, I went through counseling with an ex who really had a hard core drinking problem, he still might have it, I broke contact as it was too depressing to watch and I was always roped in again, "helping him out" when actually it was enabling him.

You do know that most relationships do fail when one partner goes through addiction and rehab, not trying to discourage you but it's just what happens, and in a lot of cases the relationship acts as an enabler, you care for somebody and you want to make it easy for him or her, help them, when in fact you are taking that responsibility off them, which is something they need to do to grow out of the addiction.

Maybe a good idea would be to spend the beer money on redecorating? But essentially if he doesn't have the will to not drink, not have a beer can in his hand, you can do whatever you like and it won't work.

Have you considered a temporary split? Just to give him the chance to work it out on his own, give him some power back, let him achieve something on his own? You know if you do all that for him, then it's not his achievement and right now it seems that he needs to achieve on his own to get his confidence back.

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 10:19:12 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I had a look at your profile to see your location.  You're in a fairly big city, so there should be a number of groups in the area for support.  On a hypothetical, if you went to an AA meeting and got the 'you haven't hit rock bottom' bit from one particular AA group, find another one.  Heck, go to NA if you have to.  Try a different program if you need it.  We just had a thread a couple of weeks back in Politics and Religion where different recovery options were being discussed.  Maybe find one of those, just to get that little bit of help that you need.  Might be worth trying.

_____________________________

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 11:22:15 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		My ex got sober when I said get help or get out. He admitted he couldn't stop, called an old friend who had gotten sober years before, and started going to meetings. He was careerwise very successful at that point. In fact they had lunch meetings in the basement of his office building.

My 18 year old has just acknowledged he's inherited this disease. He graduated high school, is enrolled in college for the fall and is going to meetings. He's also going to some meetings at the county mental health clinic run by a professional. Very helpful.

You do need to think about other things that won't have association with alcohol. With the ex, we had to quit going to a couple of local restaurants that he had drunk at. So we found new ones instead. He stopped watching football.

The teen sees friends to play basketball, go to the gym, but doesn't go to parties at night any more.

I will say that the first year is hell on a relationship. Pretty much they're insane. You may want to put the d/s on hold for now. As far as social interactions go, he needs a sponsor and he'll be having daily interactions with him. Even if it's just a two minute phone call at night saying he hasn't drunk any today.

I would have him make a list of stuff he's always wanted to try. And do physical stuff out of the house. Walks, hiking, picnic at the lake. New fun stuff that doesn't have any associations with drinking.


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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 11:44:05 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I am getting two very disturbing vibes from those in the popular recovery program as well as the affiliated loved-ones group. 1) Apparently, B has not hit rock bottom because he has not lost his job, house, family, etc. Because the damage he has done to his loved ones has not been devastating, popular consensus is that we are about to start a cycle of relapse and struggle until he hits rock bottom. 2) That I should be gone. He will not be encouraged to hold on to this relationship. He needs to focus on himself ONLY, and supposedly I have some disease and need to make my own life independent of him so he can make his life with people like himself.


If those particular AA/Alanon groups don't work for you, try others.

I didn't need to have any of those bottoming out events happen. I quit with the help of Rational Recovery meetings. Smart Recovering is a similar approach. Whatever works for him and you.

quote:

He's taken active positive steps and he feels strong (although anxious, annoyed, shame), but he can't seem to wrap his head around not having a beer in his hand and living moment to moment.


Come to think of it, I was really into yoga at the time I quit. Yoga can definitely help manage all these emotions. You can substitute therapy if yoga is not an option but his brain establishing new patterns will be quite helpful as you will see:

http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/679
http://www.kripalu.org/article/860/

Mukta Kaur Khalsa believes meditation and yoga can serve as an enhancement to the 12-Step approach. Khalsa serves as the director for SuperHealth, a Kundalini “system of yogic science to break habits and addictive behaviors” that offers a training program using “practical technologies” taught by Kundalini master Yogi Bhajan. SuperHealth, which has been rated in the top 10 percent of residential treatment programs in the United States, partners with the medical model but addresses recovery first with Kundalini Yoga and meditation, detoxifying foods and juices, and more, in order to calm and purify the addict’s taxed nervous system. “All body systems get broken down during addiction,” Khalsa says, “and you need the ability to move through challenges. Kundalini [practices] give the person grit and determination.”...“Anyone can do Kundalini,” Khalsa says, “and they will benefit from it.”

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 11:47:15 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		I went to the Rational recovery site, and they said they dont HAVE meetings..  *sigh* http://www.rational.org/index.php?id=51

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 11:54:09 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Ya, there's been a change since 1999.

Try Smart Recovery: http://www.smartrecovery.org/meetings_db/view/

Lots of online stuff: http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/




< Message edited by kalikshama -- 6/30/2011 12:04:27 PM >

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 11:58:04 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		Thanks, hon.. still not working for me (all out of area), but I hope it works for others

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polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 12:13:04 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		There's no actual yoga postures in this. Disc 1 is yoga philosophy and disc 2 is guided meditations. This CD can help calm the "drunken monkey mind" that can lead to addiction. It's also really good for anxiety.

Yoga for Emotional Flow

More than 4,000 years ago, the early masters of yoga made an astonishing discovery: before we can find true happiness, we must first learn how to be open to the energy of our emotions. On Yoga for Emotional Flow, Stephen Cope, psychotherapist and Senior Scholar-in-Residence at Kripalu, the largest yoga center in America, presents a life-changing strategy for "riding the wave" in even the most challenging emotional situation. Cope details the psychology behind the difficult circumstances we create for ourselves through improper handling of our feelings, and shares the prescription for effectively relating to anger, fear, grief, joy, and others from a yogic point of view. Through breathing and visualization techniques used successfully by thousands of his students, Cope offers listeners practical tips for day-to-day emotional balance; lessons in awakening the "witness consciousness"--a nonjudgmental vantage point for welcoming emotions; steps for clearing the field at the end of each day, and more. For the yogi, there are no "bad" feelings--only unskillful responses to our ever-changing emotional states. Yoga for Emotional Flow is an essential program for working with these powerful forces, and a template for a new way of being.

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 12:33:30 PM   
Charnegui


Posts: 1352
Joined: 5/1/2011
From: Puzzled
Status: offline 		Well, YOU have to decide what to do. In my prev relationship, he didnt hit hard bottom, but I did.
I have been waiting too long, to get help, help for myself that is, he didnot admit he has a problem.

But there you are ahead of us, B has admitted he has a problem and he is working on it, although shame and other emotions are still in the way.
The admitting is the biggest step of all. That's why I don't believe you should split up.
You only do that when you're at the last possibility.

I wish you luck and healthness and love for one another in this struggle. Be understanding and helpfull as much as you can, but be yourself always. Never give in on that.

I feel for you and have you in my positive thoughts also.

huggss
C

_____________________________

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 1:09:00 PM   
yummee


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you all for your responses and support.

Lady Constanze: I've had some very good tools and we have both had family support all along. While I can't say there was never any enabling on anyone's part, we have not been running around covering for him, hiding empties, calling bosses, etc. It hasn't gotten nearly to that point. We had an honest discussion about the fact that love can be killed ... deader than dead ... and if this is the path you set for us, I want you to say it to my face. That was the turning point, but I was encouraged that he did not say things like, "I can't live without you, I'll quit." What he did was sleep on it then share with me his struggles of the past 6 weeks. He doesn't make it sound like he's quitting for me. His wording is more like his life will be diminished without me and he is not willing to do that to himself. Neither of us is ready to consider a split at this point. He is still in the frame of mind that the reason he is quitting is so that he can enjoy THIS life that he has. I suppose that could be impossible, but I guess I'm getting pissed with this, "There, there, we will take him from here." vibe before they even ask what we (his loved ones) have done to help or harm him or ourselves.

LadyPact: Thank you. I just got back from an Alanon meeting about an hour away. It was not very specific to me, being an "adult child of alcoholics" meeting, but it was what was available at the time. I'll check out some more. I am hopeful. He is determined. We are starting to look at perhaps professional therapy, a mixture of one-on-one and couple/group.

DesFIP: Thank you. I am aware that this is the beginning of the journey. It's frightening, but I am strong. I'm more looking forward to it than dreading it. We don't do any scening or play, just the authority transfer, but much of that has been on hold naturally anyway, due to the drinking. It seemed to be a natural response to the drinking? We don't feel any need to return to it immediately. It will come back naturally, if at all ... if not, we adjust or possibly move on.

kalikshama: Thank you. I will recommend yoga. I have it on my wii fit even! Also, thanks for the other group links. They even have instant online chat support.

Thank you all for your words. I had been feeling so relieved, then like a gut punch when we first reached out. I am feeling better now. We will keep looking for support (he is also looking for himself). Any positive energies or prayers would be appreciated.

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 1:38:39 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I understand that you feel pissed about it and it is great that you are getting support for yourself, in my relationship the problem was he was lying about it, pretending to do something about it, pretending to go to therapy.... I didn't even know that he had lost his job for months, he pretended to go to work... What I meant with enabling was, he had lost the job, couldn't pay his rent (when I had finally kicked him out, after I had found a flat for him to stay and paid the deposit and the first few rents just to get him out of my flat) and he gave me the song and dance about living on the street, I helped out, he borrowed money from people you shouldn't borrow from, I didn't want him to have bones broken, paid... In short did too much wrong, the whole time I had no support system and was just burned out in the end, when he started to become physically violent, it was the end of the line for me.

As long as you know you're not the one who's carrying the whole emotional burden, it's fine! I'm so pleased that you are seeing groups for yourself, wish I would have had the smarts to do that...

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 1:48:55 PM   
yummee


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I understand that you feel pissed about it and it is great that you are getting support for yourself, in my relationship the problem was he was lying about it, pretending to do something about it, pretending to go to therapy.... I didn't even know that he had lost his job for months, he pretended to go to work... What I meant with enabling was, he had lost the job, couldn't pay his rent (when I had finally kicked him out, after I had found a flat for him to stay and paid the deposit and the first few rents just to get him out of my flat) and he gave me the song and dance about living on the street, I helped out, he borrowed money from people you shouldn't borrow from, I didn't want him to have bones broken, paid... In short did too much wrong, the whole time I had no support system and was just burned out in the end, when he started to become physically violent, it was the end of the line for me.

As long as you know you're not the one who's carrying the whole emotional burden, it's fine! I'm so pleased that you are seeing groups for yourself, wish I would have had the smarts to do that...


I'm probably over emotional atm. The lack of REM sleep for both of us during his detox was brutal, and we are both still boucing back from that. This is what I'm talking about, though. I was just reading a SUPPORT thread for spouses of alcoholics where they were discussing the "us vs them" feel.

“Perhaps, in sobriety, he discovered what a self-centered b*tch you were.”
“Some people just don't want to recover.”
“Obviously she didn't spend enough time in Al-Anon if she is blaming AA for killing her marriage.”

I've been on collar chat for a while now, so I know how message boards can be. Lets just say that after that "support" board, I've decided to come for my message board support on a kink site, lol. That's only half a joke. Maybe I'm a bit too raw to go there just yet?

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 2:58:37 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not surprised that you are over emotional, it's a very emotional time and quite draining.

The problem is that a lot of relationships don't survive the getting sober phase, but you knew each other before the problem started, so I think you have a better chance of pulling through, imagine it the other way, you don't know the real person, just the drunk and all of a sudden you find out you're together with a completely different person, or the other way round, you just saw somebody through beer goggles and then you sober up...

I don't think they are trying to discourage you but they are just telling you what happens in a lot of cases, doesn't have to happen in yours though!

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 4:15:25 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		You have been with this man for eight years.  Dealt with his ailing mother, moved, etc.  I think if you both want to, you can come out the other side of this.

I agree with the others that you just keep going to different meetings until you find the one that works for you, but in my opinion, there are two things that I think you can "change" with what you are currently doing.

HE needs to do the research for the meetings and whatever else support groups he wants to attend.  I think by doing that, he isn't relying on you to find him where to go and such.  If it is an issue of he isn't computer savvy, then make him sit with you, if you aren't already doing that.  The more he does towards his over recovery back to being sober and happy, the better.

While I find your new chair idea inventive, what about this?  Let him choose something that HE wants to spend his beer money on.  If there are things that your family has not been able to have due to his drinking, obviously you need to take care of those things first.  If not, then by letting him choose, he can actively see all the things that he can have if the money isn't lost on drinking.  Or even put it away for a really nice vacation to celebrate his 12 months sober.  Something to work towards and look forward to.

As others have said, it isn't going to be an easy time for either of you, but I'm one of those sappy people who believes that love can conquer all when both people want it to.

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 7:09:01 PM   
yummee


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline 		LadyConstanze: You're probably right. I've also got some anger I haven't been able to vent and I suspect I may have found a likely target? I'll keep looking and reaching until I find someplace that feels right or until I discover I've been being an ass and missing the obvious.

LafayetteLady: Thank you. You are right as well. He should be doing that. He is looking into his own research, but not as much as me and I sooo want to help! I am nervous and hyper and am just going to take a deep breath. I'm probably smothering him, huh?

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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 7:29:46 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I don't think you are smothering him at all.  I see it this way....

You love this man.  After all, you did marry him, right?  Now that he has admitted the problem, you are anxious to see he gets the help he needs, and so you are also in a hurry to find what he needs.  If he were diagnosed with some medical problem, you would probably look for all the information you could on it, right?  Only difference is that then, him finding it for himself wouldn't be as important.

Deep breaths are good.  Yoga would probably be something good for you, too.  This is something you are going through together, but not together.  Does that make sense to you?  You want to stand by him, and help all you can, but this is something you need to take deep breaths and let him do for himself.  Think of it like a baby learning to walk.  A mother wants to hold her baby's hand and make sure that he/she doesn't fall.  But if you don't let go, your baby will never stand on their own.

Don't forget that you can't forget about your needs here.  Take a yoga class, take one together, you'll both benefit.  But don't get so caught up in wanting to help and support your husband that you forget to do things for yourself.

(in reply to yummee)
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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 7:33:27 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm surprised that you had to find something that was an hour away.  A city that size should have more.  (At least you would think so.)

This may be out of right field, but have you though about reaching out to some of the folks on the boards that are in recovery for some support?  We have some folks on CM who have been sober/clean for years.  Maybe you could get some ideas from them.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to yummee)
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RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 8:17:17 PM   
yummee


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you Ladies! I am so appreciating the back and forth. I am hopeful and optimistic that we will come through this. My MIL returns from her Canadian trip tomorrow night (B hasn't told her yet and she will be so happy) and I will have more support for myself. My mother has been amazing as well, popping in during the detox to drop off soothing supplies so I would not have to leave the house. She called B the next day and told him she loves him.

The only daytime meeting I have been able to find is in the middle of B.R., an hour with downtown traffic. The evening meeting hops around, but looks like two night a week it is within 15 minutes. I don't live in the city, just was the closest real city people would recognize on a profile. If I don't like what I find in B.R., I can always go to N.O., also about an hour away. We have a good mental health system here as well, so I'm not out of options yet.

3 days and I am feeling good, a little nervous, very hyper, positive ... I am smiling ... is that lack of REM sleep? lol



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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Alcoholism - 6/30/2011 8:42:04 PM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		It's funny just when you are getting ready to turn off the computer and to go to bed and something catches your eye..... I have so much to say, so if it doesn't come out coherent I will apologize for that upfront. It's just that A) I'm very passionate about this topic B) I'm very well informed and C) the messages you have gotten are old, outdated and lethal. Having said that: While I admire your ability and willingness to detox him at home I do hope you knew what you were doing and how dangerous it was. Alcohol is one of the two drugs that people can actually die when they are going through withdrawal from. I say this not to scare you or to shame you into feeling bad, but in case you should ever know anyone else who considers doing this at home on their own.....  Secondly regarding the whole "he has to hit Rock Bottom" bullshit. Well from a recovery standpoint the first step in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous tell me that's simply not true according to the people you talk to's definition of 'rock bottom'. What it says in the book is that I can choose when I want to be done. I can choose when and where I want my bottom to be. {I could go into the whole historical reasoning and rational of why this came to be but I don't want to bore you with un-necessary details at this time}. I was unclear if you had only contacted the recovery community or if you had actually attempted to contact any actual treatment centers. If you did and these were the types of messages that you got from them here's what I would recommend you do first and foremost to find a treatment center close to you. Go to www.samhsa.gov website and put in treatment locator and put in what you are looking for... Most likely an outpatient facility, blah blah blah... Call these places. The first and primary question I would ask them is if they practice the "Stages of Change".  Because what it sounds to me like is you may have gotten in contact with some treatment providers who are still hung up on what I like to term as "old school" treatment. Where an alcoholic had to loose everything before they could get sober. This same modality also believes you have to break the person down before you can build them back up. There are so many inherent flaws with this system.....now is not the time nor the place for me to begin addressing these.

Hopefully this will be beneficial information for you...

The last thing that I want to comment on is your response to basically not being able to 'fix' him. Understand that this problem is bigger than him and you. It doesn't mean he loves you any less and it doesn't make you any less of anything. It's a disease and the sooner the two of you can accept this the better off the two of you will be. Additionally if I remember correctly I think I perceived some offense to someone insinuating you were somehow 'sick' or had issues because of  HIS alcoholism.. I get that...Trust me I do.. But the reality is, he has trained you to respond to him in certain ways while he was drinking.. That doesn't go away over night. Part of him getting clean is everyone getting healthy... Just be open to the solution and remain teachable. Then it's win win for everyone.
Let me know if I can be of any assistance.
You can do this!!
Kali


_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb


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