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RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 8:51:20 AM

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Hannah, what I meant was that I knew people would come rushing in to say no capital punishment because of the statistics on a certain number of people being innocent getting convicted. I cannot address that topic.

I said "specifics" to keep the discussion to the questions of the OP. In this specific case, where this lunatic killed this boy, I go for capital punishment, whether or not you believe that is also murder.

I am fairly sure the kid's parents would agree with me on this specific issue.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 7/17/2011 8:52:11 AM >

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 8:59:02 AM

HannahLynHeather

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i don't give a fuck about the kid's parents or what they think. if they want the guy dead they should do it themselves and deal with the shit that follows. capital punishment is the ultimate fucking obscenity, there is no greater crime.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 9:11:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

i don't give a fuck about the kid's parents or what they think. if they want the guy dead they should do it themselves and deal with the shit that follows. capital punishment is the ultimate fucking obscenity, there is no greater crime.

I agree. The United States is one of the few countries in the world that practices such a barbaric "punishment" and calls it justice. The others are third world countries. Despite what I said about Marge Deihl not deserving to life, I would't want to live in a state that was so cruel as to put to death somebody so damaged as that woman.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 10:17:42 AM

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In the two specific instances that you're asking about, I have a lot of difficulty having much sympathy for either of them. I have much greater sympathy for the children associated with both cases. As far as Donna Simpson goes, if it were her and *only her* that we were talking about (meaning not her child and skipping the fact that society is going to end up paying her ridiculous medical and other costs as she destroys herself) I could probably say that I don't have sympathy for her at all. Lots of people abuse themselves in various ways that I'd be more concerned about.

As to the other case, the only sympathy that I've got is My sense of humanity protecting the alleged offender from abuse should he ever serve out a sentence. I might be able to conjure some up if the man literally didn't know right from wrong (highly unlikely) or it can be shown in some way that his lack of mental ability made him not responsible for his actions (also unlikely as I'm not getting any impression from news reports that he's a lunatic). It doesn't pull My heartstrings to think that this man might need to be locked up and never see the light of day again. He ended a child's life and he isn't going to suffer nearly as much as the boy did or the anguish that the family will have to endure.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 10:27:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

On this thread, so many were sympathetic to the man who murdered and cut up a young innocent boy, saying we owe him treatment, not death, because he is obviously mentally ill. I agree with the mentally ill part, but I am not so kind as to not want to shoot him right between the eyes.

On this thread, the discussion turned to a woman who is eating her self to death, all in the name of getting in to the Guinness Book of World records and the replies, thus far, have called her an idiot and even indicated that it is a good thing she will not be around long because she is such a bad example for her kid. I also agree that she is a horrid example, but I see mental illness in her as much as the murdering scum who is mentioned in the first paragraph.

How do you feel about the two scenarios? I am sympathetic to the person who is hurting only them self. I can not find one iota of give a damn for someone who kills another human being, no matter how many doctors would claim they did not know they were doing wrong.

Just wondering how others minds see this.

I'm against the death penalty, no exceptions! Doesn't mean I have any sympathy for the guy who killed the boy, but just that I think the death penalty is wrong, as too many innocent people have died.

As for the woman, she might have issues, I am sure she has, nobody remotely sane would turn herself into a disgusting blob, shorten her life and be on her way to be a massive burden on the health system. I reserve my sympathy for the people who have an accident and who might not get treatment because funds are lacking because she wanted to be the fattest woman in the world... If it would come to her getting treatment, I would deny it, because she brought it on all herself, she doesn't want to change, she doesn't want help, she wants to capitalize on her being an obese blob and eating herself to death - well, it's her own free will...

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RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 10:30:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

The child killer, is without a doubt insane, but insanity does not always equate to being a mentally ill.

Ummmm....yes it does.

quote:

Regardless, if he is ever tried, that might be held up due to him not being sane enough to stand trial, he will most likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

You do realize if someone is not competant to stand trial, they CAN NOT get to the sentencing phase that follows a trial and puts them in prison.

quote:

Even in PA or some other state other than NY, it is virtually impossible to execute the mentally ill. Though it does happen, advocacy groups like NAMI will be all this thing to keep him alive based on the assumption that he did not understand he was doing anything wrong. I tend to have mixed thoughts on that. He did hide the body, implying a level of knowledge of right and wrong. He also led the police straight to the body, implying either remorse or a disconnect in the knowledge that he had done anything at all wrong or even remotely unusual.

NAMI can write Amicus briefs to be used in appeals (although they aren't likely to be given as much consideration as you seem to think), they can even pay for a private (as in one of their attorneys) to represent the person on appeal. However, this is typically used for people that are mentally challenged, as in those with IQs' of small children. By the time they reach the appeal stage, the time for the "assumption that he did not understand he was doing anything wrong" has long since past. That is determined should there be a hearing to determine competency to stand trial.

quote:

I'm not sure if anybody remembers the Brian Wells neck bomber case. That case occurred right in my city. I knew the woman who was at the center of it, and the only person to eventually go to jail because of it. Marge Deihl was insane by any definition. However, it took several years to get her "sanity" tested, get her into court ordered treatment and finally hold her trial. And that wasn't even the first murder she'd committed. She had shot a boyfriend in the early '80s, spent several years in the PA woman's prison for that. Then a year or two before Brian Wells was killed, her husband died under mysterious circumstances and authorities actually think she did it but she will never be charged with that murder. And they think she may have been involved in at least 2 other murders. Marge Diehl doesn't deserve to draw another breath, but she will live because it is nearly impossible to execute her.

Well, you knowing her doesn't really speak very well of you. But I am quite confused how if you actually "knew" her, you could have gotten so many of the facts wrong about the case. First it was not a capital murder case. While I don't know why the prosecution did not try her for capital murder, it was not an option. In the Brian Wells case, she wasn't even charged with the murder itself, but rather as a conspirator and a couple of other things, none of them murder. She was convicted of the murder of her boyfriend, and her plea was "guilty but mentally ill." If you read the link I posted earlier, you would see, such a plea doesn't take the death penalty off the table.

Brian Wells Murder

She will live because she was sentenced to life in prison, not because anyone is keeping her alive. Incidentally since she was charged at the age of 61, I doubt it will amount to 30 years in prison.
Even when guilt is not in doubt, capital cases take quite a while to prepare for trial and sentencing. Look at the Casey Anthony trial as an example. Psychological experts are not going to testify after talking to the defendant just one or two times for a couple of hours and testify about that person's mental capacity. It takes hours and hours for each side's experts to interview and examine the defendant to determine

Levi Aron will undoubtedly stand trial for the murder, and I predict that while an insanity plea may be used as a defense, it won't exonerate him of the crime. His actions were very strange, and he definately has some type of mental illness (there is currently talk of schizophrenia), but that alone does not add up to an insanity defense, regardless of how you reached your (very inaccurate) conclusions.

(in reply to erieangel)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 10:43:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I personally do not care if that child killer did it out of insanity; he deserves to be put away somewhere and never see the light of day, ever.

I believe in the death penalty because with prison and mental health facilities, there is always the chance that they will get out and kill again. And yeah, I know all about the statistics of innocent people being executed, but we are talking about specifics here.

I also find it hard to believe that it costs more to execute someone than to keep them fed and housed for a lifetime.

It is likely he will be put away for life without parole.

I also agree with the death penalty, but I further agree with the mandated appeals process and the length of time it takes, mostly for those who are pleading innocent. It allows time for that exoneration to be obtained. However, in cases like Timothy McVeigh, where there is no question of guilt, most especially by the defendant's own admission, I think the appeals become unnecessary.

Most people find it difficult to believe it costs more to execute than to house a prisoner, however, I took those statistics right off of web sites. They were not sites arguing against the death penalty, just simply giving statistical data. I was on my way out the door when I typed that post and didn't have the time to add the links, but here they are:

Death Penalty Information Center

(in reply to sexyred1)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 1:15:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

i don't give a fuck about the kid's parents or what they think. if they want the guy dead they should do it themselves and deal with the shit that follows. capital punishment is the ultimate fucking obscenity, there is no greater crime.

Hannah there are alot of times i agree with you, but in this instance i think you are talking crap. are you seriously saying that where it's proved that someone has killed however many people and ripped apart god knows how many lives in the process that killing that person is bigger than the crime they committed? bull shit. we are all taught right from wrong and killers do know what they are doing is wrong in the eyes of society even if they don't believe it for themselves. in fact alot of killers get off on the shear fact that they know they are doing wrong. in that instance fuck them, they gave up the right to compassion or anything else when they chose to take another life. why the hell should they live and be kept by the tax payer. the very people affected by them taking a son, daughter, mother, father etc actually paying taxes to keep the scum alive. that is no justice at all.

you kill a killer dog, being human is no better.

needles

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 1:40:28 PM

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As for NAMI, no they don't usually advocate for people with development disabilities, they advocate for the mentally ill, as their name implies--The National Alliance of the Mentally Ill. And NAMI has launched many successful campaigns taking people off death row due to that person being so mentally ill that they did not, nor will ever, recognize they've done anything wrong.

As for being sane enough to stand trial or not--it was decided by the courts that Giffords' shooter isn't competent enough to stand trial. So he will spend some time in a mental health facility, be given medications and psychotherapy and perhaps eventually, he will show enough competence to stand trial. This is what happened with Marge Diehl, as well. She was tested and treated and even spent time at a hospital in NY state, until she was stable enough to stand trial.

As for knowing Diehl, no, it does not reflect badly on me because of the circumstances...it wasn't like we were friends, i just knew who she was for several years. And her plea of 'guilty but mentally ill" only came after several years and included with the plea came assurances that she wouldn't be investigated for the suspicious deaths of her late husband and another boyfriend. She'd already spent several years in prison for the shooting death of another boyfriend and the Wells happened because Marge needed to have the money to hire somebody to kill her father. And yes, while she was convicted of the murder of her live-in boyfriend, she was also convicted in the Wells case of bank robbery, conspiracy and something else, I can't remember.

I am sorry you thought I had my facts wrong. For the sake of making the previous post shorter, I did not go into the details.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 2:10:08 PM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

are you seriously saying that where it's proved that someone has killed however many people and ripped apart god knows how many lives in the process that killing that person is bigger than the crime they committed?

no, not even fucking close.

quote:

wrong in the eyes of society

what society perceives things to be is of no fucking importance, an act is right or wrong in and of itself.

quote:

you kill a killer dog, being human is no better

if you're so fucking sure the person should die, do it yourself with your own hands. but to ritualize it and have the state do it in your name to absolve everybody of the guilt of their vengeance killing is the fucking obscenity.

society and the state are artificial constructs that only fucking exist in the collective imagination, they do not have the right to kill in revenge. it is the ultimate assault on the right of the individual, there is no higher crime than to assume the right to kill to the fucking collective without granting it to the members of that collective. if we, all together, can kill in revenge, then each of us individually can as well, you can't have it both ways, either we can or we can't.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 3:28:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

are you seriously saying that where it's proved that someone has killed however many people and ripped apart god knows how many lives in the process that killing that person is bigger than the crime they committed?
no, not even fucking close.

quote:

wrong in the eyes of society
what society perceives things to be is of no fucking importance, an act is right or wrong in and of itself.

quote:

you kill a killer dog, being human is no better
if you're so fucking sure the person should die, do it yourself with your own hands. but to ritualize it and have the state do it in your name to absolve everybody of the guilt of their vengeance killing is the fucking obscenity.

society and the state are artificial constructs that only fucking exist in the collective imagination, they do not have the right to kill in revenge. it is the ultimate assault on the right of the individual, there is no higher crime than to assume the right to kill to the fucking collective without granting it to the members of that collective. if we, all together, can kill in revenge, then each of us individually can as well, you can't have it both ways, either we can or we can't.

whatever you think Hannah, the fact is that we have society and the rules it lives by to try and keep things civil.

you know what, i could push the plunger or flick the switch, but it's not my job to do it. we have appointed people to stop vigalanties who could get it very wrong. it's not about vengence at all, it's about scum being taken out of circulation for good. if your dog savages someone without due cause it's killed by someone qualified to do it. the victim's people don't have to do it and nore should they. i don't see why a murderer should be any different for they most certainly are no better than the dog. in fact they are worse because they do know better than the dog.

you are right in that the act is either right or wrong; murder is wrong. killing a murderer to stop them full stop is not wrong. if you steal someone's life then you give up your rights. it really is that simple. killers should not be turned into victims. just because the victim's people can not, or will not kill the killer doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen by those who hold that position. nore does it make those people bad just because they can't/won't. me personally? i could kill them with a very clear conscience if the evidence proved that it was definately that person that had done the crime. fuck-em, they deserve nothing else.

needles

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 4:53:38 PM

HannahLynHeather

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your moral compass is seriously out of fucking whack. try all you want but your justifications are hollow and meaningless, the empty words of a vengeful coward.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 5:18:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

your moral compass is seriously out of fucking whack. try all you want but your justifications are hollow and meaningless, the empty words of a vengeful coward.

you have no idea of my strength. my words are not empty at all, just as those who do do the job already weren't using empty words when they said they could do the job. if it were legal in this country i'd apply for the job. it also has nothing to do with morals, my morals are perfectly fine thanks even though i don't agree with you.

myra hindley and ian brady, two of britains best known mass murderers of children. what they did was sick and very twisted and both as guilty as could be. i'd have gladly killed both of them if the courts ruled that that is what should happen and feel no guilt.

as i said, it's not about vengence at all. me killing someone who has killed one of my people, that would be vengence and i freely admit it, hence why it's not allowed. would i still do it, damn right i would.

you can stand on your moral high ground all you like, it doesn't make you right though. when it all comes down to it we are both wrong depending on which view people have. but there are people, a hell of alot of people, who agree with me even if they wouldn't come right out and say it. not all those people could push the plunger, or whatever, but that doesn't make them lesser people just because they don't agree with you.

when it comes to doing what needs to be done i'm certainly no coward, no matter how hard it is.

needles

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 5:31:42 PM

HannahLynHeather

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you want people to kill other people for you so you can be avenged for a wrong not done you and you claim your fucking morals are fine? you are morally bankrupt, utterly void of moral fibre of any sort.

and your words are fucking empty if you think they need to die kill them yourself or shut the fuck up. gutless, fucking gutless when push comes to shove, if they deserve it then why do you need to hide behind the fucking courts,? so you can wash your hands and say, see, not my doing. fucking cowardly murder is what it is.

if you think its right, shut the fuck up and do it.

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i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

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RE: Mental Health - 7/17/2011 6:55:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

As to the other case, the only sympathy that I've got is My sense of humanity protecting the alleged offender from abuse should he ever serve out a sentence. I might be able to conjure some up if the man literally didn't know right from wrong (highly unlikely) or it can be shown in some way that his lack of mental ability made him not responsible for his actions (also unlikely as I'm not getting any impression from news reports that he's a lunatic). It doesn't pull My heartstrings to think that this man might need to be locked up and never see the light of day again. He ended a child's life and he isn't going to suffer nearly as much as the boy did or the anguish that the family will have to endure.
[/color]

I think you hit the nail on the head here, LP. It isn't a matter of sympathy for Levi Aron, but the reality that depending on the facts that are revealed as the investigation is completed will determine how this whole thing plays out.

As I have repeatedly said, he will not receive the death penalty, even should information come to light that he watched that poor child for a week, planned the whole thing out and killed a hundred other children. New York State declared capital punishment unconstitutional, so the death penalty was off the table before they even knew where that child was.

In all liklihood, the investigation will only result in one of two penalties. Life without parole or life with the possibility of parole, formally directing "x" number of years which must be served prior to eligibility.

It isn't "sympathy" I feel for Aron, but a desire to know the facts surrounding why he did what he did, and whether or not the probability of treatment or rehabilitation is possible (although I don't know that I believe that possibility exists). So far nothing to indicate ongoing mental illness, although our local news has been reporting rumors his attorney mentioned hallucinations and hearing voices. To my knowledge, only basic evaluations (meaning nearly nothing) have been completed as he is in the lock down ward at Bellvue Hospital, where he will remain for some time.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 1:13:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

you want people to kill other people for you so you can be avenged for a wrong not done you and you claim your fucking morals are fine? you are morally bankrupt, utterly void of moral fibre of any sort.

and your words are fucking empty if you think they need to die kill them yourself or shut the fuck up. gutless, fucking gutless when push comes to shove, if they deserve it then why do you need to hide behind the fucking courts,? so you can wash your hands and say, see, not my doing. fucking cowardly murder is what it is.

if you think its right, shut the fuck up and do it.

Hannah you are being childish because i don't agree with you. the system is the way it is and there is nothing either one of us can do to change in the short term. i see no reason why someone who acts worse than an animal should be treated any better than one. nothing makes a human being better than anything else that romes this planet. if a wild, or domestic animal persisantly kills people it gets shot, whether by the family of the victim or by authority, but mostly by authority. we don't house it in a compound and treat it better than tons of people struggling to live. we don't try to 'reform' it to release it back into society and so on.

you are totally wrong saying i'm devoid of moral fibre of any sort, it's a very silly thing to say. it's one subject, not the whole of my life we are talking about and you're just bitching because you can't argue your case. telling me if i think they should die i should kill them is just as pointless as me saying well if you think they should live you pay for the fuckers instead of the rest of us who think they should die. i don't see why they should be treat better than our elderly who struggle to live. or our children who are allowcated less for meals and fed crap while they get double. i don't see why they should be warm and cared for when we have homeless on the streets dying because there arn't enough places or resources to help them. or the family struggling to feed their children etc etc etc

they are the people who deserve my moral stance, not some scum bag who thought they had the right to murder people and devastate god knows how many other lives around them. they want to act worse than any other animal then i see no reason why they should be treated any better than one. it's not like i'm saying they should suffer in their death, i'd do away with electrocution. but leathal injection is fine. we inject animals humanely and i see no reason why people shouldn't be the same.

you have refused to actually read my words correctly. i am willing to do it, just as i'd do it with my own dog, although it would hurt with my dog because they don't know any better. if my son killed people then i'd push the plunger on him too. it's not about being gutless and hiding behind courts, it's the way it is, if it were different i'd gladly do it. the killer is not a victim, they are scum and deserve nothing else.

i don't have to shut the fuck up Hannah, i'm as much at liberty to give my view as you or anyone else on the site. the fact is sweetheart i would do the job but can't because it doesn't exist here. i'm not telling you to shut the fuck up just because we don't agree. but in the same token you could turn your words right back on yourself and go and look after the scum yourself. have them in your house and you pay to look after them so those who think they should die don't have to. that way our money can be spent on people who deserve it more. you put yourself at risk, and those around you that you love. or are you gutless because we have people in authority and institutions to do that for you, and there's a court to hide behind. i don't see you running to take responsibility for them, in which case your words are far emptier than mine.

needles

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 1:56:09 AM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As I have repeatedly said, he will not receive the death penalty, even should information come to light that he watched that poor child for a week, planned the whole thing out and killed a hundred other children. New York State declared capital punishment unconstitutional, so the death penalty was off the table before they even knew where that child was.

If he killed in a state that allows capital punishment, New York can decide to allow another state put him to trial and sentence him to the death penalty.

Personally i dont feel sympathy for him there are millions on this planet that are suffering various degrees of mental illness that dont go out and commit murder.

I suffer from Borderline personality disorder, its estimated 1 in 9 serial killers or more suffer from this disorder, and yet i have no desire to tie anyone up and kill them.

I say Fry the fucker, or condemn him to the death he forced on that small child, the same manner and torture in his crime should be inflicted upon himself.

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(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 2:03:40 AM

HannahLynHeather

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i'm not telling you to shut up because i disagree with you, i'm telling you to "put up or shut up".

and you're doing nothing but making stupid empty excuses. its against the law...wah wah fucking wah. fuck the law, all laws are immoral so they are of no consequence. we're talking right and wrong, not legal and illegal. if you think vengeance killings are right, then do it. the law doesn't fucking enter into questions of right and wrong. the law is an immoral artificial construct created to deprive you of your liberty. law itself is wrong, so judicial murder is even more wrong. its muder and everyone who acquiesces to it is equally guilty.

< Message edited by HannahLynHeather -- 7/18/2011 2:05:13 AM >

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 2:45:40 AM

SpiritedRadiance

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what would you call saying shut up to a specific user besides to shut up.... seriously your making no point in your posts what so ever except your right everyone else is wrong and if they don't agree to shut up...

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(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 3:23:24 AM

HannahLynHeather

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still singing the same old song are you. there is a difference between "shut up" and "put up or shut up". if you can't see that, make an appointment with the fucking optometrist.

as to what i'm saying here it is in point form.
1. society has no rights, beyond those its members possess
2. governments are invalid, they have no legitimacy, so no act of government is legitimate
3. laws have no validity because they are enacted by governments to limit people's liberty
therefore the laws that allow the government to kill are immoral because
1. they are invalid
2. they are enacted by an invalid entity
3. in the name of an imaginary construct that does not have the right to kill

got it?

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i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

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