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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

leather is a community, that's practically the whole fucking point of it with you guys. it's the nebulous community that leather is supposedly a part of i was referring to. the amorphous bdsm one that somehow includes us all. but, as always hausboy, thanks for your perspective, i love reading you reminiscences. they speak to me on a really deep level and give me a glimpse of a life i can relate to, but never really knew existed.

which brings me to another point. if there is this huge fucking global community, how come i never heard shit about the leather folk before, eh?

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
which brings me to another point. if there is this huge fucking global community, how come i never heard shit about the leather folk before, eh?

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

no i haven't, but i'm adding them to my reading list. thanks.

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
why do people seem to think there is more to this shit, where does this backasswards idea of a "community" come from? and why do they think we are any fucking different than any other group of random people?

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ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon

I'm kind of glad someone pointed this out. I am really getting sick of people talking about "the community" or "the lifestyle." Fuck that. There's no standards here, or rules, or expectations that aren't the ones individuals set up for themselves. There is no "THE lifestyle." That's like saying that people that like having pet dogs are living "the lifestyle." It's just part of their life. Sure, they have something in common with other dog owners in that they both own dogs, but it doesn't qualify them as some stupid little club.

Now, I'm not talking about this website, I'm talking about as a whole. I suppose you could call this website a community, but as Hannah said, only because we're converging here to discuss/debate/talk about certain subjects. But as a whole, just because I don't fuck around and go to BDSM clubs and play publicly or any of that shit doesn't mean I'm "missing out" on the whole point of it. Who the fuck defines what the whole point of it is for me? I do. And the point of it for me is just the way my relationship runs. I don't think that qualifies me as being part of a "community" or "lifestyle" anymore than being heterosexual or homosexual does. It's just something that is part of MY life. What I do with my man and my sex life has nothing to do with a "community." I could give a damn how other people that do similar things with their lives chose to define it or run it. They can consider it a "community" all they want and take part in all sorts of community-related activities and make it into some sort of weird-ass convention of freaks, but that is just not for me. It's not some sort of secret club for me, I just happen to enjoy something that some other people also do in a similar fashion--with very broad perimeters, I might add.

So it's not a fucking community. Not for me. If there is one somewhere, I sure as hell am not part of it.

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ORIGINAL: hausboy

You've made me think about something--as a dyke, I was already feeling disenfranchised and so my Gay/Lesbian Community was my world....Gay and Lesbian Civil Rights really didn't skyrocket into the spotlight until 1969's Stonewall Riots, and without any queer role models, it was very isolating.  We stuck together as a way to support each other and survive.  I didn't always like everyone, but we considered one another "family"

when THAT community pushed me away for being into leather/BDSM, the leather/BDSM community was my new refuge.

Since I do not know anything about you, RaspberryLemon, I don't want to make any assumptions about your background.  So I'm saying this in general terms--not directed specifically at you--

if you have never experienced the discrimination and hatred that many of us endured for years, then finding a place to call your own-that is, a community--among people where you felt you belonged--may not be important to you.  The leather community (and the LGBT Community) was a safe-haven.  A place both physical and conceptual, where I felt safe from the violence and hatred of the rest of the world.

Edited to add:   And yes--we DID have "secret" little clubs--we had to.  The police would regularly do busts and not always legally or with the intent to enforce the law. 

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ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon

But that doesn't make EVERY gay person part of the "gay community." They could just, you know, be gay--the tendency to be sexually attracted to your own gender doesn't automatically put you in a "community" unless you choose to be. And I understand the desire to belong, I really do. For me, though, I don't have to be a part of some "club"/"community"/"lifestyle" to feel like I belong. Just one person who shares my views and morals and respects me as I am is enough. Even before I had that, I just kept it all to myself. I don't think trying to fit in with a hugely loose group of people based on the type of relationship I wanted would have made me feel better. It would probably have just made me feel stupid for trying to identify with people who I have so little in common with. Sure, maybe that works for some people. But it's just not for me.

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ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon

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ORIGINAL: hausboy

You've made me think about something--as a dyke, I was already feeling disenfranchised and so my Gay/Lesbian Community was my world....Gay and Lesbian Civil Rights really didn't skyrocket into the spotlight until 1969's Stonewall Riots, and without any queer role models, it was very isolating.  We stuck together as a way to support each other and survive.  I didn't always like everyone, but we considered one another "family"

when THAT community pushed me away for being into leather/BDSM, the leather/BDSM community was my new refuge.

Since I do not know anything about you, RaspberryLemon, I don't want to make any assumptions about your background.  So I'm saying this in general terms--not directed specifically at you--

if you have never experienced the discrimination and hatred that many of us endured for years, then finding a place to call your own-that is, a community--among people where you felt you belonged--may not be important to you.  The leather community (and the LGBT Community) was a safe-haven.  A place both physical and conceptual, where I felt safe from the violence and hatred of the rest of the world.

Edited to add:   And yes--we DID have "secret" little clubs--we had to.  The police would regularly do busts and not always legally or with the intent to enforce the law. 

But that doesn't make EVERY gay person part of the "gay community." They could just, you know, be gay--the tendency to be sexually attracted to your own gender doesn't automatically put you in a "community" unless you choose to be. And I understand the desire to belong, I really do. For me, though, I don't have to be a part of some "club"/"community"/"lifestyle" to feel like I belong. Just one person who shares my views and morals and respects me as I am is enough. Even before I had that, I just kept it all to myself. I don't think trying to fit in with a hugely loose group of people based on the type of relationship I wanted would have made me feel better. It would probably have just made me feel stupid for trying to identify with people who I have so little in common with. Sure, maybe that works for some people. But it's just not for me.

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ORIGINAL: hausboy

That's entirely true---and there were MANY people who definitely did not want to be a part of the Gay community. They thought the parades and such were ridiculous, flaunting nonsense--and there was also a very conservative "it's better to stay in the closet" movement.

One of my dearest gay friends is now in his 80's--he has been in the closet his entire life. He went to his first gay bar with ME, when he was in his 60's!  He prefers to live his own life, quietly and discreetly.  As you said, it's a personal choice.

Here's the big difference that I found--at the time when I was seeking (and found) community, BDSM was not just about what I did in bed with other people.  It was a form of culture...it was history...it was true social networking long before the electronic age.  Very few of us felt that it was just something we do to spice things up. In fact, the only time I heard that sentiment--it was from the straight folks I'd met.  One of the many differences that fueled an unnecessary schism for a long time.

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as I take it, when many refer to people in BDSM, in all it`s various forms, they do refer themselves as being part of a community or collective of like mind people.

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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

I have something to say, from an outsider's point of view.

First to hausboy and his remarks about the LGBT community. Well they aren't really all that accepting. Bisexuals aren't really that welcome, most of the gays and lesbians seem to think they are still half in the closet and look down on them for that. And the trans folk are barely tolerated, they let them in just so they couldn't be accused of being discriminatory themselves. You wouldn't believe the grief I got when I admitted that I'd had sex with men, and that it wasn't really all that bad and that I probably would again in the future. It was like standing up in the middle of a synagogue and saying Hitler wasn't such a bad guy. They are only a community for convenience and for lobbying purposes. They did kick you out for not fitting in with their idea of what constituted an acceptable member.

Now, on to the idea of a general BDSM community. I don't see one, at least not judging from what I see here. I see it in the reactions people have when somebody says that BDSM is basically about sex. The response is "Oh, well you're only into kinky sex". ONLY. The implications of that word are enormous, yet it gets thrown around all the time. I also see it in the reactions of some of those involved in their local BDSM groups, the "I feel sorry for you" or "You're missing out on real BDSM" remarks. It's the same thing, exclusionary. Now I don't know if BDSM is about sex or more, I'll be honest, it's the sex that interests me, and I don't know what value, if any there is in being part of your local BDSM group either. But what I do know, is that when your reaction to a dissenting opinion is automatically exclusionary, you are NOT a community.

There, that's what I think as a non-kinky, non-BDSMer reading the words of the Collarchat "community".

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

there is absolutely no commonality of thought, not even a hint of it, and without that there can be no community. fuck we're arguing if we are a community or not. what the fuck does that say about the community if it can't even agree it exists?

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there is absolutely no commonality of thought, not even a hint of it, and without that there can be no community. fuck we're arguing if we are a community or not. what the fuck does that say about the community if it can't even agree it exists?

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

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LOL People do tend to insult and laugh at things they don't understand.

irony, thy name is thatmissbitch.

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there would be acceptance and a bit of tolerance.

fuck that shit, you're accepting and tolerant of ideas and people who you agree with and that's it. if you claim otherwise then you're lying. how do i know? just look around you sugar, you're none too fucking accepting of me and my ideas. if you really are accepting, then be it. me? i never claimed to be accepting and tolerant, so i don't fucking have to, but you do, you claim it as part of your way, so walk the talk babe.

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Thats Miss Bitch came from a boy calling me a bitch in a scene. I hit him again and told him That's Miss Bitch to you. It just sort of stuck. I does fit at times I can be a bitch.