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RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/22/2011 10:19:42 PM

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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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OK, but in all situations should someone be allowed to refuse services on the basis of religious beliefs? Should an ER doctor be allowed to refuse to treat a patient because the patient is gay? What if the doctor's church believed all gays should die?

This is a corporation, and I think people are right, they will be backing down. Because most corporate gay bashing is far more subtle. Target, for example, donated to an openly anti gay candidate.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to VioletGray)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/22/2011 10:19:50 PM

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That's an interesting perspective I hadn't ocnsidered, I'll grant you that. At the same time, the rights of minorities would be the same as the rights of bigots - they would have the right to do business with who they choose based on whatever criteria they wish. Fundamentally their options would be the same; from a moral perspective they would be on equal footing.

I guess where this all loses me at a practical level is, why would you want to do business with people who hated you? Certainly I would have no desire to buy clothes from someone who, without government intervention, wouldn't so much as allow me to set foot in the door. All a government regulation would do is obscure the issue, to my eye. I'd rather be denied service and thereby become aware of who my enemies are, allowing me to deprive them of their livelihood to the best of my ability than see my hard-earned money funneled to bigots because I had no way of telling they hated me.

_____________________________

They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

(in reply to VioletGray)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/22/2011 10:21:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

OK, but in all situations should someone be allowed to refuse services on the basis of religious beliefs? Should an ER doctor be allowed to refuse to treat a patient because the patient is gay? What if the doctor's church believed all gays should die?

This is a corporation, and I think people are right, they will be backing down. Because most corporate gay bashing is far more subtle. Target, for example, donated to an openly anti gay candidate.

I have yet to find any evidence that this is part of a corporation. Can you link me up?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/22/2011 10:22:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

It's simple. Roads, the fire department, defense internationally and locally in the form of the police force, are all paid for by taxes. Taxes, are paid for by everyone, in every demographic. It's not fair that the people being discriminated against still have to pay taxes that would go toward all these services that the folks down at nazi-burger still have the right to use.

They'd be denying service to people who did nothing to deserve such treatment, while still reaping the benefits of their tax dollars.

that is why taxes should be completely abolished and we move to invoices in this modern day of 2011. This is not ancient england! Oh wait it is now that I think about it.

There need be only a very few things that truly need to fall under the public eye that would be legitimate for taxation and that is not very much now days.

The rest is all piracy, like own 2 homes and pay twicw for school taxes. LOL not to mention the 2foot high list of shit you will never use that you pay taxes for like assholes standing on their shovels watering the flowers in the islands.

Like I give a rats ass about flowers in the islands. Damn sure dont want to pay taxes for it and less for the assholes standing on their shovels watering them.

Hell in my town you cannot go 3 blocks without seeing at least one or more city/county trucks. Whats wrong with this fucking picture

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(in reply to VioletGray)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/22/2011 10:23:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos

That's an interesting perspective I hadn't ocnsidered, I'll grant you that. At the same time, the rights of minorities would be the same as the rights of bigots - they would have the right to do business with who they choose based on whatever criteria they wish. Fundamentally their options would be the same; from a moral perspective they would be on equal footing.

I guess where this all loses me at a practical level is, why would you want to do business with people who hated you? Certainly I would have no desire to buy clothes from someone who, without government intervention, wouldn't so much as allow me to set foot in the door. All a government regulation would do is obscure the issue, to my eye. I'd rather be denied service and thereby become aware of who my enemies are, allowing me to deprive them of their livelihood to the best of my ability than see my hard-earned money funneled to bigots because I had no way of telling they hated me.

Makes me wonder why there isnt a sign on the door if this isnt a big deal.

And I can see Violet's point. The owner has no compulsion about utilizing services paid for many, including gay people, in order for her business to function.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Epytropos)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/22/2011 10:27:46 PM

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Sure. davidsbridal.com .
Of course, even very small businesses can be corporations, so what I really should have said was that they are a nationwide chain, like Target.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

OK, but in all situations should someone be allowed to refuse services on the basis of religious beliefs? Should an ER doctor be allowed to refuse to treat a patient because the patient is gay? What if the doctor's church believed all gays should die?

This is a corporation, and I think people are right, they will be backing down. Because most corporate gay bashing is far more subtle. Target, for example, donated to an openly anti gay candidate.

I have yet to find any evidence that this is part of a corporation. Can you link me up?

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/22/2011 10:31:14 PM

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Joined: 7/23/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Makes me wonder why there isnt a sign on the door if this isnt a big deal.

Two reasons, I would imagine. First, it's probably illegal. Second, many heteros or sex-only bis would tend to avoid a place that was openly anti-gay, all things being equal, which they might never find out otherwise.

_____________________________

They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 4:16:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Sure. davidsbridal.com .
Of course, even very small businesses can be corporations, so what I really should have said was that they are a nationwide chain, like Target.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

OK, but in all situations should someone be allowed to refuse services on the basis of religious beliefs? Should an ER doctor be allowed to refuse to treat a patient because the patient is gay? What if the doctor's church believed all gays should die?

This is a corporation, and I think people are right, they will be backing down. Because most corporate gay bashing is far more subtle. Target, for example, donated to an openly anti gay candidate.

I have yet to find any evidence that this is part of a corporation. Can you link me up?

shopping trip to "Here Comes The Bride" in Somers Point, New Jersey

Just checked the David's Bridal web site. That store... that city.. isn't listed as one of their locations.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 4:21:21 AM

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Two reasons, I would imagine. First, it's probably illegal. Second, many heteros or sex-only bis would tend to avoid a place that was openly anti-gay, all things being equal, which they might never find out otherwise.

How would it be illegal? Stupid, yes. Illegal? Its a privately owned store.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Epytropos)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 5:29:42 AM

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its not just the bridal gown... its that, the bridesmaid dresses, the flower girls... sometimes even the mother and mother-in-law dresses. These are business that make money.. and not just on the bride.

I did not know that all gets bought at the same place.

All of it is pushed at the same place. Why not buy it all in the same place. Ever hear of a bride's maid dress shop?

I figured people went to Boscovs.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 6:01:00 AM

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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Two reasons, I would imagine. First, it's probably illegal. Second, many heteros or sex-only bis would tend to avoid a place that was openly anti-gay, all things being equal, which they might never find out otherwise.

How would it be illegal? Stupid, yes. Illegal? Its a privately owned store.

New Jersey has a very broad anti discrimination law.
http://www.nj.gov/oag/dcr/accom.html

So it appears that a sign in the window saying "no gays allowed" or the equivalent would be breaking the law just as what the bridal shop owner did was.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 8:34:11 AM

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Two reasons, I would imagine. First, it's probably illegal. Second, many heteros or sex-only bis would tend to avoid a place that was openly anti-gay, all things being equal, which they might never find out otherwise.

How would it be illegal? Stupid, yes. Illegal? Its a privately owned store.

New Jersey has a very broad anti discrimination law.
http://www.nj.gov/oag/dcr/accom.html

So it appears that a sign in the window saying "no gays allowed" or the equivalent would be breaking the law just as what the bridal shop owner did was.

Back in Chicago- how they did this- to keep out people of color- in apartment rentals- is they tell every one that the apartment is already rented- but they could look at it - in case there is a cancellation. I personally seen that. When I owned a 3 unit- I never did it myself.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 10:24:59 AM

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Joined: 3/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos
I guess where this all loses me at a practical level is, why would you want to do business with people who hated you? Certainly I would have no desire to buy clothes from someone who, without government intervention, wouldn't so much as allow me to set foot in the door. All a government regulation would do is obscure the issue, to my eye. I'd rather be denied service and thereby become aware of who my enemies are, allowing me to deprive them of their livelihood to the best of my ability than see my hard-earned money funneled to bigots because I had no way of telling they hated me.

That's all well and good but what if what you want to buy is only sold in that store? Or what if you live in a small town where every store that sells that item or anything similar shares that prejudice?

(in reply to Epytropos)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 10:29:49 AM

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

New Jersey has a very broad anti discrimination law.
http://www.nj.gov/oag/dcr/accom.html

So it appears that a sign in the window saying "no gays allowed" or the equivalent would be breaking the law just as what the bridal shop owner did was.

Then I'm guessing we will hear about a suit soon.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 12:22:37 PM

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Joined: 7/23/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

That's all well and good but what if what you want to buy is only sold in that store? Or what if you live in a small town where every store that sells that item or anything similar shares that prejudice?

There are ways around that, obviously, if you absolutely HAVE to have what they sell. You could send a hetero friend, or a friend willing to pretend to be hetero, for one. It's an imperfect solution and one that people in a rational society wouldn't have to take, but it is a solution. I can't say I've ever experienced that level of desire for a product, but I suppose women are known to get quite attached to something specific when it comes to weddings. It's still not the government's place to intervene, regardless.

_____________________________

They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

(in reply to imperatrixx)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 12:26:50 PM

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Hard to get a wedding dress by sending a friend. Fittings and all that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Epytropos)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 12:35:33 PM

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Joined: 3/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos
There are ways around that, obviously, if you absolutely HAVE to have what they sell. You could send a hetero friend, or a friend willing to pretend to be hetero, for one. It's an imperfect solution and one that people in a rational society wouldn't have to take, but it is a solution. I can't say I've ever experienced that level of desire for a product, but I suppose women are known to get quite attached to something specific when it comes to weddings. It's still not the government's place to intervene, regardless.

Why do you say it's not the government's place to intervene?

(in reply to Epytropos)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 12:36:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hard to get a wedding dress by sending a friend. Fittings and all that.

This too.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 12:38:25 PM

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I am reminded of something that happened while I was serving in the Army at Fort Polk, LA in 1976. Two men from my Engineer unit went into the neighboring town of Leesville on a Saturday to the barber shop. The barber cut the white soldier's hair but refused to cut the black soldier's hair. They returned to the unit, told others what had happened, and all the men who were there went down to where we kept the construction equipment (bulldozers, etc.), loaded them up and headed into Leesville to demolish the barber shop - and the barber if he got in the way. Luckily, they were stopped by the Military Police so there was no violence. The Commanding General the following Monday put the entire town of Leesville "off-limits" and gave all the soldiers who were living in Leesville with their families 30 days to move out of town.

Within 48 hours, all the other busness owners in Leesville, realizing how much income they would lose if no soldiers or their families could enter Leesville to buy anything or pay rent on an apartment, ran the barber out of town.

Maybe a boycott of all busnesses in Somers Point would cause the other business owners to run this bigot out of town.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: You're gay? No dress for you! - 8/23/2011 1:07:15 PM

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quote:

Also, I seriously doubt you know any gay people who are fine with businesses discriminating against gays.

You can think what you want, that's your perogative.
Those I know would just shrug their shoulders, say "that's their right as a business" and go elsewhere. I can remember a few situations when I've gone places with them and they were not served because of their sexual orientation. No one made a big deal and we all went elsewhere. What's the fuss?

And this idea of doctors not serving gays or whatever..it does happen. Pharmacies that refuse to stock birth control and turn away women who with such prescriptions, doctors who refuse to accept gay clients or women looking for contraceptives. There are doctors who turn away people who don't have the same religious affiliation as themselves. They set up their own businesses and they're able to choose who to serve and who not to serve.

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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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