RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped?

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:36:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Heather, please don't try to go down that path. You're really not in a position to psychoanalyse me.
Then why are you doing it? Why are you dismissing our answers? Why do you keep saying we don't really feel the way we say we do?

I am not meaning to be confrontational in asking this, I really do want to know why you think the answers that have been given were not honest answers to the OP's question.

I haven't dismissed any answers, and I haven't accused anyone of being dishonest insofar as they've stated what they consciously feel. There isn't any need to be defensive in that way, Heather, nor to try the 'aggressive psychoanalytical technique' that you tried earlier.

When I did my own therapy, one of the things that I took on board, and has stayed with me since, is the general idea that there is (roughly) a 'reasonable' side in the mind, and an irrational and quite often unconscious side. I learned to look at the latter with the eyes of the former. It's entirely habit, now - and I'm glad that it is. It actually has helped me to see where I've had prejudices and move some way beyond them.

I think that this was the wavelength that the OP was on. I think he was asking that people dig deep for that extra bit of honesty, as it were. Like, 'Do you have these shitty feelings that you don't like about yourself?' That's the mode you get into, in therapy. You wince and say, 'Yes, and I don't like those feelings' but you go ahead and talk about them anyway, because you think it might help'. But that can't work at all if we move straight to a moral argument.

You see? I have a feeling that I recognise that wavelength in the OP of old. I could be wrong, admittedly, because he's not revisited this thread to confirm one way or another. But you have a strong feeling that you recognise a 'fellow traveller' sometimes.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/17/2011 11:42:48 AM >

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:46:38 AM

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Umm, Heather, i know you want this all perfect concept of life, but that's just not reality. If i lived with a Man for 30 years and he finally tells me this -- he won't have to worry about my leaving him for that, i'd leave his ass for not being honest with me 30 years ago. As for a Man telling me same in the beginning of a relationship, i still would be sexually turned off. I really don't get why you want to make it this big negative thing. Your use of phobia and calling people bigots is trying way to hard to make this a negative thing. Grins, trying to manipulate people by using such words is a trick that borders on desperation.

good thing i am immune, yes? But in the end, so what if i am turned off by men who are attracted to other men? I mean seriously are we really trying to determine what people should find and not find sexually attractive to themselves? Funny, Heather, isn't that an argument gays and lesbians use when other people try and tell them they shouldn't be sexually attracted to same sex people? But i guess you as a lesbian have no problem telling heterosexual women that their not being attracted to a Man who is attracted to men they are wrong in their sexual attraction -- that its based on phobia and bigotry.

Oh wait you mean my mind and body aren't being politically correct in our shove down your throat politically correct society and someone's feelings may get hurt? Easy explanation, i am not politically correct so can't be manipulated when people try and thrust that in my face.

Personally i believe your use of such words show your naivety of people in general and of sexual attraction of people and what forms it and creates it. grins, i actually told one of my best friends who is gay what you implied here and he was like WTF? BTW he has always known that same sex men for my relationships turns me off sexually and he and others are perfectly fine with it. But then again, they don't appreciate peope trying to tell them what should and should not sexually turn them on, so i guess they accept others sexual turn ons and turn offs.

angel

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:48:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

This conversation has gone in some interesting directions.

First, that the males were imprisoned is only important to the scenario b/c it means they were penned and therefore would have limited means to flee from their attacker.

It's entirely possible that I'm not seeing this part. At the same time, isn't there always something that limits the ability of the victim of a violent attack from getting away? Even if it is simple overpowering of one person over another.... We're getting awfully close to the "blame the victim" mentality.

quote:

*I* don't believe the OP meant to infer that females would find them unacceptable due to their prison time itself, but what happened to them in prison, (i.e., rape).

In this, I agree.

As for the rest, not so much. It would be like saying that I'm prejudiced against females for not being sexually attracted to them.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:55:06 AM

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quote:

How is it possible to change it? Because, if it were possible for me to flick a switch and find most women attractive rather than just a small percentage, I sure would flick that switch. But if it isn't possible beyond a certain small degree, what's the point in this argument? I mean, recasting 'reptilian-like preferences or dislikes' as 'prejudices' doesn't help much, does it?

I don't really want to get into a fight, but I think there is a difference. One, sexual orientation, is indeed hard wired and cannot be changed. I have simply never been in any way attracted to a man in a sexual, physical, or romantic manner. There just is nothing there, as far as potential sexual or romantic partners goes, they may as well be a different species.

The other, one's preferences in a partner, aren't hard wired and are able to be changed or at least overcome. My personal preference is for Indo-Pakistani women first, then black women, then Asians, then middle eastern or swarthy Mediterranean types, and then finally whites. I used to find black women more appealing than the South Asian ones, but that has changed over time. Yet, despite those preferences, here I am, very happily in love with three white women. That is because the physical attraction is only the lure, the thing that catches your attention, after that it is the person that you fall for.

When I first met Heather, I had no erotic or romantic intentions, she was just this crazy fun girl who was a blast to hang out with. Very quickly, deeper feelings developed, not based on her physical type, but based on who she is.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:05:27 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

I haven't dismissed any answers, and I haven't accused anyone of being dishonest insofar as they've stated what they consciously feel.

I'll take your word for it, but you might want to be more careful how you word things in the future.

quote:

But most people seem to be answering the question as though it were all about what they believed to be reasonable to like or dislike.

quote:

I think most if not all of us are clear about that, morally speaking. What we're *not* clear on is the matter of any lingering feelings of such antipathies, lurking down there in the depths of our unreasoning minds. The moral argument hasn't allowed space for that.

Hopefully you can see how somebody might easily read these statements, especially the first, to mean you don't think most of the people have answered the OP's question honestly.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:09:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

How is it possible to change it? Because, if it were possible for me to flick a switch and find most women attractive rather than just a small percentage, I sure would flick that switch. But if it isn't possible beyond a certain small degree, what's the point in this argument? I mean, recasting 'reptilian-like preferences or dislikes' as 'prejudices' doesn't help much, does it?
I don't really want to get into a fight, but I think there is a difference. One, sexual orientation, is indeed hard wired and cannot be changed. I have simply never been in any way attracted to a man in a sexual, physical, or romantic manner. There just is nothing there, as far as potential sexual or romantic partners goes, they may as well be a different species.

The other, one's preferences in a partner, aren't hard wired and are able to be changed or at least overcome. My personal preference is for Indo-Pakistani women first, then black women, then Asians, then middle eastern or swarthy Mediterranean types, and then finally whites. I used to find black women more appealing than the South Asian ones, but that has changed over time. Yet, despite those preferences, here I am, very happily in love with three white women. That is because the physical attraction is only the lure, the thing that catches your attention, after that it is the person that you fall for.

When I first met Heather, I had no erotic or romantic intentions, she was just this crazy fun girl who was a blast to hang out with. Very quickly, deeper feelings developed, not based on her physical type, but based on who she is.

Interesting. I don't know that it's at all easy to make a distinction between what's 'hard-wired' and what isn't. On the one hand, I overcame enough homophobia in me to be able to have as many fantasies about males (cocksucking, yes, LP - but a whole lot more) but not enough to want a partnership with a male. And not enough to feel any need for more than fantasies. And I'd still have way more trouble kissing a male than sucking his dick. Or even licking his ass.

But on the other hand, I've never, not ever, made any headway against a dislike for long, curved, sharp noses in women. Perhaps I had a terrible experience with a woman who looked like that, when I was a kid. And even though I *know* where my intense dislike of beehive hairstyles comes from (seeing the famous picture of Myra Hindley, the child-murderer, as a kid), I still can't shake it. It gives me the deep-down shivers to see any woman at all with a beehive hairstyle.

I mean, really, which of those would people normally put in the 'hard-wiring' versus 'mere prejudice' box? I think we're trying to get a handle on stuff that's sometimes startlingly impervious to reason.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:14:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

I'll take your word for it, but you might want to be more careful how you word things in the future.

Frankly, Heather, as should you. This bit of going back and forth about how "you" feel and how "we" feel is bit much. Have the courage of your own convictions, as I know you can.

quote:

Hopefully you can see how somebody might easily read these statements, especially the first, to mean you don't think most of the people have answered the OP's question honestly.

I think most people did answer honestly, even if that honesty included a knee jerk reaction.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:15:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

I haven't dismissed any answers, and I haven't accused anyone of being dishonest insofar as they've stated what they consciously feel.
I'll take your word for it, but you might want to be more careful how you word things in the future.

quote:

But most people seem to be answering the question as though it were all about what they believed to be reasonable to like or dislike.
quote:

I think most if not all of us are clear about that, morally speaking. What we're *not* clear on is the matter of any lingering feelings of such antipathies, lurking down there in the depths of our unreasoning minds. The moral argument hasn't allowed space for that.
Hopefully you can see how somebody might easily read these statements, especially the first, to mean you don't think most of the people have answered the OP's question honestly.

And you might want to be a bit less prejudiced in your reading, too, hmmm? It's great, I know, to discover the standard sorts of prejudice that are knocking around, and very satisfying to feel that one has unearthed them. But it's an easy trap to believe that you're seeing them everywhere. Being prejudiced about what one thinks are other people's prejudices - it's pretty common.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:18:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Interesting. I don't know that it's at all easy to make a distinction between what's 'hard-wired' and what isn't. On the one hand, I overcame enough homophobia in me to be able to have as many fantasies about males (cocksucking, yes, LP - but a whole lot more) but not enough to want a partnership with a male. And not enough to feel any need for more than fantasies. And I'd still have way more trouble kissing a male than sucking his dick. Or even licking his ass.

But on the other hand, I've never, not ever, made any headway against a dislike for long, curved, sharp noses in women. Perhaps I had a terrible experience with a woman who looked like that, when I was a kid. And even though I *know* where my intense dislike of beehive hairstyles comes from (seeing the famous picture of Myra Hindley, the child-murderer, as a kid), I still can't shake it. It gives me the deep-down shivers to see any woman at all with a beehive hairstyle.

I mean, really, which of those would people normally put in the 'hard-wiring' versus 'mere prejudice' box? I think we're trying to get a handle on stuff that's sometimes startlingly impervious to reason.

Oh, now you're just trying to turn Me on. Stop that right now! I'm having a serious discussion here and will play with you later.

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:23:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

As for the rest, not so much. It would be like saying that I'm prejudiced against females for not being sexually attracted to them.

Let me try and clarify my position.

As Peon said, "recasting 'reptilian-like preferences or dislikes' as 'prejudices' doesn't help much, does it? "

I agree, it doesn't help much as long as you fail to see that much of human sexual selection is in fact highly prejudicial. It has to be, as sexual selection is basically considered a criteria for reproductive success.

You know, the larger, stronger, smarter males are traditionally seen as better mating material, as are the wider hipped and bigger breasted females. Science has been studying sexual selection since Darwin, and we are learning that homosexuality is actually genetic.

If you have an extended family of many fertile females, that family will include more male homosexuals in order to even out the population structure.

Females who find bi men so unacceptable as sexual mates may be doing so for purely genetic reasons buried in their reptilian brain. It's still a prejudice, but it may very well be a prejudice based on nature, not nurture.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:23:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Oh, now you're just trying to turn Me on. Stop that right now! I'm having a serious discussion here and will play with you later.

No worries - for the moment I'll just play with myself. ;-)

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:25:08 PM

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Oh, yeah..... 'cause that helps.

Go ahead. Think of Me. I know you are.

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Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:44:25 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

Umm, Heather, i know you want this all perfect concept of life, but that's just not reality.

Actually it is the opposite. My position has nothing to do with what I want things to be, it has to do with seeing and accepting things are the way they are without needing to dress them up in order to make them more palatable to myself.

quote:

I really don't get why you want to make it this big negative thing. Your use of phobia and calling people bigots is trying way to hard to make this a negative thing. Grins, trying to manipulate people by using such words is a trick that borders on desperation.

It was others who chose those words, they denied they applied to them when they obviously do. There is no manipulation or desperation on my part, though your little game here certainly does smack of desperation.

As to the rest of your post, well you continue to completely ignore or miss my whole point. It isn't a matter of not accepting others' sexual turn ons, it is a matter of rejecting the obfuscations and rationalizations other people use to deny that their bigotry, prejudices and phobic reactions are just that.

It has nothing to do with being PC or not, it has simply to do with being honest with one's self. It also has nothing to do with any naivety on my part, just a lack of honesty on yours. You cannot admit to yourself that you do indeed hold irrational bigoted opinions and have similarly irrational phobic responses to certain aspects of sexuality.

Take me for example. I'm gay. There is no bigotry, phobia or prejudice in that, it is simply the way I am wired, which gender appeals to me. I also have an enormous aversion to penises, to the point that I won't use a dildo that is "realistic". I won't even watch porn that has such a dildo in it. I have some legitimate reasons for having those feelings, but that doesn't make them any less phobic or prejudiced, nor does alter the fact that they are a form of bigotry. I have a similar aversion to male ejaculate, I won't even open the cum saving thread in the General forum , I just don't want to know about it. Again, I have very good excuses, but it is still a phobic reaction and a form of bigotry. I am a bigoted phallophobe, I make no claims to the contrary. You are a bigoted homophobe, why do you deny it?

So, you see, it really does have nothing to do with wishful thinking, naivete, age, or any of the other weak rationales that have been put forth to dismiss my stance. It has to do with an honest appraisal of what is, rather than trying to hide what things are in order to make them more palatable. there is indeed a lack of understanding here, but it isn't on my side.

I am done discussing this with you, it really is a pointless exercise, you don't have the requisite ability to be honesty with yourself to be able to see things as they actually are. Nor the intellectual honesty to argue the point without falling into strawman and red herring fallacies. Have a nice a day.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 12:51:06 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

Being prejudiced about what one thinks are other people's prejudices - it's pretty common.

Fine. You word things badly so that they say the something other than what you say you intended them to and it is due to my prejudices that I interpret them to the way they are written.

That is one of the weakest and most infantile responses I have seen on here in a long time, but hey, believe whatever you need to to get you through the day.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 1:01:03 PM

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quote:

I mean, really, which of those would people normally put in the 'hard-wiring' versus 'mere prejudice' box? I think we're trying to get a handle on stuff that's sometimes startlingly impervious to reason.

I think it is plain to me. Hard wired is that I like women and not men, everything else is preferences, or prejudices (the word used makes no difference). The first cannot be overcome whether by circumstances, or conscious effort, or education; and the second can.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 1:12:15 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Being prejudiced about what one thinks are other people's prejudices - it's pretty common.
Fine. You word things badly so that they say the something other than what you say you intended them to and it is due to my prejudices that I interpret them to the way they are written.

That is one of the weakest and most infantile responses I have seen on here in a long time, but hey, believe whatever you need to to get you through the day.

I dunno Heather, I had no trouble understanding what Peon was trying to say and that's taking into account the differences what with his being British. I do wonder if you just really, really want to be right.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 1:13:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Being prejudiced about what one thinks are other people's prejudices - it's pretty common.
Fine. You word things badly so that they say the something other than what you say you intended them to and it is due to my prejudices that I interpret them to the way they are written.

That is one of the weakest and most infantile responses I have seen on here in a long time, but hey, believe whatever you need to to get you through the day.

What? For God's sake . . . .

Please tell me you weren't stamping up and down when you wrote that.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 1:21:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

I mean, really, which of those would people normally put in the 'hard-wiring' versus 'mere prejudice' box? I think we're trying to get a handle on stuff that's sometimes startlingly impervious to reason.
I think it is plain to me. Hard wired is that I like women and not men, everything else is preferences, or prejudices (the word used makes no difference). The first cannot be overcome whether by circumstances, or conscious effort, or education; and the second can.

But that's you, not me, though. Me, I thought I was hard-wired to get excited only by women, but that turned out not to be true. Whereas, apparently I'm hard-wired to prefer one nose-shape over another. And believe me, I'd change that if I could. Who wouldn't? Why limit your options?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/17/2011 1:26:17 PM >

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 1:58:24 PM

CynthiaWVirginia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceGuyNihilist

I found myself wondering how women--submissive women in particular--perceive men who are turned out in prison. Maybe there can be no definitive answer to this question, but I suspect it's at least safe to say that virtually no woman would ever be more attracted to a man for learning that he was, or had once been, another man's bitch. And it seems reasonable to assume that a woman who actively craves dominance in a man would, if anything, be more inclined than women in general to feel an instinctive revulsion for a man who had been forced into submission himself--and not just submission, but submission of the most degrading kind.

Is my intuition right? When the men who've been the victim of this atrocity conceal their shame from you, are they right to do so? Would any part of you think less of them if you knew? I do care what your rational, reasonable, moral mind has to say, but I'm more interested in the reptile beneath.

I have only read the OP's opening post. Saw it in the scroll when I was reading my sub's mail and new journal entry. Not fully awake yet, and still very tired from that long drive home last night, so I am not at my best right now.

Since I am a listener, I have heard many people's pain over the years and sometimes it has been from males who were raped. Sometimes in prison.

A childhood friend of mine married a man who had been raped in jail. She told me that even after years of marriage if she ever forgot herself and tried to grab his butt while they were having sex, he FREAKED OUT. She didn't think less of him, she loved him dearly and he was the father of her only child, but she had no idea how she could help heal him...they never talked about it again after that first confession. He didn't want to talk about it, but he had to let her know why even love pats...and crowding him so that part of her body brushed by his butt (like when they were in the kitchen) were off limits.

To reply to your first comment that I highlighted; no, I would not be more attracted to a man who had been raped. I have never screened men in my life by finding out if they had been raped, and when hearing "No", said "Next!" I do not find it sexually stimulating in any way if a man has been raped. On the other hand, if a man has been raped...even by a woman (and I have known several male subs who were)...it would depend on how he had processed it. Like it or not, I have always felt like a magnet to steel when it comes to another's pain, maybe because I have been there, done that, moreso than most others. (Some of us have had a lot of wrong things happen, even in early childhood.) If it made them more vulnerable and understanding, I have enjoyed this about them, that they aren't as (tries to come up with a nice word for...stupid/opinionated)...unempathic as most vanilla males seem to be. It really pushes all my bad buttons when a guy I'm dating figures it out that I have been raped in the past and gets a boner and thinks that "forcing me" sounds fun, or assumes that women like me are dangerous because when we have fights about boyfriends, we use the rape word as a weapon to destroy someone's reputation.

I do not have "an instinctive revulstion" for men who were raped, or were otherwise forced into sex to stay alive or unharmed. Sometimes it is worse for them when they have to make the choice to submit or die, rather than just being pinned down and taken. They feel that somehow it was their...choice...and that a "real man" would have chosen death. <rolls eyes>

Is my intuition right?
It depends. In general, I would advise a man to keep his mouth shut until he has tested the waters. Movies like Shawshank Redemption and that Youtube clip you mentioned would be helpful...watch those with someone and gage their reactions. I have an ugly past history of my own, and if only I had gone to movies with my first boyfriend before getting involved, I would have saved myself a lot of pain. His jokes concerning rape, like this one, would have told me all I needed to know and I would have passed him by: "How do you know if a hooker was raped? When the check bounces." He even told me that if a rapist was holding a knife to a woman's throat, the moment she traded her pussy for her life she was just a slut/whore/etc. Some people are like this, and it is good to weed them out early on.

When the men who've been the victim of this atrocity conceal their shame from you, are they right to do so?
Depends on the men you are talking about. With neighbors or acquaintences, what they choose to conceal is their own business. They would be safe to let me know, and I would likely help them process it and help them to recover; often survivors can do that for each other. With friends and lovers and my own subs, I would know that there was something seriously wrong with our relationship if they had to keep something like this hidden away from me. It is a trust issue.

Would any part of you think less of them if you knew? I do care what your rational, reasonable, moral mind has to say, but I'm more interested in the reptile beneath.
My internal reptile is something of a protector and healer. I assume you are talking about getting past the human and mammilian parts of our brain and getting down to the remaining reptilian brass tacks. I feel mine is more of a shark than reptile, and I have to keep it carefully muzzled or else I would be indiscriminate about acting on my instincts. Personally, my inner reptile/shark would like to rip to shreds, literally, every child molestor and rapist on the planet, as well as non-consensual sadists who cannot reign themselves in. Not the answer you were looking for, but this is how I am choosing to answer this.

I am a switch who can only do relationships one on one, and I prefer the Domme side. Changing gears messes up my headspace, but I will try anyway to answer your question from the angle you had intended. I have to think of a Dom I knew and respected to be able to do so.

No. If this had happened to him it would not have made him LESS. He would have turned it around so that it would have made him even more in control of me, because it would have made him understand, even more than he did already, my buttons and what makes me tick. If someone knew and understood all my dark and ugly places and accepted and loved me anyway, how could I do anything but worship him and trust him even more...?

Gawd, now I have to talk with my sub over the phone soon to get my head back on straight.

Enjoy this moment of my slipping into sub mode, it ain't likely to ever happen again on these boards.

< Message edited by CynthiaWVirginia -- 9/17/2011 2:08:21 PM >

(in reply to NiceGuyNihilist)

RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 2:08:55 PM

zephyroftheNorth

Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline

quote:

Me, I thought I was hard-wired to get excited only by women, but that turned out not to be true.

Change woman to man and the same thing happened to me. I used to think I was hardwired to be attracted to men only. Now I concede that it might be that it's simply that I haven't met the right woman, I can feel that the possibility is there.

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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(in reply to PeonForHer)

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