RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped?

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 8:47:23 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

not being sexually attracted to someone due to their sexual orientation does not equal being phobic of or bigoted against that orientation.

Not being sexually attracted to someone due to their sexual orientation is only possible if one is phobic and bigoted against that orientation.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 9:58:08 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque
This is very reminiscent of those who shun women who have been raped as immoral and unclean, in that supposes consent. Being raped is something that happens against your will. Look it up.

I think that's a fair comparison. A 'real woman' can never be a 'despoiled one'. By the same token a man can never be defeated in a fight, especially so humiliatingly so that he ends up being forcibly buggered by him, because that's one of the worst defeats of all. The one attitude is as crap and archaic as the other. I think most if not all of us are clear about that, morally speaking. What we're *not* clear on is the matter of any lingering feelings of such antipathies, lurking down there in the depths of our unreasoning minds. The moral argument hasn't allowed space for that.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:00:23 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

not being sexually attracted to someone due to their sexual orientation does not equal being phobic of or bigoted against that orientation.
Not being sexually attracted to someone due to their sexual orientation is only possible if one is phobic and bigoted against that orientation.

Would you say the same of a woman you'd found attractive in all ways to start with, but then later discovered to be a paedophile, as a matter of interest?

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:17:49 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

Would you say the same of a woman you'd found attractive in all ways to start with, but then later discovered to be a paedophile, as a matter of interest?

Yes.

I do not consider a person to be able to control what appeals to them sexually, so I wouldn't dismiss somebody on that basis.

Now if she had acted on that inclination then I would have a moral objection and therefore would have a reason to reject her as a potential partner. But that objection would be based on the actions and not the sexual attraction itself.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:19:11 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
If you would reject a woman simply based on her being Inuit, then you are a bigot. On the other hand, if what you mean is that it's not that you would never consider an Inuit woman, it's just that you have yet to meet or see one you consider physically attractive, then you aren't a bigot. See the difference?

Yes, but in practice it could be slim to non-existent. If all Inuit women shared the same physical characteristics, and those characteristics happen to be ones that don't 'do it for me', then it'd be safe to say, 'I'd never consider an Inuit woman as a partner'. Just as midget men (shall we say 'pygmy males' - that sounds better) don't 'do it' for LafayetteLady. Their height, or lack thereof, would presumably get in the way of getting the right hormones moving for her.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:22:58 AM

barelynangel

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I don't control what i am attracted to sexually but things can turn me off whether it be finding out someone is shorter than me to some guy with red hair or in the end, finding out a man has had sex with other men. Many of my best friends are gay, so the concept of by being phobic or bigotted is ridiculous.

My mind controls my sexual attraction because the brain can tell me whether or not i am turned on by something or something can actually turn me off.

I don't want a man who has had sex with other men or who are sexually attracted to other men. Just not something i am attracted too, and finding out this has occured will lead me being turned off.

You cannot dismiss the brain and preferences when understanding sexual attraction, there is a natural reaction -- however, since we are people -- we also have the other concept wherein preferences can make or break a natural reaction and supercede it.

Doesn't mean its based on fear or bigotry -- sometimes things simply do come down to what turns you on mentally and what doesn't. It's why we don't fuck anyone and everyone we find our bodies reacting too sexually. Doesn't mean its based on fear and bigotry.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:23:46 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Would you say the same of a woman you'd found attractive in all ways to start with, but then later discovered to be a paedophile, as a matter of interest?
Yes.

I do not consider a person to be able to control what appeals to them sexually, so I wouldn't dismiss somebody on that basis.

If you don't consider a person to be able to control what appeals them sexually - and, presumably - what *doesn't* appeal to them sexually - why the argument with LL and others, then? They claim not to find bisexual males appealing - why don't you just leave it at that?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/17/2011 10:24:34 AM >

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:38:07 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

What we're *not* clear on is the matter of any lingering feelings of such antipathies, lurking down there in the depths of our unreasoning minds.

You may not be clear on it, but I am. Well as far as it is possible to be, never having knowingly met a man who has been raped. I refer you to the following parts of my first post on this thread.

quote:

I am terribly attracted <serious understatement> to Hanners, who has been raped three times. Part of that attraction is based on the attitude she with which she regards those events. I suspect that if I were into men, I would be rather attracted to a man who was strong enough to overcome what is a very traumatic ordeal and not let it run his life.

quote:

My reptile worries more about strength of character and wisdom in the face of danger than it worries about empty-headed machismo-based ideas that judge people based on the occurrence of events in their lives over which they have no control.

This is the second time you have claimed that *we* aren't actually answering the question asked. I think this is because you find that you agree with the OP's premise deep down and it really bothers you that you do. So you are wanting others to agree with him as well, in order to assuage your own feelings of shame at the association your subconscious makes.

Sorry, I can't help you with that, I answered the question to the best of my ability and after some further soul searching my answer remains the same. The fact of the rape would have no bearing whatsoever on how I viewed a person, and depending on how the person deals with the rape, I might be even more attracted to the person.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:47:30 AM

barelynangel

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As far as the OP, my answer is simple and yet complex -- having never been in such a situation, i would guess i probably would not be able to submit to a Man who was raped. Could i be in a relationship with him -- i don't know. I think that would depend on the man.

Good, bad, or ugly. sometimes life and relationships are difficult which is why everyone doesn't get together with everyone else but there are specifics people gravitate for, some people could not submit to a Man who was involved in PTSD or depression etc etc. I don't think this makes people good or bad, whether they can or can't submit or be in a relationship -- i simply think it makes them human.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:53:25 AM

strongbottom88

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

I think the questions beneath your post concern
perceptions of masculinity and what could diminish a
man in a womans eyes? You would like to ask women
in general and submissive women in particular because
you think we have the harshest and most rigid view of
what a 'real man' is?

That's how I read the OP, too. I also read him as - quite carefully, in fact - distinguishing between a) what women *reasonably* deem to be 'unmanly' and b) what their more instinctual feelings - feelings that they might not actually like about themselves - say to them. (Or call them 'prejudices', if that suits.) But most people seem to be answering the question as though it were all about what they believed to be reasonable to like or dislike. In which case, the answers seem to me to be pretty easy and obvious.

Hmm. I do wish the OP would haul his arse back in here to enlighten us, though.

I read it the same way. In this context it is not a completely irrelevant question, although in taking on this kind of subject it is difficult not to come off as ignorant or insensitive. I am not that inclined to compare it to a dominant man acting as a bottom as I think that is entirely different because it is consensual.

As has been raised in numerous other threads I have read on these boards, in addition to being dominant, submissive, switch, etc, we are also men and women and I think there are probably at least some women who base at least some of their attraction (vanilla or bdsm) to men on their perception that they are protectors. I am not a woman, but I believe this is partly a matter of women being socialized to feel weak and vulnerable and to see men as their protectors. It is also somewhat practical as women are more subject to being targets of sexual assault or violent crime, and on average (I recognize this is far from absolute) they are more physically vulnerable and have less capacity to physically protect. It is possible that when a man has been a victim of rape that some women can't help but see the man in a more vulnerable light and less capable as a protector.

To illustrate, I am close friends with a woman who is a survivor of both rape and sexual abuse. She has PTSD. Several years ago we used to hang out regularly (she has since moved out of the area) and there was a mutual attraction. It never evolved into anything romantic, in large part because in talking with her it was clear she could not engage in any type of bdsm and I had reached a point in my life where I knew bdsm had to be a significant part of any serious sustained relationship for me. She used to tell me regularly that part of the reason she was attracted to me was that I made her feel physically safe. She told me she believed that if we were ever in a violent physical situation that I could kill someone to protect her if necessary. This may or may not be true, but the thing is she needed to see me that way. Because I could ultimately tell she was disappointed that our relationship was not evolving, I told her about my love of bdsm and that I have been a bottom and physically vulnerable in many scenes. She confirmed bot that she could not emotiaonlly engage in bdsm and that this did not effect her perception of me as a protector. I can't help but feel that if I experienced something that exposed what I already know (that i am not physically invulnerable) that this would not have been a bigger surprise to her and had a bigger impact on the way she perceived me.

Of course the logic is flawed and irrational. Everyone with real life experience who is thinking rationally understands that no person is exempt from physical invulnerability including rape. No man has the capacity to be even remotely close to an absolute "protector." It is also very clear that being raped does not make someone "undominate". Dominance and submission in a bdsm context are completely unrelated to non-consensual acts. At the same time, it is not completely irrelevant to ask women if this has an impact on their attraction to a man given how women are socialized and given the fact, that on average they are the more physically vulnerable sex and in most societies they are subject to more violent crime and may desire to feel "protected." Again, the probelm is that it is almost impossible to ask this type of question without coming off as insensitive and offensive given peoples real life dramatic experiences with rape)

As a sub male I can look at this in reverse. I am attracted to emotionally strong women. In a bdsm relationship I desire moments of feeling emotionally protected and cared for. I am even very drawn to scenes where I willingly am put into a physically vulnerable position in part because it reinforces a bond of trust where I can see the dominant as emotionally protective of me when I'm most vulnerable. In contrast, despite being a feminist, outside of that type of scene, I have never been in an adult relationship where I saw the woman as the primary physical protector in the relationship. Sub or not, I have always seen myself as the primary physical protector in the relationship if we are ever subject to a serious threat of violence. I am a man who has been socialized this way, and as a practical matter I have always been the one more physically equipped to "protect" in my relationships - at least to date. I can only imagine the effect that being raped would have on that part of my identity - inlcuding the ability to feel attractive to women. I am unhappy with myself feeling that way and realize it is ignorant and irrational, but that does not make it not so.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:54:46 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

If you don't consider a person to be able to control what appeals them sexually - and, presumably - what *doesn't* appeal to them sexually - why the argument with LL and others, then? They claim not to find bisexual males appealing - why don't you just leave it at that?

I'm not arguing with anybody but you. DesFIP, the first person to raise the issue, stated that it wasn't homophobic, and then went on to explain her reasoning which showed that it clearly was. I replied to point that out. Then LL replied to me with a long winded rambling rant accusing me of non-existent bigotry and ignorance based on my sexual orientation, that was nothing but an example of her own bigotry and ignorance. So I replied to that. The other lady made a similar assertion in reply to me, so I replied to her point. I wouldn't be discussing the whole idea still, except that you <and now I see Barelyanangel has decided to chime in as well> you keep posting to dispute my assertion and try to trick me into some logical trap. If you really don't want to discuss this point, stop posting to try poke holes in my position. Duh.

quote:

Yes, but in practice it could be slim to non-existent. If all Inuit women shared the same physical characteristics, and those characteristics happen to be ones that don't 'do it for me', then it'd be safe to say, 'I'd never consider an Inuit woman as a partner'. Just as midget men (shall we say 'pygmy males' - that sounds better) don't 'do it' for LafayetteLady. Their height, or lack thereof, would presumably get in the way of getting the right hormones moving for her.

You are being deliberately obtuse and ignoring the point I made.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 10:58:08 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Yes.

I do not consider a person to be able to control what appeals to them sexually, so I wouldn't dismiss somebody on that basis.

Now if she had acted on that inclination then I would have a moral objection and therefore would have a reason to reject her as a potential partner. But that objection would be based on the actions and not the sexual attraction itself.

This is the key. You are now talking about choice. Not something that happens against someone's will. I can fully support any person having preferences for or against any descriptors out there that make up a person. Even to go so far as to say that I completely get it that some women might not be attracted to someone who is bisexual and who has voluntarily been sexually active with other men.

To Me, that is entirely different than what the OP has asked here. Instead, the premise is regarding a situation where choice has been removed. It honestly doesn't matter to Me that the OP's scenario included prison or if we are talking about an attack that would have happened to someone because they were walking down a particular street. In My eyes, it's pretty flipping cold to think of someone as less based on something that happened to them against their will.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:02:31 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
This is the second time you have claimed that *we* aren't actually answering the question asked. I think this is because you find that you agree with the OP's premise deep down and it really bothers you that you do. So you are wanting others to agree with him as well, in order to assuage your own feelings of shame at the association your subconscious makes.

Sorry, I can't help you with that, I answered the question to the best of my ability and after some further soul searching my answer remains the same. The fact of the rape would have no bearing whatsoever on how I viewed a person, and depending on how the person deals with the rape, I might be even more attracted to the person.

Heather, please don't try to go down that path. You're really not in a position to psychoanalyse me. On the other hand, the therapist I saw in my early twenties *was* in a position to do that. He was in that position a) because he was a very highly qualified and experienced therapist and b) because he'd spoken with me, one to one, for over four years. And, like any good therapist, he absolutely stuck to the principle that he was not going to judge anything that came up in moral terms. Nothing of what you're implying came up then.

Secondly, as I've said repeatedly on these forums, I myself am bisexual. And thirdly, I know men who've been forcibly buggered, and did a fair bit over a few years to help one of them. I have a bit of knowledge, at least, of the sorts of things that do actually come up, after that experience.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:07:06 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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This conversation has gone in some interesting directions.

First, that the males were imprisoned is only important to the scenario b/c it means they were penned and therefore would have limited means to flee from their attacker.

*I* don't believe the OP meant to infer that females would find them unacceptable due to their prison time itself, but what happened to them in prison, (i.e., rape).

Second, if you are not attracted to a certain group b/c of looks, then actually it is prejudice. I, for instance, am not attracted to Middle Eastern males. For some reason they just squeak me out. I have no idea why, but I am aware this means that despite my intentions of being open minded and non-prejudicial towards all, my reptile brain (I love that term) says: No!

That's what prejudice IS.

"an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason."

Since I cannot possibly know all Middle Eastern Males (anymore than Peon can know all Inuit females), my not being attracted is prejudice, in MY opinion.

We all have such a knee jerk reaction to thinking "all prejudice is wrong and must be eradicated" that we often don't see it. BTW, please do not misunderstand me, I am not saying prejudice is correct, I am saying it can't be entirely eradicated, b/c our reptile brain wants or in this case doesn't want what it doesn't want.

Sexually I do not like skinny men. I prefer a larger man with good musculature and some real meat on his bones. I am in fact prejudiced against thin men. I understand it is not PC to say so, but in my mind, that's the truth.

Now, how much of our reptile brain comes from nature or nurture is perhaps fodder for another interesting thread.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:07:33 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

I don't want a man who has had sex with other men or who are sexually attracted to other men.

As I have shown, despite you not wanting to admit it, if you would categorically dismiss a person on the basis of what they are sexually attracted to, then it is indeed a form of bigotry.

You could be totally attracted to a man and live your whole life in blissful happiness with him and then suddenly, after 30 years you would find him unattractive and unworthy of being with you simply because he admitted he'd like to bugger Johnny Depp? Sorry, that isn't based on the the way you are wired like one's sexual orientation or physical preferences, it is based on your prejudicial ideas of what is and isn't a "real man", so it is an entirely subjective measure over which you do indeed have control. Complete control, actually.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:08:07 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
you keep posting to dispute my assertion and try to trick me into some logical trap. If you really don't want to discuss this point, stop posting to try poke holes in my position. Duh. [/color]

No, I'm posting at least partly because your argument has holes in it, and you're not seeing them.

quote:

You are being deliberately obtuse and ignoring the point I made.[/color]

No, I'm showing you that the point you were making there was wrong.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:12:36 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

Heather, please don't try to go down that path. You're really not in a position to psychoanalyse me.

Then why are you doing it? Why are you dismissing our answers? Why do you keep saying we don't really feel the way we say we do?

I am not meaning to be confrontational in asking this, I really do want to know why you think the answers that have been given were not honest answers to the OP's question.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:19:07 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

No, I'm posting at least partly because your argument has holes in it, and you're not seeing them.

Except that none of the holes you have pointed out actually exist. They are all based on comparing one thing with another unrelated thing.

quote:

No, I'm showing you that the point you were making there was wrong.

No you weren't, because your post didn't address the point I made.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:20:34 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

This conversation has gone in some interesting directions.

First, that the males were imprisoned is only important to the scenario b/c it means they were penned and therefore would have limited means to flee from their attacker.

*I* don't believe the OP meant to infer that females would find them unacceptable due to their prison time itself, but what happened to them in prison, (i.e., rape).

Second, if you are not attracted to a certain group b/c of looks, then actually it is prejudice. I, for instance, am not attracted to Middle Eastern males. For some reason they just squeak me out. I have no idea why, but I am aware this means that despite my intentions of being open minded and non-prejudicial towards all, my reptile brain (I love that term) says: No!

That's what prejudice IS.

I am not saying prejudice is correct, I am saying it can't be entirely eradicated, b/c our reptile brain wants or in this case doesn't want what it doesn't want.

Sexually I do not like skinny men. I prefer a larger man with good musculature and some real meat on his bones. I am in fact prejudiced against thin men. I understand it is not PC to say so, but in my mind, that's the truth.

Now, how much of our reptile brain comes from nature or nurture is perhaps fodder for another interesting thread.

See, this for me gets to the root of my own biggest concern, which is entirely selfish. Prejudice or 'hard-wiring', or 'orientation' (to the opposite sex, the same sex, tall people, short people, people with dimples on their chins, whatever) - I don't much care which word we use - How is it possible to change it? Because, if it were possible for me to flick a switch and find most women attractive rather than just a small percentage, I sure would flick that switch. But if it isn't possible beyond a certain small degree, what's the point in this argument? I mean, recasting 'reptilian-like preferences or dislikes' as 'prejudices' doesn't help much, does it?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/17/2011 11:21:20 AM >

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/17/2011 11:25:34 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

First, that the males were imprisoned is only important to the scenario b/c it means they were penned and therefore would have limited means to flee from their attacker.

*I* don't believe the OP meant to infer that females would find them unacceptable due to their prison time itself, but what happened to them in prison, (i.e., rape).

No, it's also important because if he was in prison for beating up a woman and/or raping her or other violent crimes, I definitely don't want a relationship with him.

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