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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 5:23:05 AM

GotSteel

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Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 5:30:10 AM

Moonhead

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She just said that she doesn't, old boy.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 5:37:53 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

No.
Check please post #321. It simply does not qualify.
Best regards.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 5:55:35 AM

AeonLux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

No. Just like I don't think asserting to the nonexistence of aliens, leprechauns, trolls, Loch Ness Monster, unicorns, and other fanciful or fantastical claims/characters makes for a "religion." Does saying "Thor doesn't exist" really qualify as a religious belief? I think not. Replace Thor with any other mythical, mythological or metaphysical claim. It's not a religious conviction.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 6:23:34 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
She just said that she doesn't, old boy.

I read her opinion on weak atheism, the only thing I saw about strong atheism was a comment on "how greatly they differ" so I was curious about just how greatly she thought they differed.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 6:27:42 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
She just said that she doesn't, old boy.

I read her opinion on weak atheism, the only thing I saw about strong atheism was a comment on "how greatly they differ" so I was curious about just how greatly she thought they differed.

They differ, as collecting butterflies differs from cooking a cake. But nor of both activities, nor of both kinds of Atheism, are religions. Religion is a very specific kind of thing. "not being religion" is something in common of almost everything.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 6:32:12 AM

GotSteel

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Yeah, calling the rejection of gods a religion seems pretty ridiculous to me as well.

P.S. Now I'm looking forward to informing the next christian who tries that line on me that athorism is their religion.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 7:46:28 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

No.
Check please post #321. It simply does not qualify.
Best regards.

yes and also post #322 the full rebuttal that demolishes his version AND just happens to agree with the supreme court.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 7:55:01 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AeonLux

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

No. Just like I don't think asserting to the nonexistence of aliens, leprechauns, trolls, Loch Ness Monster, unicorns, and other fanciful or fantastical claims/characters makes for a "religion." Does saying "Thor doesn't exist" really qualify as a religious belief? I think not. Replace Thor with any other mythical, mythological or metaphysical claim. It's not a religious conviction.

So if you bake a cake then a white cake must be a weak cake and a chocolate cake is a strong cake.

No thats not the way it works, that is seriously flawed logic.

They are both cakes. One is not more or less a cake than the other.

It seems people are not grasping the "process", which is what belief and religion is.

Its really not difficult.

I explained it better but this is good also.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 8:02:32 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
No thats not the way it works, that is seriously flawed logic.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 8:06:40 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Yeah, calling the rejection of gods a religion seems pretty ridiculous to me as well.

P.S. Now I'm looking forward to informing the next christian who tries that line on me that athorism is their religion.

like the cake example, its is still your belief and the only argument I see you winning on that is if the christian is not aware of each step of the process.

If you believe and accept that God does not exist by any construction or variant and use that as a set or subset to govern your life as I stated, that is your religion.

There is simply no getting around it that I can find, and the proof is that no one has been able to present anything aside from word manipulations and incorrect comparisons amounting to 4*4=16 but (-4)*(-4) != 16, which is course we all know is simply not true.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 8:10:47 AM

Moonhead

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Christ, watching Real0ne trying to chop logic is like watching Abu Hamza trying to play the guitar...

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 8:11:24 AM

Real0ne

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yes you did get it, on that we agree.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 8:14:48 AM

Moonhead

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Close, but no cigar: I said that your argument was based on an initial premise that was shit, not on you eating the stuff.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 8:19:59 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

the problem with that position is that strong or weak is not part of the required criteria to determine of it is a religion.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 10:25:04 AM

AeonLux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: AeonLux

No. Just like I don't think asserting to the nonexistence of aliens, leprechauns, trolls, Loch Ness Monster, unicorns, and other fanciful or fantastical claims/characters makes for a "religion." Does saying "Thor doesn't exist" really qualify as a religious belief? I think not. Replace Thor with any other mythical, mythological or metaphysical claim. It's not a religious conviction.

So if you bake a cake then a white cake must be a weak cake and a chocolate cake is a strong cake.

No thats not the way it works, that is seriously flawed logic.

They are both cakes. One is not more or less a cake than the other.

It seems people are not grasping the "process", which is what belief and religion is.

Its really not difficult.

I explained it better but this is good also.

Are you being facetious? You're not serious, right?

Perhaps I should have gone more in depth on weak/negative atheism and strong/positive atheism as well as implicit and explicit atheism and how each position is defined.

Weak/negative: "I am without belief in gods." or "I am godless." This is the default position, based on the etymological definition.

Strong/positive: "Deities don't exist." This is a nonexistence claim -- positive/explicit atheism. Negative/explicit atheism is where one doesn't believe, is godless, but doesn't assert to the nonexistence of deities.

These terms describe the different classifications/categories or positions within nontheism, for which there are many others. There's also agnosticism and its various forms and ignosticism/theological noncognitivism. I mustn't forget relative metaphysical atheism.

Currently, my children are weak/implicit atheists as they've yet to be exposed to First Cause concepts and metaphysical truth claims. Implicit because their "rejection" is based on lack of exposure. They've not had a chance to accept or reject a formal claim or proposal for any deity. When that happens their position will change as it will become a conscious choice.

Makes perfect sense.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 10:30:50 AM

AeonLux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

the problem with that position is that strong or weak is not part of the required criteria to determine of it is a religion.

So, not collecting perfume, model Corvettes, stamps, Buffy gear, etc., constitutes a "hobby"? How is not believing in the Roman, Greek, Canaanite (ahem, classical theism), Celtic, Norse, Egyptian, etc., deities a "religion." I mean, I don't believe in Zeus. I'm not inclined to believe such a character exists. Does that really qualify as a religious conviction or belief? What sort of dogma, ritual, practice, customs, and so forth are attached to my lack of belief in Zeus? I'm rather curious to know.

< Message edited by AeonLux -- 10/28/2011 10:32:23 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 5:39:34 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AeonLux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Would you consider strong atheism to be a religion?

the problem with that position is that strong or weak is not part of the required criteria to determine of it is a religion.

So, not collecting perfume, model Corvettes, stamps, Buffy gear, etc., constitutes a "hobby"? How is not believing in the Roman, Greek, Canaanite (ahem, classical theism), Celtic, Norse, Egyptian, etc., deities a "religion." I mean, I don't believe in Zeus. I'm not inclined to believe such a character exists. Does that really qualify as a religious conviction or belief? What sort of dogma, ritual, practice, customs, and so forth are attached to my lack of belief in Zeus? I'm rather curious to know.

Well again, "To Believe" has nothing to do with collecting, perfume or otherwise.

"To Believe" is an action and specific requirement of integrating the philosophy and results of ones choices into a "set of Beliefs" which is used to govern the self and that makes up ones "religion" as the other guy said. (see the blue underlining)

See, "To collect" is not part of any process resulting in religion et al.

Now you used the example of not knowing, then you go down to not believing at which point you made a determination. No determination is still Godless, and an atheist however and whatever set of constructs you use to govern yourself is your religion.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/28/2011 5:40:30 PM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 5:44:26 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AeonLux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: AeonLux

No. Just like I don't think asserting to the nonexistence of aliens, leprechauns, trolls, Loch Ness Monster, unicorns, and other fanciful or fantastical claims/characters makes for a "religion." Does saying "Thor doesn't exist" really qualify as a religious belief? I think not. Replace Thor with any other mythical, mythological or metaphysical claim. It's not a religious conviction.

So if you bake a cake then a white cake must be a weak cake and a chocolate cake is a strong cake.

No thats not the way it works, that is seriously flawed logic.

They are both cakes. One is not more or less a cake than the other.

It seems people are not grasping the "process", which is what belief and religion is.

Its really not difficult.

I explained it better but this is good also.

Are you being facetious? You're not serious, right?

Perhaps I should have gone more in depth on weak/negative atheism and strong/positive atheism as well as implicit and explicit atheism and how each position is defined.

Weak/negative: "I am without belief in gods." or "I am godless." This is the default position, based on the etymological definition.

Strong/positive: "Deities don't exist." This is a nonexistence claim -- positive/explicit atheism. Negative/explicit atheism is where one doesn't believe, is godless, but doesn't assert to the nonexistence of deities.

These terms describe the different classifications/categories or positions within nontheism, for which there are many others. There's also agnosticism and its various forms and ignosticism/theological noncognitivism. I mustn't forget relative metaphysical atheism.

Currently, my children are weak/implicit atheists as they've yet to be exposed to First Cause concepts and metaphysical truth claims. Implicit because their "rejection" is based on lack of exposure. They've not had a chance to accept or reject a formal claim or proposal for any deity. When that happens their position will change as it will become a conscious choice.

Makes perfect sense.

I am not so sure that is the case.

godless is also a variant to atheist.

Your kids if having no exposure made no conscious determination for themselves, so as I said over 30 pages ago, people falling into that category would be an atheist as they are Godless, which is not the same as religion less.

IN as much as the strong weak thang it can only be legitimately used to quantify, not qualify.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 8:31:01 PM

CrazyCats

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I'm bored enough to wade in and give my two cents.

From a legal perspective, I can understand the ruling. If "Atheism" is not a "religion" then it is not protected under the first amendment. If it is not a religion, then laws can be made prohibiting "Atheism." This is more of a legal definition than an academic definition. The definition applied by the courts is the fastest way to grant immediate protection and equality to a group of people that do not practice any religion.

From an academic perspective... the term "atheism" is a very tangled one. The definitions of atheism and agnosticism that I have used for most of my life are explained here: I'm being lazy and not typing!

I can understand using "irreligious" as the top level term for the whole gamut of atheism and agnosticism, but I'll disagree simply because my definition of "irreligious" is "not holding to the tenets or creeds of any religion." A deist, or one who believes there is a god, can be irreligious by simply being just a deist and not ascribing a religious dogma to the faith in a god. It is equally possible that an atheist can choose to practice a religion's tenets or follow a religion's creed, though most do not. The easiest creed to follow as an atheist would be Buddhism, since Buddhism does not have a god figure to worship.

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