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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 5:50:31 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		I have a question for you Awareness. Why is it that any male who disagrees with you is just trying to be popular? Isn't it possible that they just actually do disagree with you?

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 5:51:59 PM   
hausboy


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Joined: 9/5/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

It was the women's attitude I was talking about. 8% of the women thought TS people are freaks, but 14% wouldn't befriend them. The relevant numbers for the men are 14% and 15%, so not what I would consider a significant difference. I'm wondering if it isn't some sort of resentment of them because they are "fake" women, a sort of dislike of them as impostors competing for the same men.

what might be even more interesting...
break it down by category....
Crossdressers.....FTM....MTF....Intersexed....Third Gender/Androgynous...etc. 

I actually understand some of that resentment.  I don't know if it's "Imposters" competing, but I think some women may object to their concept of what makes a woman.

There's a local group that meets--I go occasionally-- and many of the newer MTFs will come in wearing clothing that is TOTALLY inappropriate....ranging from 14-yo teeny bopper to...."working" gal.  Many of those in the group will take her aside and try to explain to her, in a gentle way, that well....".honey, you're 50.  Dress like a 50 year old woman, not a hooker or a teenager."   I think some dress and act in an overly feminine/exaggerated way to overcompensate.  Those in the group who happily live female try to show them that with less makeup, better styling, and more contemporary fashion appropriate to their age....they will get a much better "reception"  Some of their concepts of femininity, I swear, come right out of the mainstream media.

For the FTMs, we get some of this too.  Every now and then, a guy comes to the group and he acts like a total pig....and we tell him: you're welcome to hang out with us, play poker, smoke cigars, watch football....but leave the "women are all ho's and bitches" crap at the door.'
I know that on the guys hormone end of things, we go through a second puberty, and so it's not unusual to see new guys basically dressing and acting like teenage boys. (yes it's really, really annoying to everyone else too) Part of it comes from feeling like a teenage boy...and part of it is reclaiming that lost boyhood that so many of us didn't get to have.  It typically wears off after about 6 months or so, but many of us mentor new guys, help them with haircuts, clothes and within my social group of FTMs, we usually tell all the guys new on hormones: "don't do anything impulsive or stupid....call one of us first and run the idea by us...."   

I kid you not, that was great advice.  During my first 6 months, I suddenly had this insane desire to get a BMX bike.  I called one of the guys who was mentoring me, and he talked me out of it, reminding me of how a 30 year old's bones don't heal as quickly as a teenagers...and my (ex) wife was the one that put a stop to the backwards baseball caps.  When I returned the favor and mentored a new guy, I gave him the same advice.

he called me one night and said :"Hey, I'm having two urges.... I want to sleep with this woman because she's flirting with me (he's married)...and I want to get a skateboard."
I told him "You'll regret both of those decisions.  If you get the urge to cheat..... fuck your spouse instead...or wank off more.  As for the skateboard....do you see a lot of other 48 year old men on skateboards?"  He thanked me later.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:09:42 PM   
xssve


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Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

As for the post you quoted, the first part is addressing that there should be work done to prevent the urgency of surgery from ever taking place. To correct their flawed thinking (because if you're born one sex but think you're the other, that is incorrect. You may not like the words I'm using but it is what it is) would be a greater cure than to think that we can just change what people believe and is not seen as correct.
Uh, no, that's where you're wrong - the brain and the genitalia are two different organs, what is the "correct" way for a biologically intersexed person to think?

You act the way you feel, if you have a dick, but your brain tells you you're a woman, should you listen to your brain or or your dick?

Wait, I think we already know how you will answer that question.

For anybody else, it's not so damn clear, we all start out as the same sex: there are feminine men, masculine women, always have been, always will be, and then there are people who cannot mind their own fucking business, and of the lot, the latter are the only ones that are continually causing me grief with their endless shit stirring and puerile insistence that they alone are the arbiters of what is and is not natural - if it isn't natural, you don't find it in nature, if it's there, it's natural, get over it.

I think all plastic surgery is bogus, but it's free fucking country, and I'm not your mother, I got much better things to do than hassle people about their goddamn genitalia, it's not my problem, and anybody who thinks it ought to be can take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.

I mean who sits around and get all worked up about the genitalia of complete strangers anyway?

That's really fucking weird, get a life. Soon.



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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:13:59 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
You joined the group, lad.  Adopted a bunch of opinions, picked up a rock and threw it, simply because everyone else was doing it.


I've got to say, that was a classy line. If I were writing a screenplay, I'd definitely have one of my characters say it. That character could be anyone in a minority against a hostile majority, anywhere. And, yes, given this thread's topic, I'm fully aware of the irony.

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Profile   Post #: 384
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:22:07 PM   
hausboy


Posts: 2360
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline 		Hi xssve...
I don't think all plastic surgery is bogus....
Chest surgery for FTMs is really necessary for a variety of reasons for many guys.

I definitely did NOT want to have chest surgery.  It was complex, painful and was going to cost me (all costs considered) close to $10K.  For the first 2 years, I managed to go without.  It meant I had to give up swimming/beach....had to change at home before/after the gym (which got old quick), and I had to give up massages, PT (unless I was going to come out to the Physical therapist, which I didn't want to do over a shoulder issue) and then there's the whole issue of binding.  The summers were horrid, having to wear 2 or 3 shirts--binders are murder.  it became very problematic.

Post chest surgery?  What a difference.  I'm back swimming, back at the gym, massage therapist, rolfer, PT...all good.  I can simply change without a moment of worry, and there's something absolutely fantastic about going out to my truck after a day of hiking, and just changing my tee shirt in the parking lot.   It wasn't medically necessary for me to get the surgery--I wasn't large so I didn't have back pain and didn't have the "please get these things off me or else" that most of my friends did-- but for me, it was simply a quality of life.

I paid out of pocket for that quality of life, and it was worth every penny.  One of my bio-male buddies is very overweight--he won't take his shirt of in public because he's embarrassed by his "man-boobs."  He understood my need to have surgery better than my (ex) wife did!

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:33:32 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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quote:

I was semi with you until the "Stay classy" bit. You said a couple of really nasty things - you essentially said that TG is a mental illness, and you implied that homosexuality was too, and you casually said that you'd call a TG by their biological sex "because that's the way I roll"


I said that TG is a mental abnormality.  It deviates from the standard, from the norm, from whatever you wish to call it.  The way of identifying as a different gender when you are biologically another is definitely different way of thinking from most other people in the world. 

As for myself calling them by their biological sex that is what they began as, that is what I see them as.  That is me being honest with them.  That is why we'd not make good friends.

quote:

You're not qualified to state whether a majority of TG people are happier or not post transition and neither am I. DS is a fuck of a lot better qualified than either you or I, and the TG peeps that have contributed to the thread have shared real personal experiences so that kinda kicks your views, and mine, properly in the arse.


It's a social issue they face most of all and as an observer that functions outside the computer and has personally seen the humiliation they endure (and again, provided links to that contain quotes from other TG people) makes me qualified to comment.  You seem to be thinking that because somebody here has a few TG friends that somehow makes their opinion more valued than my own.  You seem to be thinking that a few of those TGs on here that have contributed speak their positive experiences for all of them and that somehow invalidates the real situation that somewhere out there is a TG being beaten and abused because somebody does not agree with their decision so much they are provoked to violence or extreme verbal abuse.

quote:

One thing we do know, is that ignorance is one of the key factors in prejudice... so perhaps if you and I were to shut the fuck up and let the TG people tell their stories we'd both learn something - about the issues surrounding Transgenderism and maybe even ourselves?


And if we "shut the fuck up" then they tell their feel-good stories, we all get a sensational feeling over us, then I put on my longcoat and go out to get a drink from the store only to see a TG person being openly ridiculed by people on the street and called a "freak" or "weirdo." 

The only thing I have learned from this topic is that many people here prefer to live in a bubble when it comes to these issues.  Now I'll ask if you're implying, but I do hope you're not so dense to see that just because I do not adhere to transsexuals means I am suddenly prejudice against them. 


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:53:50 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		That is really interesting hausboy, I had no idea that there was that 2nd adolescence phase. And that it extends to wanting to get a skateboard and things too. That is really fascinating.

< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 11/19/2011 6:54:15 PM >

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:56:27 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline
quote:

I've got to say, that was a classy line.
It is, I'm considering it as the SQotD, but Awareness got one not too long ago and it isn't supposed to go to somebody who recently got one, so I'm looking for an alternative, but haven't spotted one yet.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:56:38 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

That is really interesting hausboy, I had no idea that there was that 2nd adolescence phase. And that it extends to wanting to get a skateboard and things too. That is really fascinating.

I see that causing a lot of broken bones LOL.

35 years ago, me on a skateboard, I could literally ride handstands.

Now, I'd just die...........slowly...................painfully.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 6:59:44 PM   
hausboy


Posts: 2360
Joined: 9/5/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker


And if we "shut the fuck up" then they tell their feel-good stories, we all get a sensational feeling over us, then I put on my longcoat and go out to get a drink from the store only to see a TG person being openly ridiculed by people on the street and called a "freak" or "weirdo." 

The only thing I have learned from this topic is that many people here prefer to live in a bubble when it comes to these issues.  Now I'll ask if you're implying, but I do hope you're not so dense to see that just because I do not adhere to transsexuals means I am suddenly prejudice against them. 


Here is where I truly do not understand you. seriously.
So the transgender folks on CM share their stories--which on this thread have been positive--and by positive, I mean: the stories shared may have come from a place of pain but the lives being lived now by those shared are happy.  I'm not sure why that bothers you.

So....You see a person get harassed for being transgender--that bothers you--as it should.  No one should be harassed, I know that would bother me too if I saw it happening.  The assault on youtube at McDonalds was extremely upsetting to me.

I'm having trouble following what I think you are saying....
do you think that by our sharing our positive experiences as transgender people, that we are saying that discrimination and harassment don't occur?  I don't think anyone is saying that.  Trying to understand this....are we giving a false sense of hope to the transgender person....that if they transition they won't ever face obstacles?  Don't believe anyone has said that either.  I attend a day of remembrance every year for my trans friends who die from either their hands...or the hands of others.  I know the reality.

I don't get your bubble comment...because I don't see anyone here living in a bubble.   I've been assaulted, harassed, discriminated against...all those things you mentioned.  My eyes are wide fucking open, all the time.  I live stealth to protect myself.  Why do you seem to think that we are not aware of the dangers of our society?  What I have seen...in just the last 20 years...is incredible progress made towards acceptance and understanding.  No, I didn't see any progress in that McDonald's that just a few miles from my house....but the compassionate way that the topic was approached by certain news outlets....and the outpouring of empathy and support by the public at large..it was progress.

Does being transgender suck/  Well, for me, sometimes it really does.
Is my life more challenging because I'm TG?  Sometimes, yes. it is.  I have challenges most bio-guys don't have to think about.
Has my life improved after transition?  Immeasurably.  Aren't enough words to explain how dramatically better life is now.
Do I wish I had been born "normal"?  Yes--I would have been spared a lot of surgery, suffering and saved a lot of money. 
Deal with the hand I've been dealt?  I do.  I tossed the cards that I didn't need and picked a few that made a good hand.

And if the only thing you claim to have learned is that "many people live in a bubble when it comes to these issues"  then you haven't really learned anything at all, and that's a damn shame.  there's some good gems on this thread.

(in reply to NocturnalStalker)
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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 7:15:34 PM   
hausboy


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Joined: 9/5/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

That is really interesting hausboy, I had no idea that there was that 2nd adolescence phase. And that it extends to wanting to get a skateboard and things too. That is really fascinating.


True.  I think the desire to do "boy things" like get a skateboard is mostly social....as in, man, I never had one of these as a girl but now I'm a boy so I can get one...    it's not unusual for new FTMs to hang out with other new FTMs....we used to call them "wolf packs"...and if you saw us those first few months, sitting around watching Beavis and Butthead, eating pizza and making fart jokes....well....we may as well have all been teenagers.

But the puberty is TOTALLY real.  Oh did it suck!  I now understand teenage boys in a way I never did before.  The acne....the attention span...the constant hunger...the sheer stupidity and lack of judgment at times....it was like a weird drive in my brain that told me to do stupid things....and the other part of my brain had to step in and say:  "wrestle with this guy and you'll just end up losing....and hurting..."  "No you really don't need to eat 3 cheeseburgers..."  Thank goodness for the little voice that said "what the FUCK are you DOING??? Call someone before you get hurt..."

The horniness was unlike anything I've ever experienced.  It was beyond distracting--it was overwhelming at times.  there were a few times, at work, I had to go into the mens room and jack off because it was impossible to focus on my work.  I felt so ashamed about this--until another FTM told me he had to do the same thing!    And the horny impulses were actually, really awful.  At times, I wanted to hump anything and anyone.  The stupidiest shit gave me a hard on....  I would have fantasies about women who were just walking by...it was kinda scary.   My (ex) wife reaped the benefit--we must have fucked every single night, more than once a night, for several months. (she had a higher sex drive than I had, so she was thrilled)

And I used to laugh at men who would "talk to the tits".... then it happened to me.  My co-worker (who I was out to) had rather large breasts, and she would wear low cut blouses to show off her cleavage.  Thankfully we had a good working friendship--I had to tell her--could you please possibly cover up a little?  it's so distracting, I'm having trouble focusing....every you walk in here, I have to recite "look at her eyes, look at her eyes....stop looking there  stop looking there" 

I was so happy when my hormone levels were finally even, and everything "settled down." 

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 7:41:54 PM   
MissToYouRedux


Posts: 867
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

That is really interesting hausboy, I had no idea that there was that 2nd adolescence phase. And that it extends to wanting to get a skateboard and things too. That is really fascinating.


Ditto. And your explanations are more and more interesting. Thanks for opening up that world.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 7:55:07 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		WOW! I had no idea.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 8:16:06 PM   
VideoAdminAlpha


Posts: 3876
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		I just looked on the thread and it appears that of the last few posts, 2 posters are the main discussion fora, and from glancing through recently I see several personal attacks in the form of name calling, so I am going to lock this thread and review for cleanup and/or pulling.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 11:48:38 PM   
VideoAdminAlpha


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Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		I've cleaned up the thread and am opening it back up. This is a sensitive issue. Play nice and stay on topic please.

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You can't please all the people all of the time.Unfortunately there are times you cannot please any of them :( You can only do your best, and hope they realize that.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 4:14:05 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1152
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi hausboy, I never realised that f/m go through a period of puberty, it might explain some of the things that really irritate people when they meet though. Men who act like stupid teenagers really irritate most women, if you see an adult man on a skateboard you’re going to think idiot and possibly midlife crisis. That’s enough to make most people stay clear on its own.

The transsexuals I met were m/f their dress sense was appalling, it ranged between night out to porn star and their makeup and hair was always full on evening night out. That was bad enough but the way they acted shouted CAMP!! Not female. Even when they looked very feminine you thought they were just very androgynous drag queens. Everything was exaggerated and I couldn’t ask them why as they were so defensive they would have taken it as an attack.

I have friends who wear medieval dress everywhere, you constantly get people laughing and pointing wherever they go, and you expect that considering their dress. But if you want to be accepted as a woman you have to fit in (sad but true). And people might be doing double takes and laughing at the dress sense not the person.

So anyone willing to explain to me why some men during or after their transition to women want to dress like cheap hookers as that always really puzzled me. It was almost as if they took the worst way women are portrayed in the media and wanted to live that life. It might work for Dolly Parton who wanted to grow up looking like cheap trash and made a fortune doing it, but for most of us it really doesn’t work.

Cheryl


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 4:23:18 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

. It might work for Dolly Parton who wanted to grow up looking like cheap trash and made a fortune doing it, but for most of us it really doesn’t work.

Cheryl



For God's sake, Cheryl - you know most of the readers here are American? And you've just insulted Dolly Parton! You know the Yanks have aircraft carriers that still have real fighter aircraft on them, don't you?


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 4:26:26 AM   
Ninebelowzero


Posts: 3134
Joined: 8/5/2011
Status: offline 		PMSL Quote of the day so far mate!
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

. It might work for Dolly Parton who wanted to grow up looking like cheap trash and made a fortune doing it, but for most of us it really doesn’t work.

Cheryl



For God's sake, Cheryl - you know most of the readers here are American? And you've just insulted Dolly Parton! You know the Yanks have aircraft carriers that still have real fighter aircraft on them, don't you?




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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 4:35:34 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

Hi xssve...
I don't think all plastic surgery is bogus....
Chest surgery for FTMs is really necessary for a variety of reasons for many guys.

I definitely did NOT want to have chest surgery.  It was complex, painful and was going to cost me (all costs considered) close to $10K.  For the first 2 years, I managed to go without.  It meant I had to give up swimming/beach....had to change at home before/after the gym (which got old quick), and I had to give up massages, PT (unless I was going to come out to the Physical therapist, which I didn't want to do over a shoulder issue) and then there's the whole issue of binding.  The summers were horrid, having to wear 2 or 3 shirts--binders are murder.  it became very problematic.

Post chest surgery?  What a difference.  I'm back swimming, back at the gym, massage therapist, rolfer, PT...all good.  I can simply change without a moment of worry, and there's something absolutely fantastic about going out to my truck after a day of hiking, and just changing my tee shirt in the parking lot.   It wasn't medically necessary for me to get the surgery--I wasn't large so I didn't have back pain and didn't have the "please get these things off me or else" that most of my friends did-- but for me, it was simply a quality of life.

I paid out of pocket for that quality of life, and it was worth every penny.  One of my bio-male buddies is very overweight--he won't take his shirt of in public because he's embarrassed by his "man-boobs."  He understood my need to have surgery better than my (ex) wife did!

I'm just talking about TG surgery specifically, I'm talking about all of it - it makes me wonder what it is about this culture that has so many people hating themselves for the way they look, whatever happened to having a personality?

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 5:14:23 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

. It might work for Dolly Parton who wanted to grow up looking like cheap trash and made a fortune doing it, but for most of us it really doesn’t work.

Cheryl



For God's sake, Cheryl - you know most of the readers here are American? And you've just insulted Dolly Parton! You know the Yanks have aircraft carriers that still have real fighter aircraft on them, don't you?




Peon, dearest.. Cheryl didn't insult Dolly!

Just read through these!: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/d/dolly_parton.html

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