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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 3:07:28 PM   
PolyDommesgirl


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SweetCheri, offer myself as support to you or your friend.
I am just outside Toronto, if you ever happen to be in the area.
I can speak a little french, but honestly it is poor. Une petit peux du Francais.
I am open to speaking on, Collar Me Chat, M.S.N. Chat, Yahoo Chat & Face Book Chat..
Don't be a stranger.
If an emergency arises, please do contact me.

dee




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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 8:56:38 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

at least one tragedy has been put off for the time being.
I don't know Louise, nor have I heard of her before reading Cheri's post, but I too want to extend my thanks to the trans folks who have contributed to this thread, not just for sharing their stories with the regular pervs, but for doing so with the nameless, faceless others who make up the 27,000 + guests who are on this site right now. Who knows how many Louises there are among them.

Well done my friends, without even being aware of her, you've kept one young girl alive, and given her solace in her time of need...no small accomplishment, that.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 9:15:13 PM   
Cherylmazana


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quote:

As for the fashion issue:
bad fashion is an epidemic that affects everyone.
the problem is that on a TG woman, it's just that much more apparent. I went to a formal Christmas ball sponsored by TGEA, a TG education alliance in Northern Virginia. You saw everything from women in full length ball gowns to little sexy black dresses to business pant suits..... to.....slutty teeny bopper look. I sat a table with a friend who (self-ID'd as a crossdresser at the time, I heard she since transitioned) I kid you not, sat with my wife and the two of them must have critiqued every woman in that place!


I had to laugh when I read this, one work related Christmas ball I went to a woman turned up who had the bad taste to wear the same dress she had worn the year before. The comments were flying around all night.

Also at every formal occasion I have been to for the first couple of hours before the drink kicks in the main topic of conversation between the ladies is the other womens clothes.

Men think women dress for them, we don’t, we dress to impress each other and to make sure we are not the ones who the moment our backs are turned are ripped apart by the others over our appalling taste.

A favourite game of my mother and her friends and surprisingly my mother-in-law as well (which means probably a lot of women sitting down chatting are doing the same) in the summer was sitting in the city centre and watching the people going by, then commenting on their clothes. It can be amusing at times.

Cheryl


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 10:30:43 PM   
missygwen


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I wish I had time to go through this entire thread in detail, but then I'd probably be writing replies to posts from four months ago. :)

I've always had a bit of trouble "fitting in" to the transgender community.  In the first place, the word itself has evolved.  When I first became conscious of the phenomenon, the term for someone who transitioned from one sex to the other surgically was "transsexual." Men who dressed like women purely as a fetish were "transvestites."  There wasn't much awareness of anything in between.  When I first became aware of the term "transgender" it seemed to imply someone who identified with the other gender, but not to the point of cross-living full time, let alone surgery.  Since then it has definitely broadened to include those who transition, and if I used the word "transgendered" to describe myself, people seem to assume I cross-live full time, which is not the case (though I wish I could try it for a while!). 

More recently, I encountered the term "autogynephile" which is a rather controversial one.  I read Michael Bailey's The Man Who Would Be Queen,  and I have mixed feelings regarding it.  I definitely reject the theory that all MtF "transgendered" persons (the book doesn't deal with FtM) fit into the two niches Bailey defines -- but on a personal level, his description of "autogynephile" fits me more closely than anything I've run across.   So there is I think some validity to the theory.

In chatting with other gender-community folks online, though, I tend to find they do fall into one of two categories.  There are the actually transgendered/transsexuals, who are usually somewhere in the process of transitioning.  Their discussion is often about the medical and legal issues - the hormones, the surgeons, employment matters, and so on.  I respect these individuals tremendously and find the subject interesting, but it's not where I am (and I have run across those who seem a bit disdainful of those who "merely" crossdress).

Then there are the others, for whom crossdressing is basically One Big Party!  It comes across more like a hobby, and their posts are mostly about the clothes, the shopping, the clubbing, meeting each other and having a good time.  Which again is fine, but it seems to bypass a lot of the issues I am concerned with.  I find some aspects of being who I am massively frustrating, and none more so than that finding a romantic partner seems a virtually impossible task.  (And so far, being kinky hasn't really helped....)   So sometimes I do feel all alone out here....someone who has never really seriously considered transitioning, partly for practical reasons, but also because I think if it were the right direction for me I would know it, and I'm nowhere near that sure.  But also someone who, well, takes it seriously, I guess. 

My kinky side actually confuses the issue more, because I do have some attraction to aspects of the "forced femme" scenario, and that's in many ways (I think) unrelated to transgender issues.  But I think it means, again, that I'm apt to not be seen as being "for real" somehow.  When actually I think I'm just terribly indecisive. :)

Anyway, sorry to go on at length.  I will say the anti-transgender bigotry I have occasionally encountered even among people who are very accepting of just about everything else has appalled me.  (But I have also been amazed and appalled on a few occasions to find homophobia in the transgender community, which just makes my head explode....)


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 10:47:29 PM   
SweetCheri


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Thanks for the tips and the link, I have sent them to Louise, I'm sure she will find them helpful.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/20/2011 10:52:37 PM   
SweetCheri


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Thank you PDG, I appreciate the offer and will pass it on to Louise, If she, or I, has the need, you will hear from me. And not to worry, Francais will not be needed, like me, Lou is a Franco-Ontarian, English will be perfectly alright.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 6:18:32 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Oh fer chrissakes, I think the whole surgical addiction phenomena begins with narcissistic fashion nazi's.

Gimme camp and kitsch over snarky uberhip any day, it's fucking tedious.




then go to some drag shows!!!
But I'm not into drag queens particularly, I'm into spectacle, cabaret, gender bending is part of that, but it's a more generalized polymorphic perversity that I like, people just being themselves, however weird that might otherwise seem.

Fronting, basically, tuns me off, I don't really care what your thing is is, if it's your thing.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 6:33:43 AM   
xssve


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And, "authenticity" as an individual, more like integrity to oneself, however complex and confusing that might be - not to be confused with authenticity of role - acting is a thing, the human personality is a multifaceted thing, culture tries to stick you into a single mold, gender is one of those, we all have male and female in us, male and female are just two sides of the same coin, there are distinct spheres of experience but they overlap a lot more than some people care to admit.

We all have faces and facets we're under stricture not to show under ordinary circumstances, I like to see those other faces and facets, it's that complexity of identity that makes us human as opposed to cattle, the human condition.

If you ask me, all the gender hysteria is a lot of whistling in the dark because it's never as clear cut as it seems.

< Message edited by xssve -- 11/21/2011 6:34:29 AM >

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 9:02:41 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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Something happening in Russia that you might find interesting...

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/253236/20111121/russia-passes-anti-gay-law-makes-homosexuals.htm

http://www.allout.org/en/russia_silenced?akid=374.705208.5kN48D&rd=1&t=3&utm_campaign=russia_silenced&utm_content=english&utm_medium=email&utm_source=actionkit




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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 10:32:35 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana
snip

I had to laugh when I read this, one work related Christmas ball I went to a woman turned up who had the bad taste to wear the same dress she had worn the year before. The comments were flying around all night.

snip



Hijack I know, but really?  Folks remember and care what someone wore the year before to an office party?

Damn, I am once again glad to be a jeans and flannel shirts type chickie. 

As to the thread, I love it.  It has made me think and rethink a few things.  I may come back and talk about them, once I get it all straight in my head.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 1:02:55 PM   
Wolf2Bear


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~FR~

Cherylmazana.....It's not the fact that his vfiews don't sync with everyone else, as we know not everyone will agree on everything, but it's the fact that when many of us do present alternate facts and experiences, it is discarded as if our opinions mean sweet fuck all. It is fine that your findings are different yet the fact is in many areas of the US and Canada, the facts contradict that. As I read the OP, no where did the original topic indicate a sexual relationsgip but a platonic friendship and even just trying to live among the general society and the views that society has against anyone who identify as TG or intersexed.

[qoute]
Most people are not comfortable enough to want to be friends with someone who doesn’t fit in very well. And the transgendered that I met certainly didn’t fit in very well because they had such huge psychological problems from being transgendered. They thought the world was out to get them, but then again they had good reason for that paranoia because the evidence was with them on that issue.
[/qoute]

Seems to me that the uncomfortably is based on many people having no bloody idea on the issues and the day to day struggle a Trans person has to face when they are trying to come to terms with melding their physical body with how they honestly believe is incorrect. Add on to that the entire psychological issues which even I am unable to fully comprehend.

[qoute]
Daily I work with racists, homophobes, football hooligans who quite happily believe putting the boot in is justified because you support the wrong team, and every other type of bigot going and all of it is considered acceptable, not legal or sociably acceptable but amongst “ok with friends”. And that’s the difference, people will say things in private and with friends they will deny to your face. At least Nocturnal is open and honest unlike most others.
[/qoute]

It's fine just having to work with those whom you listed but I am one of those who works and lives with them. Look at it this way: how would you feel if us who are not hetero, who are trans, who are bisexual etc.,, were to blatantly through the racism and the prejuduices back into your face 24/7/365 days a year?  It would be so easy for one such as myself to start calling all who are in the 90% club "breeders" and all the negative associations with that slur. Problem is that if I start doing that, then I make myself no better than the ones who are harassing/slandering and even bullying the less fortunate ones who are unable to stand up and use their own voice. It is so ironic that most kinksters are always bitching and whining about wanting acceptance and understanding from the vanilla world yet, we kinkster are too dammed stupid to show understanding and compassion to someone who is trans/intersexed. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black eh?




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Take the pleasure
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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 1:20:13 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

Something happening in Russia that you might find interesting...

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/253236/20111121/russia-passes-anti-gay-law-makes-homosexuals.htm

http://www.allout.org/en/russia_silenced?akid=374.705208.5kN48D&rd=1&t=3&utm_campaign=russia_silenced&utm_content=english&utm_medium=email&utm_source=actionkit


Duly signed. Reactionary farts. God, the Russian political class has got such a long way to go.




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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 1:55:46 PM   
strawberryshake


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quote:

So anyone willing to explain to me why some men during or after their transition to women want to dress like cheap hookers as that always really puzzled me.

The transsexuals I met were m/f their dress sense was appalling, it ranged between night out to porn star and their makeup and hair was always full on evening night out. That was bad enough but the way they acted shouted CAMP!! Not female. Even when they looked very feminine you thought they were just very androgynous drag queens. Everything was exaggerated and I couldn’t ask them why as they were so defensive they would have taken it as an attack.

So anyone willing to explain to me why some men during or after their transition to women want to dress like cheap hookers as that always really puzzled me. It was almost as if they took the worst way women are portrayed in the media and wanted to live that life."

I have never had the desire to dress in the way You describe above.  As a transsexual woman I've always wanted to be indistinguishable from a genetic woman in my appearance and action.  I can't really understand why a transsexual person would intentionally want to stand out like that as it can make one a target.

Maybe the people you are referring too are cross-dressers or transvestites rather than transsexuals. 




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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 2:16:12 PM   
strawberryshake


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Also, a transsexual person undergoing transition has a few years to learn what people in their desired sex have had their entire lives to learn.  This has to do with everything from how to dress, to social graces, to mannerisms, to putting emphasis on certain syllables when we speak, to how to sit, stand and style your hair.......the list goes on.  As you can imagine, this can be very overwhelming.  Perhaps these people have not put much focus into developing a sense of personal style because they've been busy developing other other things.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 2:26:37 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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As always, I appreciate your insights.

One of the things that has really bugged me about this thread, is that so many do not appear to the know the difference between a cross-dresser, a transvestite, a transgendered, and an intersexed person.

Now, I do understand that there is a great deal of overlap between some of these labels.

My interpretation of the labels (may not be your own):

Cross-dresser:

Often a straight male who just so happens to like female clothing. It could be as simple as buying silk boxers to wear, or a full-fledged obsession with hair, makeup, nails, clothes of a very femmy nature, etc. Often cross-dressers are not into the kink scene or the gay scene. They are entirely straight. But even if they like to play around at home for hours (and tend to binge and purge) they rarely try to pass, that is, try to pass for the other gender in a public setting.

Some enter the kink scene or the gay scene seeking acceptance. Most keep it a super secret.

Transvestite:

A homosexual who likes to dress in female or male clothing, depending on whether he is gay or she is lesbian. Transvestites run the gamut from those who pass seamlessly to those who will never pass and don't care, from those who dress (literally) for the entertainment value to those who adopt more subtle attire.The big difference between a transvestite and a cross-dresser is the homosexuality and (often) the desire to "pass."

Generally, transvestite tend to find more acceptance in the gay scene.

For many transvestites, as for many cross-dressers, it's a big, dark secret they never share.

Transgender:

Someone who quite literally feels that they are in the body of a female for instance, but should have been born a male (or vice-versa). They are not "playing" like the cross-dressers or gay like the transvestites. A male who thinks he should be female, would, after all, be attracted to males. So a transgendered person does not see himself/herslef as gay, since quite naturally they are attracted to the same sex.

There are many stages of being transgendered, from thinking you are caught up in the body of the wrong gender, to hormone therapy, to surgery, etc. For the individual, this is a huge long road with little acceptance from any community and the possibility of being ostracized from family, friends, colleagues, etc.

Unlike cross-dressers and transvestites, a transgendered person has a hard time keeping this a big secret, b/c it's just such a huge part of who they are. As has been mentioned, those who try to keep this under wraps have poor emotional health and a much higher rate of suicide.

Intersexed:

Someone born with both male and female gentalia and once called a hermaphrodite. These days, babies born intersexed tend to brought up in a culture of having a medical problem, and parents are strongly encouraged to see it that way as well. With good family acceptance, the intersexed have a better chance of good mental health for the simple reason that the medical community accepts it as a problem that can be solved.

What an important word here: Acceptance.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 2:42:52 PM   
njlauren


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I thought I would throw some more commentary out there, haven't had much time to post in recent days.

In terms of the outrageous dressing of trans people as some posters have allude to, it depends on who you are talking about. Drag Queens by their very nature are into over the top glam, whatever you call it. For many crossdressers, it is about a sexual turn on, they dress sexy/slutty because it is a turn on (and for a significant percentage of them, it also is about attracting a sexual partner into CD's......after all, think about the attraction to slutty women some men (and women) have, not all that much different. Obviously, there are crossdressers who don't dress out there, who would wear things more like a typical woman would do, maybe wear jeans with a pair of nice shoes and a sweater, or whatever (especially for CD's who want to be out there as woman)..it all depends.

For trans people who are transitioning, if they seem to have fashion faux pas and dress like sluts or whatever, I think it is as others have written based on my own experiences, it is about being free finally, about being able to explore and experiment, and yes it can be outrageous. Part of it is where many trans girls get their starts, it often is in so called "TG" clubs or mixed clubs where outrageous dress is not exactly unknown.....but it is also about experiencing what they never had. Take a look at young women , teenage girls and girls in their 20's, and what do you see? Quite often , girls who are pushing the limits, the tight outfits, outrageous heels, heavy makeup, low cut tops, miniskirts, etc.......talk to people who manage young women and ask their experience with explaining appropriate work attire and so forth.....as others have pointed out, M to F trans people kind of go through a second teenagehood, including hormonal mood swings, etc (the picture I use on here was taken early in transition, in a club....later on you would likely see me in Jeans and a sweater and a nice pair of boots, lot less makeup., etc...:unless, of course, doing something where slutwear is appropriate...). Most get over this, unless they are really young and want to fit in with what 'real' girls are wearing. Yeah, it is counterproductive, if you are 6' tall already with marginal features for passing, you don't want to wear higher heels or a lot of makeup, you don't want to draw attention to yourself. A common saying is you don't want to rate a second glance, because a second glance is often the killer...:).  I have heard and seen similar things with F to M's I know, many of them kind of go off into teenage boy/joe cool mode, become overtly agressive, in some cases almost bordering on becoming stereotypes....I suspect for the same reasons as M to F's, and also probably because of Testosterone, which is pretty heavy duty stuff.

As far as with the forum contrarian with claims science should be finding a way to 'cure this' abnormality (and said the same thing about gays and lesbians), first of all, use of the word 'normal' and 'abnormal' has a major problem. If you want to argue that being gay or being trans is statitistically 'abnormal' i.e out of the norm, the middle of the bell curve, of course...but so are left handed people, people with blue eyes, people with IQ's above 132, people with six toes, women with three breasts, women over 6' tall in most societies, natural blonds, etc.......

As far as defining it in the context that abnormal= deviant, weird, sick, etc, I would be careful about that, anyone on this board by its very nature is defined by a lot of people as that, there are plenty of the religious right types who hate gays who would want to make anyone's life on here hell, they would define it is 'sick', perverted, deviant, etc, and would want laws to make it illegal (the late, unlamented Sodomy Laws in Texas made bd/sm activity illegal as well).....so where do we draw the line? The poster who said being gay or trans was 'abnormal' is practicing extreme myopia, because bd/sm is considered abnormal by a lot of people and they would want to 'cure' people of it, too.......

Being gay has signs it is not abnormal but rather is a normal variation, as being left handed is or blue eyes or extremely tall. Abnormalities, specifically genetic abnormalities, tend to occur in populations in relatively small numbers, genetic born diseases like Tay Sachs and so forth tend to be in less then 1% of the population; whereas gay and lesbians are anywhere from 5-10% of the population. More importantly, gays and lesbians represent evolutionarily distinct advantages to the species, among which is seen in gays and lesbians with adoption, they tend to end up as caregivers in animal communities for other people's kids, helping raise them....and despite the rise of gays and lesbians with kids, they tend to have lesser numbers so they represent more resources for those who have kids. And despite what the religious right claims, homosexuality has been found in over 300 species of higher animals, and more importantly, in human society it has been found in every culture, including ones isolated from the 'modern world' until recently, which takes away the idea that it is a product of 'modern society' or as the morons in Africa claim "invented by the Europeans and Americans and brought to Africa".....

Likewise, evidence of transgender or gender variant behavior is found across cultures going back many thousands of years, long before modern man had words for it, so it isn't the sexual revolution or 'made up' as some nasty writers in books and such have said.

While no one has a definite answer on why someone is either gay or trans, there is a lot of evidence out there, people have been studying it, and so far there is a lot of evidence that it isn't a psychological condition caused by circumstances, it seems to be inate, something there from early childhood. And the evidence, while not conclusive, is pretty strong:

-There have been years and years of attempts to 'cure' being trans or gay through therapy, all kinds of 'reparative' therapy out there, all kinds of use of drugs to diminish sex drive (which in theory would take out trans behavior if it were a fetish, and it fails for those truly transgender), all kinds of vicious aversion therapy, shock therapy, and it doesn't work. With so called reparative therapy. less then 5% of those so treated within 5 years stay living the 'straight and narrow' life, and other attempts have even less effectiveness, despite attempts by many over the past 40 or 50 years to try. Put it this way, you go to the FDA with a drug that works 5% of the time, and watch what they say.....

-Studies of the brains of transsexuals/transgender identified people have shown different brain structure, with M to F's having more the structure of a genetic female (I don't know about M to F's). The studies are limited, but what it indicates is that trans identification may be a factor of brain structure, kind of like a female brain in a male body...

-Some significant studies of mamalian development has shown that developing as a male or female is very, very complex. Most people, for example, know that  embryos all start out as female and then sometime in the development process bifurcate to physically develop into male or female. What studies and experiments with mamalian embryos in utero is showing is that the physical development is only part of it. Apparently, in the womb the embryo is subject to cycles of hormones from the mother,that happen at specific times in the gestation period, and what scientists have shown is if you interrupt that cycle, of a hormone 'bath' doesn't happen in a specific way, that the offspring that is born can display gender traits opposite to their body, you can get an otherwise female mouse or whatever, of example, displaying the agression and attributes of a male, including sexual behavior, and a male mouse doing the opposite.

Does this prove anything? No, but then again, no one has proven anything about how  personality develops, how our intellect develops, but  that doesn't mean we don't believe for example an extrovert or an introverted personality is invalid, even though we don't know why some are introverted and some extroverted, we simply accept it that people are different, and it should be the same way with gender or sexual variations.

It isn't like I don't understand what people are talking about when they say it can  be uncomfortable when seeing/being with a trans person, or that it triggers weirdness bells and such, I can more then understand it. Yes, we are programmed to pick out that is different, a friend of mine a long time ago, talking about why even now you can pick out CGI graphics and tell the difference from 'real' images, as he put it we have 6 million years of evolution to tell us that anything different may be a threat..on the other hand, we also have an evolving society that makes the effort to overcome that instinct, because it isn't always a good thing. For example, xenophobia is often based in fear of those we don't know or look different, or we get squicked by people with deformities, and few would argue either are good things. I more then understand people being uncomfortable with trans folks and I can understand them having trouble coming to grips with it, and if they don't want to be around me, that is fine quite honestly, why would I want to be around someone who doesn't want to be around me? On the other hand, all I would expect is the same kind of courtesy you give other people who are different, simply treat myself or others as human beings, what I would expect if someone doesn't like someone who is Jewish or black or wiccan or short or tall or whatever..I would hope people are able to look beyond things and realize being trans is what someone is, not who they are, but what civilization is supposed to be about is overcoming animal instincts to be able to live together.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 3:03:20 PM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

Something happening in Russia that you might find interesting...

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/253236/20111121/russia-passes-anti-gay-law-makes-homosexuals.htm

http://www.allout.org/en/russia_silenced?akid=374.705208.5kN48D&rd=1&t=3&utm_campaign=russia_silenced&utm_content=english&utm_medium=email&utm_source=actionkit


Duly signed. Reactionary farts. God, the Russian political class has got such a long way to go.





Ditto, thanks for posting link Lilly


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(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 437
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 5:01:10 PM   
strawberryshake


Posts: 21
Joined: 11/14/2011
Status: offline
That's a very good explanation. However, I would like to emphasize that sexual orientation(homo, hetero, bi) has nothing to do with gender expression(man,woman).  So I would not say that transvestites tend to homosexual.

Trans is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side".
Gender is a range of characteristics used to distinguish between males and females, particularly in the cases of men and women and the masculine and feminine attributes assigned to them.

Trans-gender is an umbrella term which includes transsexuals, transvestites, and cross-dressers.  Because all acquire characteristics of the opposite gender that they are expected to display.  Transsexuals do it permanently, transvestites for the weekend and cross-dressers for a couple of hours.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 438
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 5:44:16 PM   
strawberryshake


Posts: 21
Joined: 11/14/2011
Status: offline
I would also like to emphasize that i have become a woman physically because i am and have always been a woman mentally and emotionally. I was completely uncomfortable and unhappy pre-transition and i do not get any satisfaction other than the comfort of normalcy from being this way.



(in reply to strawberryshake)
Profile   Post #: 439
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/21/2011 6:34:18 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: strawberryshake

I would also like to emphasize that i have become a woman physically because i am and have always been a woman mentally and emotionally. I was completely uncomfortable and unhappy pre-transition and i do not get any satisfaction other than the comfort of normalcy from being this way.



The trouble is that it's 'only your feelings', strawberryshake - or so others may imply (and sometimes even state, explicitly). At one time, soul used to be more important than mind, and mind more important than body. Nowadays, the order's been reversed.

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(in reply to strawberryshake)
Profile   Post #: 440
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