RE: Breastfeeding In Court?

Post #: 41

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 2:53:17 AM

Winterapple

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No it isn't rocket science it's basic
biology. A human doesn't lose the
ability to listen, comprehend and
respond while nursing her offspring.
It's her turn before the judge, if she
can't be in his presence while nursing
and she is nursing she can't very well
listen to him can she?

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Post #: 42

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 3:31:50 AM

TheFireWithinMe

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quote:

The judge said it was distracting and inappropriate.

The judge didn't even know about it until the bailiff called his attention to it. Had the bailiff said nothing, she would have finished nursing her baby with noone the wiser.

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Post #: 43

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 4:52:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
No it isn't rocket science it's basic biology. A human doesn't lose the ability to listen, comprehend and respond while nursing her offspring.
It's her turn before the judge, if she can't be in his presence while nursing and she is nursing she can't very well listen to him can she?

I don't think you understand the issue. It was not her turn. She was in the back of the courtroom and causing a distraction. Thus, she was told to leave. When it's her turn, the bailiff can (and probably did) go and get her so she could have her case heard.

Very simple. Not nearly as big an affront as it's being made out to be.

(in reply to Winterapple)

Post #: 44

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 4:53:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe
The judge didn't even know about it until the bailiff called his attention to it. Had the bailiff said nothing, she would have finished nursing her baby with noone the wiser.

Well there you go. It was distracting the bailiff. It was apparently distracting him enough to call attention to it. Ergo -- distraction.

(in reply to TheFireWithinMe)

Post #: 45

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 5:03:25 AM

DarkSteven

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Like it or not, a judge is in control of the courtroom. Actually, his or her sole function is to control how things go down in the court.

While I'm not against public breastfeeding per se, I don't think that a courtroom is the proper place for a sick child who could be a distraction. I'm surprised the court focused on the breastfeeding and not on the presence of a child.

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Post #: 46

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 5:09:33 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

I think the balif could of gone and handled it quietly, there was no need to make the lady humiliated an make her cry.

And how do you get much quieter than a handwritten note?

The note was from the bailiff to the judge.

(in reply to lazarus1983)

Post #: 47

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 5:31:37 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe

quote:

The judge said it was distracting and inappropriate.

The judge didn't even know about it until the bailiff called his attention to it. Had the bailiff said nothing, she would have finished nursing her baby with noone the wiser.

Yes - look at the video, which has a re-creation that implies that the baby was under a blanket, in which case the bailiff couldn't even see the baby, let alone a breast. And he wasn't sure, as shown by his repeated questioning, "Are you breastfeeding? Are you breastfeeding?!?"

I spent a lot of time sitting in a munie courtroom this summer waiting for a family member's case to be called. There was a lot of quiet commotion and confusion. A woman sitting in the back breastfeeding with her baby under a blanket would not have been a distraction. It wasn't the act itself, but that a breast was involved.

If it had been me and I was in the courtroom I'd visited, I would have notified the bailiff that I was stepping out, and would have fed my child on the bench in the hall. But I don't fault the woman for staying in her courtroom. I fault society for turning the act of a mother feeding her child into "distracting and inappropriate."

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Post #: 48

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 6:10:20 AM

Winterapple

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I understand the issue.
I was responding firstly to the
statement that a nursing mother
would be to distracted to listen
to a judge and secondly to the idea
she should have left the courtroom.
You assume that when the bailiff would
go and retrieve her or another nursing
mother she would be through nursing or
could stop. But hungry infants and milk
swollen breasts don't pay much attention
to bailiffs.
The distraction seems to have come from
the bailiff as much as anyone.
There could be situations where a nursing
mother needs to stay in the courtroom
and follow the proceedings.
I was also addressing the hypocritical,
hysterical reactions to breastfeeding.
There's nothing indecent about nursing
a baby. It would not bother me if a mother
nursed her baby in court, in church, in a
shop or a restaurant. I don't think court
is a great place to bring a baby but she
may have had little choice but to do so.
There's a lot of lip service in this country
about motherhood. I read a interview with
Jack Nicholson I think where he said in a
American movie it's ok to show a woman
getting her breast shot off but you can't
show a woman nursing a baby.
I think some of the hostile attitudes are
caving in as more women return to
breastfeeding. The commotion nursing
causes is on the people who overact to
something pure, loving and nurturing.
And as matter of fact as breathing.
It's rooted in the same bourgeois prudery
that freaks out at gay couples holding
hands or that back in the day was
scandalized by a woman wearing pants
or riding a bicycle. If it offends you
don't look. And back to the court thing
being a nursing mother doesn't make you
a second class citizen. Everyones entitled
to their day in court even with a baby
on their breast.And if she had been bottle
feeding her baby there might have been
a few grumbles but it wouldn't have
escalated to the judge harranging her in
open court. It was about the titty not
the baby.

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Post #: 49

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 6:15:29 AM

Winterapple

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When I say hypocritical and hysterical
reactions to breastfeeding I wasn't
referring to anyone posting in the thread.
I meant American and other western
societies attitudes towered breastfeeding.

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Post #: 50

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 6:45:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetCheri

quote:

So it is appropriate to feed your child while you are going to the bathroom, sitting on the toilet?
Yes, while I don't think it would be my first choice of a place to nurse, it is entirely appropriate to do so. In fact, on a toilet in a stall in a public washroom is traditionally where women were expected to nurse when not at home, and in many places where they still are expected to. I don't see how it could be inappropriate for a woman to chose to do so, but not inappropriate for a woman to have to do so.

Can you name one place where that is where a woman "must" breastfeed? Or is it that she has chosen to do so? Let's get real here, anyone who has had a child knows around when their child is going to need to be fed. If you are breastfeeding, YOU know after a short period of time when this is going to be necessary. So as a parent, your schedule works around your kids. In other words, if you are at the mall, you know which stores offer a lounge and keep an pay attention to be in that area when the time comes.

quote:

quote:

If she wasn't breast feeding, but bottle feeding, the same thing likely would have happened. There is an expectation of behavior in court. That would be that the litigants offer their full attention to the judge, which isn't happening if you are breastfeeding.
And what of the many other people in the court who are not litigants at that moment? And how does nursing your child prevent your attorney from doing their job properly? And how does nursing in the courtroom interfere with my ability to pay attention more than leaving the room to nurse would?

So would you brush your hair in court? Let's take the whole "breast" out of the picture? Are you so disrespectful of the court that you feel that would be appropriate as well? After all, it isn't illegal, your hair is messy, so are you going to brush it?

Did you read the article? Was she sitting at the plaintiff or defense table? Did she have an attorney? Do you know what occurs in a US courtroom?

quote:

quote:

So if the new mom is somewhere that the general public is not allowed to eat or drink, she should feel fine feeding her child?
Yes, of course, the child is unaware of the social conventions that may be in play and its needs are beyond the control of the mother.

So when is a parent responsible for teaching the child about "social conventions?" It's like parents who take their kids to restaurants and let them run around. Their reasoning is "they are just kids, they don't know any better." Ok, so when do you think you might want to teach them?

(in reply to SweetCheri)

Post #: 51

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 6:51:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe

quote:

The judge said it was distracting and inappropriate.

The judge didn't even know about it until the bailiff called his attention to it. Had the bailiff said nothing, she would have finished nursing her baby with noone the wiser.

Yes - look at the video, which has a re-creation that implies that the baby was under a blanket, in which case the bailiff couldn't even see the baby, let alone a breast. And he wasn't sure, as shown by his repeated questioning, "Are you breastfeeding? Are you breastfeeding?!?"

I spent a lot of time sitting in a munie courtroom this summer waiting for a family member's case to be called. There was a lot of quiet commotion and confusion. A woman sitting in the back breastfeeding with her baby under a blanket would not have been a distraction. It wasn't the act itself, but that a breast was involved.

If it had been me and I was in the courtroom I'd visited, I would have notified the bailiff that I was stepping out, and would have fed my child on the bench in the hall. But I don't fault the woman for staying in her courtroom. I fault society for turning the act of a mother feeding her child into "distracting and inappropriate."

Yes, please let's look at the video. There is a two second shot of the woman feeding her child, no "re-enactment."

Municipal court is not nearly the same as Superior or District court. Municipal court is a circus to be honest. They are hearing a hundred or so cases EACH time court occurs, which is not daily in most places. Last time I was in municipal court there were NINETY FIVE cases on the calendar for that day.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 52

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 7:04:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Thank you for explaining appeals. However, I have and will continue to file appeals when the judge is acting inappropriately, and like a jerk, if I believe it prejudices my client. Denying someone access to the courtroom is abuse of discretion, and can be appealed.

There are more than enough cases where a defendant has been distracting enough, the judge has had them removed and they watched via closed circuit television. No prejudice involved.

Also, did you watch the video? Better yet, did you pay attention? It was a closed courtroom. She was asked to leave not simply because she was breastfeeding, but because she was not a party to the case, but a witness. So the whole "denying someone access" didn't happen.

quote:

Fortunately, judges in my County would not behave in such a manner. If family law courts don't want people bringing their kids to court, then the courthouse needs to be prepared to provide childcare. It is that simple. Someone can't be denied justice just because they can't find a babysitter.

What planet do you live on? The court doesn't care if you don't have transportation to get to court, why should they be bothered about your childcare issues? It isn't like anyone is told the day before, they receive plenty of notice. It is the party's case to make appropriate arrangements. On those occasions when it was completely unavoidable in Family Court, the court has asked the parents to wait outside with their child, and has been helpful WHILE their particular appearance was occurring.

quote:

Honestly, having sat through a few hundred dockets in my life, and seeing the hubbub and noise (these aren't dignified procedures), I have trouble believing the wheels of justice will grind to a halt if a mother discreetly feeds her baby. In fact, I would expect her to do so. I don't mean jerking out a tit for all the world to see, but beneath a towel or blanket, I can't imagine what the problem is.

They are not full of hubbub and noise on the East coast, I can assure you. When that judge is on the bench, people aren't making noise.

quote:

People are intimidated and made nervous by the courts. It is wrong for a judge to take action to deny anyone, including (gasp) a nursing mother, access to the courtroom. It just might not be as easy as some suppose to fight your way to the front of the courtroom (with a screaming baby) and let the clerk know you were leaving, so when your case was called, when you wouldn't be declared a failure to appear. And then, where the hell are you supposed to go? Is it less distracting to nurse in the hallway? More and more people are appearing pro se now, because they can't afford counsel. The courtrooms need to be made more user friendly, not less.
Only in America do we supposedly revere motherhood, but make it so hard to be a mother. What could possibly be shameful about a mother providing care for her child?

When did the judge deny access? She was told to wait outside until her testimony was needed. She wasn't a party to the case, so she had no need to sit in the court room at all. A judge can close a court room any time he/she feels like it, especially in Family Law cases.

People are so intimidated, they show up in bootie shorts and sandals, or guys with tank tops and baseball hats. Yea, sure, I'm going to buy that.

It isn't nearly as difficult as you are trying to make it out to be to get the attention of the BAILIFF, not the clerk and notify them of the situation. Especially in a closed courtroom, which is what this was.

Don't play like this was the calendar call and she was risking being marked not present. It's a crock you are reaching for to support your theories. It ain't flying.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 53

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 7:16:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia

Stepping into a hallway maybe full of burglars, drug dealers, guys that stab each other in dark alleys...yep, just the place I'd want to be breastfeeding my kid.

Oh please. The burglars, dealers and murderers aren't sitting in the hall way. And if they were, wouldn't that be even more reason to NOT bring your child to such an evironment?

You know, I'm poor as well. Haven't always been, don't know if I always will be. However, being poor doesn't mean intentionally acting like an ass, which you admitted you would do in a court room in regards to how you dress. If you are poor, that doesn't mean you don't have anything appropriate. No one thinks a person should go out and buy a $300 suit. It does mean that you don't wear bootie shorts, a tube top and hooker heels. Is that a difficult concept? Those wouldn't be appropriate in church either. And NO ONE owns nothing but that. It isn't all that difficult to cover up and not wear a t-shirt with an obnoxious statement on it.

Most people (yea, most) would have the sense to not wear a t-shirt with a swastika, marijuana leaf or rebel flag to court. Why? Because they know the judge will have a hard time with their credibility if they do. But they have no problem wearing something with a statement about the "village idiot?"

Years ago, along with hiding our disabled, which I agree was not a good thing, people had some respect. Respect for others, and the environments they were in. Now? Everyone thinks respect is something others should be showing them before they even THINK about being respectful. For most young people, including this mother, the world revolves around her and her baby. Guess what? Yes, her world needs to revolve around her baby. The judge's world does not revolve around her baby or the baby's needs and doesn't have to.

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Post #: 54

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 7:21:24 AM

Iamsemisweet

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Actually, it doesn't sound like the judge was necessarily even aware of what was going on, although he is trying to support the bailiff.

You are right, this was not a docket, and I was responding to the question generally. However, I see even less justification for asking her to leave if it was a closed courtroom. Who exactly was she distracting and bothering? From the video (which I finally got to work) the judge only seemed to become involved after the fact. The bailiff apparently took it upon himself to do this. If he had to ask her if she was breastfeeding, she must have been being fairly discreet about it. I would imagine feeding out in the hallway or outside would be even more distracting and uncomfortable.
Exclusion of witnesses in a trial is actually a big deal. While we typically exclude witnesses until after they testify, apparently this wasn't the case here, if she was waiting to testify. I would consider excluding a witness for one side, and not excluding all witnesses, to be appealable error. I also thought it was interesting that the State apparently has a law allowing breast feeding in public (big of them) the question is whether it applies in courtrooms. If it does, I imagine the judge will have some issues. By the way, I did not see in the video where they showed the actual incident.

If she was a witness, she may have been subpoenaed into court. That can happen at fairly short notice. She wasn't availing herself of the court, if she was only a witness, why should she pay for a baby sitter?

Courtrooms are public places. They need to accommodate the public. The public can include nursing mothers. Good for her for not taking this quietly. LL, evidently East Coast State courtrooms are WAY different than the ones here. Quiet and decorous, they are not. Tonya Harding used to get hauled into court here for one reason or another every so often. The word "zoo" does not begin to describe it. And yet justice went on.

On to the dress issue. Personally, I think wearing some T shirt with an obscene slogan ( I have seen that too) is far more disrespectful and distracting, although I don't think I have ever seen a judge call someone out on it. Doesn't mean they don't take it into consideration when making a decision. Being "poor" is no excuse for being slovenly and acting in poor taste. I don't want to be assaulted visually by someone wearing too short shorts or a Tshirt with obscene words on it, and I am generally not all that subtle with my contempt. Don't expect to be treated with courtesy when you are discourteous yourself. Clothes at Goodwill are cheap, so being "poor" is only an excuse.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 11/15/2011 7:49:11 AM >

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Post #: 55

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 7:43:21 AM

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Ok, seriously, what's with the poetry-esque type-style? Are you here via cell phone or what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
I understand the issue.

You might, but you're not demonstrating that by bringing up every potential hypothetical situation you can possibly think of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
You assume that when the bailiff would
go and retrieve her or another nursing
mother she would be through nursing or
could stop.

No, I assumed nothing. The difference would be, however, that when it was her turn, it was her turn and the only person that would need to be concerned with her being a distraction would be her and the judge. In other words, since it would be her case that was being heard, there'd be no other case that could be disrupted, only hers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
I was also addressing the hypocritical,
hysterical reactions to breastfeeding.
There's nothing indecent about nursing
a baby. It would not bother me if a mother
nursed her baby in court, in church, in a
shop or a restaurant.

That's great so long as you understand and agree that you don't speak for everyone. I worked in a restaurant as a waiter once and watched as a coworker (whose pay was dependend upon his ability to do his job adequately) stumbled and averted his gaze in every direction but the person at the table because she was sitting there breast feeding. In this society, there are two sets of people singing their chorus. The first group believes, apparently, that a person should be able to do whatever they like, wherever they like with no consequences. The other group believes in similar freedom, but for everyone. In other words, something *you* do should not affect, nor hinder something *I* want to do.

Suppose (since you like hypotheticals) that the people with the breast-feeding woman in the restaurant got offended that my coworker had such trouble doing his job upon witnessing the act. If they complained to the manager, this kid could lose his job all because he's never faced such a situation before and didn't know how to react. Is that fair? No. It's not.

There was a time in our society when a mother did what was best for her child. She didn't tote the thing around like a miniature-poodle-in-a-bag-style fashion statement. Is it healthy for the kid to be toted around non-stop all day? Or would a stable day in the relative safety of the home/crib be better? The problem today is that mothers don't alter their schedule to accommodate their child. They expect the child to conform to their plans and schedules. Kids, especially the very young breast-feeding ones, do not belong in some places -- movie theaters, crowded restaurants, courtrooms, etc. Why should I pay the same $9+ as you to see a movie only to listen to your screaming kid for 2 hours? When I have to abide by the rules of decorum in a courtroom so as not to bother other defendants, should a mother gets a pass because she couldn't manage to find someone to watch her kid for a couple of hours? Should I really have to listen to a kid throwing a tantrum while all I wanted was a nice quiet dinner in a nice restaurant?

The answer to all those rhetorical questions is "no." Your freedom to do as you please stops the moment you infringe on my freedoms not to be bothered by your screaming child.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
If it offends you
don't look.

This same sentiment could be said to a mother who freaks out upon seeing a guy wearing a "Fuck you" t-shirt while out with her kids. If she's offended, she shouldn't look. Yet I've heard more than one instance of a mother making a stink over a shirt she found offensive to her kids.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
And back to the court thing
being a nursing mother doesn't make you
a second class citizen.

True. But not having a child and not wanting to be bothered by them doesn't make me a second-class citizen either. My rights are no less important and I don't want to be bothered by a screaming kid in places where I have to be or where I paid money to be.

(in reply to Winterapple)

Post #: 56

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 7:47:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Oh please. The burglars, dealers and murderers aren't sitting in the hall way. And if they were, wouldn't that be even more reason to NOT bring your child to such an evironment?

You know, I'm poor as well. Haven't always been, don't know if I always will be. However, being poor doesn't mean intentionally acting like an ass, which you admitted you would do in a court room in regards to how you dress. If you are poor, that doesn't mean you don't have anything appropriate. No one thinks a person should go out and buy a $300 suit. It does mean that you don't wear bootie shorts, a tube top and hooker heels. Is that a difficult concept? Those wouldn't be appropriate in church either. And NO ONE owns nothing but that. It isn't all that difficult to cover up and not wear a t-shirt with an obnoxious statement on it.

Most people (yea, most) would have the sense to not wear a t-shirt with a swastika, marijuana leaf or rebel flag to court. Why? Because they know the judge will have a hard time with their credibility if they do. But they have no problem wearing something with a statement about the "village idiot?"

Years ago, along with hiding our disabled, which I agree was not a good thing, people had some respect. Respect for others, and the environments they were in. Now? Everyone thinks respect is something others should be showing them before they even THINK about being respectful. For most young people, including this mother, the world revolves around her and her baby. Guess what? Yes, her world needs to revolve around her baby. The judge's world does not revolve around her baby or the baby's needs and doesn't have to.

Very well said. (Be ready for the flak you take for having me agree with you.)

As a caveat to the murders and rapists BS. I think any mother who'd willingly place her child in such close quarters with those individuals needs to have CPS take the child away. As you pointed out, in standard municipal courts, murders and rapists aren't just "roaming the halls." And if a mother finds herself surrounded by murderers and rapists, chances are she's "in" for a lot more than a traffic ticket or a family court case and shouldn't have her child anyway.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 57

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 7:55:34 AM

SweetCheri

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quote:

Be ready for the flak you take for having me agree with you.

Nobody actually cares what you say or who you agree with, you are an irrelevancy among irrelevancies.

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Post #: 58

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 7:55:53 AM

Iamsemisweet

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What a dumb ass thing to say. You lose your kid if you find yourself surrounded by criminals? If you get subpoenaed into court, you go. It doesn't matter if there is a murder trial, or drug court going on in the next court room. You go, or you end up in jail. This wasn't muni court, this was some level of state court since they were hearing family law cases. If you are a witness, you are not "in" for anything. And there are generally multiple courtrooms and multiple legal matters going on. You don't get to decide that you only want to go to court on the days "nice" people are there. Murderers and rapists roam the halls all the time, you aren't naive enough to think they are all in jail, are you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As a caveat to the murders and rapists BS. I think any mother who'd willingly place her child in such close quarters with those individuals needs to have CPS take the child away. As you pointed out, in standard municipal courts, murders and rapists aren't just "roaming the halls." And if a mother finds herself surrounded by murderers and rapists, chances are she's "in" for a lot more than a traffic ticket or a family court case and shouldn't have her child anyway.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 11/15/2011 7:56:42 AM >

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The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Post #: 59

RE: Breastfeeding In Court? - 11/15/2011 8:00:45 AM

BBBTBW

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I breastfed my daughter in the park, on the bus and in many public places. This was 26 years ago. I discretely covered her and myself up with a blanket and she ate to her hearts content. I have no problem with anyone breastfeeding their children in public. It is a normal, natural thing. Sure show a little decorum about yourself and put a lite blanket over you and your child but those of you that are offended...get over yourselves.

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