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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 3:50:29 PM   
FrostedFlake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
I have said before and now say again, if religion were a form of learning instead of a form of politics, theologians would travel the world to talk to one another. To share ideas, thoughts and facts. To come together to collectively enjoy the knowledge contributed by each.

I bolded to active phrase. I hope you can see it now.


It's not only possible but probable that I'm misunderstanding some of what you're saying as words are an imperfect vehicle by which to convey meaning. However, please consider that this is also true for yourself, it's not only possible but probable that to some extent you are misunderstanding me.

My point is that it's irrelevant whether a religion was based on learning, politics or picking ideas out of a hat. The moment faith gets involved you have a problem. Faith retards the accumulation and spread of knowledge. You seem to be aware of the issue in certain forms of faith but not in your own, I set up the juxtaposition in an endeavor to point out that your own faith isn't a special exception, it has the same problem. 



It is now clear that the mistake you made is assuming I have faith. I don't. I am agnostic.

Not knowing is not the empty, sterile philosophy many suppose. There is before me the entire sweep of human history. I absorb what I can. I assemble working hypotheses. I discard them for any reason at all. I take nothing on faith. What I have learned is that I don't know and you do too. Nevertheless, I find in the arrow of time ample evidence for an instance of initiation. This does not imply, it demands, an initiator. Of some sort. But the supposition that someone knows what sort is just wrong. For there is no means to inquire. Thus : Faith.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 4:09:41 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

The problem of inifnate regression is not a scientific one, it is a rational one.  If everything must have a cause, god must.  If everything does not need a cause, there is no need for a 'god' creator. 



You continually make the same error in applying space/time to that which, by definition as creator of said space/time, resides outside. Applying rules of that which was created to the creator is error pure and simple. You assume to evidence (argument) unsupported by the very rational thought you claim too. You apply the rules of space/time to that which is not. Assuming space/time had a beginning, then there exists that which is other than space/time.

Put another way, if god, who by definition resides outside (realm;spiritual) of space/time, does not need a creator then on what evidence or argument can anyone say that space/time does not either?

Assuming god and by classical definition the spiritual realm, what actual knowledge of the spiritual realm do we have that you may rise to such assumption(s)?




< Message edited by Yachtie -- 2/5/2012 4:24:54 PM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 6:22:51 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
I take nothing on faith.


Which is why you do not believe. Suppose I was holding the proof of God's existence in my right hand. Suppose it was not a bottle of Amstel. I feel that it is ironic that it comes from Holland. There is a pretty female that kind of likes me from Holland. The bottle was a gift from my mom. To me this is good proof that there is a God, a sign from Heaven that perhaps she is the one. FrostedFlake you tempt me. If I shared with you all the mysteries of the universe, would you believe? More likely you would accuse me of being drunk. Yet I have consumed only one 12 ounce bottle of Amstel.

Did it not occur to you that the knowledge you seek is Divine Knowledge? It is forbidden to you.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 12:11:05 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Actually, there is no debate. The question embeds a category error. The divine is predicated as being eternal, i.e., existing independently of time. Only things IN time have a "beginning" (and an end).

Another horrible example of defining the question to obtain the answer you want. Since matter/energy cannot be destroyed why can't nature/existence be eternal?

Another mind-reader. It has nothing to do with getting the answer I want, and I never said that existence can't be eternal. It is simply a fact that expressions like "the beginning" and "the end" are temporally conditioned. To speak of a "beginning" or an "end" predicates a time frame. You cannot logically formulate a question (or a debate) about the "beginning" of something that is by definition unconstrained by time, i.e., eternal, because that which is eternal is by definition without beginning or end; not temporal.

K.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 12:13:26 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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Status: offline 		Clapton is God.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 12:19:06 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Actually, there is no debate. The question embeds a category error. The divine is predicated as being eternal, i.e., existing independently of time. Only things IN time have a "beginning" (and an end).

Another horrible example of defining the question to obtain the answer you want. Since matter/energy cannot be destroyed why can't nature/existence be eternal?

Another mind-reader. It has nothing to do with getting the answer I want, and I never said that existence can't be eternal. It is simply a fact that expressions like "the beginning" and "the end" are temporally conditioned. To speak of a "beginning" or an "end" predicates a time frame. You cannot logically formulate a question (or a debate) about the "beginning" of something that is by definition unconstrained by time, i.e., eternal, because that which is eternal is by definition without beginning or end; not temporal.

K.
Man, this logic stuff is some hard shit. Are you, like, from Vulcan? I can't wait until shop class. I'm makin' this, like, huge ass bong.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 12:42:14 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I never claimed science has all the answers, but there is nothing that prevents science from one day have all the answers to intelligible questions about the nature of the universe

So, questions about the nature of the universe for which science cannot provide an answer are to be dismissed as not "intelligible"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
If everything must have a cause, god must. If everything does not need a cause, there is no need for a 'god' creator... As I said, turtles.

No, it's not turtles all the way down. In fact, the whole notion of causality is deeply problematic. It works nicely enough when you break something open and play with discrete parts in isolation. But the more we learn, the more we are coming to realize that everything is deeply embedded in an infinitely complex system of inter-related processes wherein everything that happens is causally related in greater or lesser degree to everything else. The quaint notion that things have to have specific and isolatable causes has been evaporating for a long time now.

K.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 12:55:19 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I never claimed science has all the answers, but there is nothing that prevents science from one day have all the answers to intelligible questions about the nature of the universe

So, questions about the nature of the universe for which science cannot provide an answer are to be dismissed as not "intelligible"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
If everything must have a cause, god must. If everything does not need a cause, there is no need for a 'god' creator... As I said, turtles.

No, it's not turtles all the way down. In fact, the whole notion of causality is deeply problematic. It works nicely enough when you break something open and play with discrete parts in isolation. But the more we learn, the more we are coming to realize that everything is deeply embedded in an infinitely complex system of inter-related processes wherein everything that happens is causally related in greater or lesser degree to everything else. The quaint notion that things have to have specific and isolatable causes has been evaporating for a long time now.

K.


I don't think that anyone as ever seriously claimed that everything has specific and isolatable causes in the sense that it is possible to isolate them today. Nor do I think that the notion that things have to have specific and theoretically isolatable causes is showing much sign of being either "quaint" or subject to evaporation. The whole goal of science is to isolate and specify the cause of things, surely?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 1:08:35 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

The whole goal of science is to isolate and specify the cause of things, surely?

No, that's the pharmaceutical industry.

The goal of science is to understand the natural world.

K.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 1:40:51 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The goal of science is to understand the natural world.

K.[/font][/size]


Well, we seem to agree on that, unless your definition of "understand" is very different to mine.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 2:07:58 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Clapton is God.



He was (until Joe Satriani came along).



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 2:24:00 AM   
FrostedFlake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Clapton is God.



He was (until Joe Satriani came along).



Peace and comfort,



Michael

You both make a pretty good case.

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Frosted Flake
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 3:03:32 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		Actually, I'm not a scientist but, I have some interests in certain scientific fields. I am going to pose something that I believe, whole-heartedly and I wonder if I can get some acceptance.

Science is, essentially, a search to answer certain basic questions? "Who am I?" "Why am I here?" "Is this what life is all about?".

I think that there are plenty of people that would admit that these sound like the questions we might ask "God", if we were ever introduced to a person as that entity.

I really and truly believe that one day, science will bring us to "God". I believe that someday, science will not only prove the existence of this entity but that it will help us gain a major amount of understanding of "God".

I know to the scientific, that may seem simplistic and to the religious, it might seem sacreligious but, this is what I believe.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 3:15:38 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Science is, essentially, a search to answer certain basic questions? "Who am I?" "Why am I here?" "Is this what life is all about?".


Isn't this more a definition of philosophy?

To me science is a search to answer questions like "how does this work?"

quote:


I really and truly believe that one day, science will bring us to "God". I believe that someday, science will not only prove the existence of this entity but that it will help us gain a major amount of understanding of "God".

I know to the scientific, that may seem simplistic and to the religious, it might seem sacreligious but, this is what I believe.



I don't disagree completely with this - sure, instinctively I believe that there's something supernatural out there that kicked things off, whether it's a benign bearded white dude in a long white nightdress is another question altogether !

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 3:23:29 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Science is, essentially, a search to answer certain basic questions? "Who am I?" "Why am I here?" "Is this what life is all about?".


Isn't this more a definition of philosophy?

To me science is a search to answer questions like "how does this work?"



I'll acquiesce to a small beat-down for that but, I would argue this: Do you believe psychology is a science (I ask because there are some that do not believe it is; not to be snarky)?

If you believe psychology is a science, surely those questions are touched upon because they are at the core of human self-exploration. No?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/6/2012 3:24:34 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 3:30:00 AM   
crazyml


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Status: offline 		Hey DS, I wasn't intended to beat ya down man, just makin a point!

Do I believe that psychology is a science?... I suppose I do (with a little vestigial reluctance), but I don't think that psychology is a search to answer the basic questions "Who am I?" "Why am I here?" "Is this what life is all about?". I think it's a search to answer "why do people behave the way they do?"



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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 3:39:31 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Hey DS, I wasn't intended to beat ya down man, just makin a point!

Do I believe that psychology is a science?... I suppose I do (with a little vestigial reluctance), but I don't think that psychology is a search to answer the basic questions "Who am I?" "Why am I here?" "Is this what life is all about?". I think it's a search to answer "why do people behave the way they do?"



Well, yes but to the person involved in their own therapy (surely a participant in the science by way of being a subject?), those are essentially the questions they're asking. "Who am I?" could easily be: "Why do I ... (I don't know) ... always choose the wrong partners?" or: "What is it about me that makes me want to run and scream like a little school girl, when I see a spider (phobias)?" To make it even more personal: "Why do I keep reliving one incident, over and over instead of sleeping, at night?" I think "Who am I?" and "What's wrong with me?" are essentially the same questions. It just depends upon an optomistic or pessimistic starting point.

I think the questions correlate very well and while I think that (most) therapists are in it to help people, I think in all "help" there's a certain element of self-service. So, their study and practice of the science is - if not a personal search - a "search" to help mankind reach the answers to those questions

I know you weren't issuing a beat-down. That's just the way I chose to characterize it. I told you: You're a good egg (and I can take a fair amount of snark, as you've already seen).



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/6/2012 3:44:30 AM >

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 3:44:51 AM   
crazyml


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Status: offline 		Wait a second... I'll reluctantly concede that Psychology is a science, but "Therapy", nah - that's no more a "science" than .... a fridge is ;-)

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 3:50:05 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Wait a second... I'll reluctantly concede that Psychology is a science, but "Therapy", nah - that's no more a "science" than .... a fridge is ;-)


Psychoanalysis is not the residue of psychology? It's not why a good portion of people study pyshology in the first place? Isn't Psychology" the roadmap to psychoanalytic therapy?

Mind you; I'm not saying some modes of "therapy" aren't total crap but therapy, at its base, is guided by (and a result of) the study of psychology. No?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 5:03:20 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
My favorite was the atheist of my aquaintance who called for anyone who was not an atheist to be institutionalized in a mental hospital since not being an atheist was clearly a sign of mental deficiency/mental illness.

That sounds like a pretty dumb position, sure he was actually advocating that and nothing got lost in translation?
He was a new convert to non-religion/atheism - and many new converts to a belief system tend to be over-zealous. (yes IMO atheism IS a belief system, just like religion is a belief system. Neither are "fact" based)

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 2/6/2012 5:09:02 AM >

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