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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 5:35:46 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
(Edit : this includes atheism. Atheism is a much a religion as any other. It is a belief system.)

This is an inaccurate claim which is often used in anti-atheist propaganda.


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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 6:02:45 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Without a scientific reason, they do not have any belief/faith.

There are a number of things I could get bogged down in on that post, I'm going to ignore them for the moment and simply point out that people for whom the above is true still wouldn't have faith (according to your definition of the word) with a scientific reason. I think we're in agreement there.



< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/5/2012 6:09:44 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 6:10:08 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
(Edit : this includes atheism. Atheism is a much a religion as any other. It is a belief system.)

This is an inaccurate claim which is often used in anti-atheist propaganda.





By absolute strict definition I tend to agree with derSteel, but I would also note that most atheists are science fetishists and their narrowed view adherence to science is quite akin to religion in its fervor.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 6:13:21 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Oh please, how many times on these boards has it been said that someone who believes is crazy?

But isn't there quite a bit of difference between using the word crazy in the colloquial sense and actually advocating hospitalization for the majority of the population?
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So, yes, I can see the thought of mental hospitals in some peoples' minds.







Attachment (1)

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 7:29:31 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
I never claimed to prove there isn't a 'god'. I can prove withing reason there is no Christian god as understood by mainstream Christian theology with posits a beneficent, omnipotent, omniscient god.

Keep in mind that the mainstream Christian concept of a god includes there being a benefit to being Christian (God answers prayers). Any concept of god that interacts with reality most certainly is not "a matter of faith", it falls within the purvue of science. Such concepts are testable and do fail.



Yes I said I agree with that.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 7:38:20 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
Yet. The mere existence of God is undoubtable.

Reality Fail.

Plenty of people doubt the existence of God therefor by definition it is doubtable.



You seem not to have read the entire post. Let me cut it down to the essentials for you.

quote:

The existence of a creator is demonstrated by the existence of creation. Even if it was random chance, Those dice came from somewhere, somehow at some point got rolled and got got rolled some where. Take it back as far as you want. SOMETHING created the universe. It is the nature of and not the existence of the creator that is subject to debate and to definition and thus, if one is to derive a definition of deity, because it is intrinsically unknowable, faith is a requirement. In fact, there is no requirement BUT faith.



It is amazing how few are grasping the problem of infinite regression.  If existence requires creation why does the creator not require creation.  Just to say I want to stop regressing with 'god' does not address the problem.  If something can not come from nothing, how can 'god', a great something', come from nothing.  Obviously, the existence of a creator is subject to debate.  It is debated all the time.  It seems many want to assume for no great reason that non existence is the normative state being (yes a silly phrase that illustrate the problem), and that existence is abnormal and needs to be explained by agency or creation.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 7:42:49 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: shylilbear

Isn't debating whether or not God came first, or if He Himself was created...

Actually, there is no debate. The question embeds a category error. The divine is predicated as being eternal, i.e., existing independently of time. Only things IN time have a "beginning" (and an end).

K.

Another horrible example of defining the question to obtain the answer you want.  Since matter/energy cannot be destroyed why can't nature/existence be eternal?



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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 7:43:47 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Oh please, how many times on these boards has it been said that someone who believes is crazy?

But isn't there quite a bit of difference between using the word crazy in the colloquial sense and actually advocating hospitalization for the majority of the population?
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So, yes, I can see the thought of mental hospitals in some peoples' minds.








Thats because you did not read the comments from the last link. Had you, you would have seen that people actually posted....

Is religious faith a mental disorder?

Yep build more loony bins, keep the rest of us safe from those drooling madmen.

It is symptomatic of schizophrenia.

Thus, not a strawman, as proof of others who hold that belief was given.

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(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 7:44:30 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
(Edit : this includes atheism. Atheism is a much a religion as any other. It is a belief system.)

This is an inaccurate claim which is often used in anti-atheist propaganda.




See Bill Mahr's brilliant evisceration of that idea.  Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex postion.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 7:44:35 AM   
MasterCord


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Status: offline 		The beauty of the question posed, is that unlike many things in life, ALL of us WILL one day know the answer to this question.

Every single spiritual/human being on the planet will be given an answer they can comprehend. Every simple, carbon based lifeform without a spiritual component, won't have a need to know.

MC

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 7:51:41 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

It is amazing how few are grasping the problem of infinite regression. 



Infinite regression is only problematic where one cannot conceptually get outside of Space/Time. I'd posit that science is not pushing you further but holding you back.


Science does not have all the answers and if you hold that it does, welcome to your religion.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 2/5/2012 7:57:09 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 8:06:30 AM   
dovie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Why do people assume that nonexistance is the normative state and that existance requires some typ of agency. Moreover, if that is the case and 'god' exists what great power created 'god' It is turtles all the way down.


Why turtles all the way down? The physical universe can be summed up via math, chemistry, physics, biology, etc. Most people understand God within the realm of Spirit. Spirit, by any understanding, is more akin to ~love than math, physics, chemistry, etc. I'll bet no one here would state categorically that love does not exist, yet one cannot quantify it via math, chemistry, physics, etc.

You ask this question -

The general belief still begs the question dramatically. If God does not need a first cause (creator), why does emergy/matter need one?

Ok, let's say energy/matter need no first cause. Does that answer the question of whether it was created? No. Now you could leap to Occam's Razor, but that is purely argumentative and of no real value as to what is or is not. Just because X is not required does not negate the existence of X. Now, which way is science pointing? Created, i.e big bang, or no beginning at all?

One point here, within context. Can science currently state without reservation that Y is, given the amount of (self?) correction it goes through on a daily basis?

edit: To really get into God's existence, is it of necessity to go to other evidence than that which science can provide?



I think I love you.

dovie

< Message edited by dovie -- 2/5/2012 8:32:03 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 8:07:36 AM   
dovie


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Status: offline 		And..there is a God.

dovie

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 8:21:51 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCord

The beauty of the question posed, is that unlike many things in life, ALL of us WILL one day know the answer to this question.


Why?   If there's life after death, you'll know it.  But if there's no life after death, you won't know one way or the other, because you won't be in a position to know anything at all. 

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 2/5/2012 8:25:07 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 8:25:02 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
By absolute strict definition I tend to agree with derSteel, but I would also note that most atheists are science fetishists and their narrowed view adherence to science is quite akin to religion in its fervor.


I sort of agree. Atheism is neither a belief system nor a religion, that should appear pretty straight forward if we look at it's counterpart theism. I suspect that we can all agree that the statement "theism is a religion" is nonsensical, the same is true of atheism.

Theism and atheism are positions on single topic that people can be grouped into according to their world views. Now some do end up in the atheist category because of their religion, Raelians for example. However, others end up as atheists simply because they have noticed the issue with granting a certain hypothesis on cosmology a special exception.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 9:10:29 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
I have said before and now say again, if religion were a form of learning instead of a form of politics, theologians would travel the world to talk to one another. To share ideas, thoughts and facts. To come together to collectively enjoy the knowledge contributed by each.

I bolded to active phrase. I hope you can see it now.


It's not only possible but probable that I'm misunderstanding some of what you're saying as words are an imperfect vehicle by which to convey meaning. However, please consider that this is also true for yourself, it's not only possible but probable that to some extent you are misunderstanding me.

My point is that it's irrelevant whether a religion was based on learning, politics or picking ideas out of a hat. The moment faith gets involved you have a problem. Faith retards the accumulation and spread of knowledge. You seem to be aware of the issue in certain forms of faith but not in your own, I set up the juxtaposition in an endeavor to point out that your own faith isn't a special exception, it has the same problem. 

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 10:08:00 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
(Edit : this includes atheism. Atheism is a much a religion as any other. It is a belief system.)

This is an inaccurate claim which is often used in anti-atheist propaganda.




See Bill Mahr's brilliant evisceration of that idea.  Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex postion.



Thank you, Patrick.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 10:13:55 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

It is amazing how few are grasping the problem of infinite regression. 



Infinite regression is only problematic where one cannot conceptually get outside of Space/Time. I'd posit that science is not pushing you further but holding you back.


Science does not have all the answers and if you hold that it does, welcome to your religion.



I never claimed science has all the answers, but there is nothing that prevents science from one day have all the answers to intelligible questions concerning the nature of the universe.  I do not believe that the purview of science is all encompassing and think it is definitely over applied to questions of morality (the elocutionary psychologists are very guilty of this).  Most of the objections to religion I have discussed here are not scientific since people are not making particular claims about the nature of 'god', rather they are rational in that they posit philosophical issues.  The problem of inifnate regression is not a scientific one, it is a rational one.  If everything must have a cause, god must.  If everything does not need a cause, there is no need for a 'god' creator.  Science and history are useful for attacking certain religious claims (generally those of fundamentalists), but this has been a different discussion.  As I said, turtles. 



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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 10:33:04 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: shylilbear

Isn't debating whether or not God came first, or if He Himself was created...

Actually, there is no debate. The question embeds a category error. The divine is predicated as being eternal, i.e., existing independently of time. Only things IN time have a "beginning" (and an end).
K.





Unless of course there is no end to time. Some physicists/cosmologists assert that our Universe is expanding at accelerating speeds due to the influence of dark energy. Eventually, if humankind survives long enough, all other galaxies will be beyond detection. The earth bound cosmologists of that future time will look out into the skies with their instruments and see nothing. The Milky Way Galaxy will seem to be alone in the Universe. It will be the Universe for all practical purposes. Humankind of the future will be ignorant of the existence of other galaxies and stars until one day, in my imagination, they come upon some ancient "scrolls" from the time when stars/galaxies were visible.

See Lawrence Krauss lecture here

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/5/2012 3:26:14 PM   
FrostedFlake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
Yet. The mere existence of God is undoubtable.

Reality Fail.

Plenty of people doubt the existence of God therefor by definition it is doubtable.



You seem not to have read the entire post. Let me cut it down to the essentials for you.

quote:

The existence of a creator is demonstrated by the existence of creation. Even if it was random chance, Those dice came from somewhere, somehow at some point got rolled and got got rolled some where. Take it back as far as you want. SOMETHING created the universe. It is the nature of and not the existence of the creator that is subject to debate and to definition and thus, if one is to derive a definition of deity, because it is intrinsically unknowable, faith is a requirement. In fact, there is no requirement BUT faith.



It is amazing how few are grasping the problem of infinite regression.  If existence requires creation why does the creator not require creation.  Just to say I want to stop regressing with 'god' does not address the problem.  If something can not come from nothing, how can 'god', a great something', come from nothing.  Obviously, the existence of a creator is subject to debate.  It is debated all the time.  It seems many want to assume for no great reason that non existence is the normative state being (yes a silly phrase that illustrate the problem), and that existence is abnormal and needs to be explained by agency or creation.


You misunderstand what I said.

I didn't say that God created the universe. I said the universe was created. And that whatever created it is God. God is not the first cause, the first cause is God. Is the word, God, too polluted with rhetoric to use in this way? Take a step back and look hard at two questions.

a/ What is the nature of God?

b/ How the fuck would anyone know?

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