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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 5:08:41 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Isn't this more a definition of philosophy?

To me science is a search to answer questions like "how does this work?"


Your definition is pretty limiting, I think. This one from the Wiki article on cosmology is more broad in scope and intent:

Cosmology is the discipline that deals with the nature of the Universe as a whole. Cosmologists seek to understand the origin, evolution, structure, and ultimate fate of the Universe at large, as well as the natural laws that keep it in order. [1] Modern cosmology is dominated by the Big Bang theory, which brings together observational astronomy and particle physics.[2]

(in reply to crazyml)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 5:12:24 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I never claimed science has all the answers, but there is nothing that prevents science from one day have all the answers to intelligible questions about the nature of the universe

So, questions about the nature of the universe for which science cannot provide an answer are to be dismissed as not "intelligible"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
If everything must have a cause, god must. If everything does not need a cause, there is no need for a 'god' creator... As I said, turtles.

No, it's not turtles all the way down. In fact, the whole notion of causality is deeply problematic. It works nicely enough when you break something open and play with discrete parts in isolation. But the more we learn, the more we are coming to realize that everything is deeply embedded in an infinitely complex system of inter-related processes wherein everything that happens is causally related in greater or lesser degree to everything else. The quaint notion that things have to have specific and isolatable causes has been evaporating for a long time now.

K.



Why questions might be unintelligable. You are missing the point. You may be correct about causality, but if you are then you cannot use a person cannot use a first cause argument to assert god's existence. One it is used, it is cherating intellectually to say oh, it applies to all, but god.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 5:37:00 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trismagistus
"search your heart, you know it to be true."

The problem with this method is that it demonstrably doesn't work. As a civilization we've tried this and for a long time but it just doesn't work. If it did no one would bother with science. I mean can you imagine if all we had to do to gain accurate data was to search our heart, that would be so much more efficient.

Just think about it:

Me: are we causing climate change?
God: yes.

How much easier would that be, no more need for multi-year multi-million dollar studies, we could just know. If anyone had bothered inventing science in such a reality, which I highly doubt they would, we would have immediately tossed that methodology in the dumpster.

Now back in reality land, we use and I advocate using science not because it's a religion but because it's demonstrably the most reliable method we've come up with. We shouldn't pick or cling to science out of faith, as soon as there is a demonstrably better method out there we should toss science in the dumpster and go with the better method. In the mean time we use science because science is what works.

Now, compare that to searching your heart, just in Christianity there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of different denominations and things like geographic location can be used to predict ones religion. On account of all this I submit to you that the reason you feel that your preconceptions are true isn't because human beings have magic Jedi powers.

(in reply to Trismagistus)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 5:46:09 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
God is not the first cause, the first cause is God.

This statement is invalid, the conclusion I draw is that you're changing the definition of God midsentence in order to point out that you're misusing the word. Is that the case?


(in reply to FrostedFlake)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 6:18:09 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
(yes IMO atheism IS a belief system, just like religion is a belief system. Neither are "fact" based)


I've already addressed why that is not the case, by the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I sort of agree. Atheism is neither a belief system nor a religion, that should appear pretty straight forward if we look at it's counterpart theism. I suspect that we can all agree that the statement "theism is a religion" is nonsensical, the same is true of atheism.

Theism and atheism are positions on single topic that people can be grouped into according to their world views. Now some do end up in the atheist category because of their religion, Raelians for example. However, others end up as atheists simply because they have noticed the issue with granting a certain hypothesis on cosmology a special exception.





(in reply to Fightdirecto)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 6:29:03 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySaty
They have this deep-seeded need to abolish any and all belief in anything that may be omnipotent. Why?

Oh, it's not restricted to things that posses omnipotents. Skeptics are opposed to all forms of woo-woo.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 7:48:44 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySaty
They have this deep-seeded need to abolish any and all belief in anything that may be omnipotent. Why?

Oh, it's not restricted to things that posses omnipotents. Skeptics are opposed to all forms of woo-woo.

The post you are quoting was talking about Atheists, and your comment is simply not true in that context. I have socialized and worked with Atheists most of my life. Several of them had a serious interest in ESP, many practiced one or another form of meditation, and a few were engaged in esoteric forms of the martial arts. What you are describing is people who believe in the metaphysical doctrine of Materialism and feel righteous insulting anyone who doesn't share their faith.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/6/2012 8:33:41 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 8:13:52 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trismagistus
"search your heart, you know it to be true."

There are lots of people who lack that mental faculty and consequently will never comprehend the nature and benefit of that ability. They have to rely on crutches like philosophy and law.

(in reply to Trismagistus)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 9:19:56 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trismagistus
"search your heart, you know it to be true."

There are lots of people who lack that mental faculty and consequently will never comprehend the nature and benefit of that ability. They have to rely on crutches like philosophy and law.



HUH???

Following your heart is not a mental faculty. It is an emotional one. Reason is only a crutch in the way one's legs are.

< Message edited by PatrickG38 -- 2/6/2012 9:20:24 AM >

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 9:42:59 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		Actually, I read it as "look within". Clearly, you lack the 'within', otherwise you would have read it the same way as I did. Thank you for ostentatiously demonstrating my point.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 10:30:20 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Actually, I read it as "look within". Clearly, you lack the 'within', otherwise you would have read it the same way as I did. Thank you for ostentatiously demonstrating my point.


When you're 'looking within', how do you know whether you're looking at 'your heart' and not just at whatever part it is inside that holds all your prejudices?  I ask because it can be very damned difficult to see the difference when others do this 'looking within'. 

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 11:36:08 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
When you're 'looking within', how do you know whether you're looking at 'your heart' and not just at whatever part it is inside that holds all your prejudices?  I ask because it can be very damned difficult to see the difference when others do this 'looking within'. 

For me it is easy, as I have no heart. (Or if I do, it is an exceedingly tiny one.)

Actually, most of what is within me, unlike 'normal' people, is what is visible outside.

Consequently, I do not have prejudices.

I do think that American Christians ought to stop having their male offspring circumcised, though, and that public health would benefit from extraditing all physicians. But those are not prejudices.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 11:40:36 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Consequently, I do not have prejudices.

I do think that American Christians ought to stop having their male offspring circumcised, though, and that public health would benefit from extraditing all physicians. But those are not prejudices.




_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 11:55:26 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I once watched a documentary about a South American Indian tribe without a medicine man. The makers inquired "How come?" The chief answered: "We had one, but when a lot of people got very sick he could not cure them. So we ran the fraud out of the village". The chief and his tribe showed no signs of regret about their action.

We can learn something from those wise people!

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 1:44:26 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		...and he wonders why I have him on hide

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 1:50:10 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Once there was a very religious man who took his congregation to a remote place, then had the parents kill their children, then themselves.

We can learn something from those wise people!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 1:51:11 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I would.. but this is entertainment for me when Im bored.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 1:52:50 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
...and he wonders why I have him on hide

No, I do not wonder. I know that it is because you lost every discussion with me without a single exception.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 2:08:30 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
...and he wonders why I have him on hide

No, I do not wonder. I know that it is because you lost every discussion with me without a single exception.


I find this exceedingly hard to believe.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/6/2012 2:26:29 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
HUH???

He's a self proclaimed low IQ super genius who thinks that:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Unicorns are real.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
Following your heart is not a mental faculty. It is an emotional one.

The denial that emotions are part of ones mental faculties makes me kind of twitchy as we're not talking about anything that actually has to do with the heart. Everything we're talking about under "following your heart" is actually occurring in the brain.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
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