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The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 12:43:23 PM   
Privileged


Posts: 49
Joined: 11/8/2009
Status: offline 		I’ll preface my questions by saying I am not a professional domme. However, the abuse and attitude I see pro dommes dealing with is troubling. It seems like men who would benefit the most from a pro session are the most vocal about being anti pro. I’m not talking about those seeking a mutually beneficial relationship. I’m talking about men who are solely seeking their own satisfaction.

I see a lot of “do it because you love/enjoy/want it” statements. In the case of pain enthusiasts, would you really risk serious injury at the hands of an amateur to avoid paying a professional dominant? I would think a pro domme would know best how to provide after care. Is that not an important enough factor in fetish play?

If your aversion to pro sessions goes deeper than “PRO DUMMES R WHORES”, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 12:53:41 PM   
hellionsLight


Posts: 241
Joined: 10/18/2011
From: Kearney, NE
Status: offline
quote:

would you really risk serious injury at the hands of an amateur


Master is far from experienced, but we are learning as we go, and making sure we know risks to any type of 'play' we try that may cause injury.

I think, when you play, you always risk injury, no matter what, so this isn't just about 'pro dommes' and 'amateurs'.


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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 12:59:59 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Privileged

I’ll preface my questions by saying I am not a professional domme. However, the abuse and attitude I see pro dommes dealing with is troubling. It seems like men who would benefit the most from a pro session are the most vocal about being anti pro. I’m not talking about those seeking a mutually beneficial relationship. I’m talking about men who are solely seeking their own satisfaction.

I see a lot of “do it because you love/enjoy/want it” statements. In the case of pain enthusiasts, would you really risk serious injury at the hands of an amateur to avoid paying a professional dominant? I would think a pro domme would know best how to provide after care. Is that not an important enough factor in fetish play?

If your aversion to pro sessions goes deeper than “PRO DUMMES R WHORES”, I’d love to hear your thoughts.



What makes you feel the "Pro" actually knows his or her ass from a hole in the ground?

Anyone can hang out a shingle as a "Professional Dominant". If you don't believe me, just go the other side and do a search for profiles beginning with the word "Princess". There are no certification classes or state licenses. There is no guarantee that you won't end up bound and hemorrhaging or permanently damaged by someone that not only doesn't know what they are doing but doesnt give a shit how you feel as long as they have their $.

If the pro has references, then you can probably trust them but most people don't vet the person who is going to wrap barbed wire around their cock and drip candle wax on it while they cram a Kong Ball up your ass nearly as thoroughly as they would vet a plumber.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 3/22/2012 1:01:11 PM >

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 1:00:22 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		The problem with your assertion is that there aren't any standards that define pro-domming.

Anyone, regardless of experience can claim to be a pro-domme.
Claiming to be a professional is not a guarantee that anyone knows what they are doing or know proper safety methods.



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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 1:00:38 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I've been on these boards for several years now (much of that time under another nick: DaintyDimples).

As a general rule, the attitude toward legitimate prodomees has been very positive. In fact, those who are pro or who have worked as pro, and we have several regular posters who fit this category, are often looked up to for their superior experience and knowledge.

The key word in the above paragraph being legitimate. In the last few years since the economy tanked, CM has been flooded with wannabe dommes who are clearly clueless about BDSM, but would like to use it to make a few bucks. Many of these are out and out scammers, who entice males into talking to them and then send them to a website where they have to pay money to continue the convo.

Others want money to buy a slave or to be relocated. There is a reason why those big red letter about not sending money show up on everyone's email. I would say since I have been on CM, the scammers have increased tenfold, if not more. You used to see one prodomme every week or so advertising on the boards, now it's several every week. I remember one was posed with lamp chain. I mean really, it's not hard to figure out that person is wanting something for nothing and their chicks for free, and sees CM as a place full of potential victims.

There are many desperate male subs on the other side, and if there were not so many, the predators would not be here hunting for prey. It's that simple. Unfortunately, the male subs are the first and quickest (although male doms get scammed too) to be very vocal about their hatred of the pros.

I agree that per my email at least, most of them see fem dommes as fetish delivery devices and not people in the least, and could benefit from some legitimate pro sessions.

It's just highly unlikely they will be able to weed through all the bullshit and find a good pro. They would be far better off to come to this board and ASK.



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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 1:02:04 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Many male subs (and male doms for that matter) are profoundly misogynistic. I think it stems partly from their inability to come to terms with the fact that they want a woman to have so much power over their bodies.

There is a complaint that prodommes are not "real" dommes. This is, in a sense, accurate, for some women. Both the ex prodommes I dated were women I met because they had sub profiles on CM. Also, there are plenty of women who have subs but who are vanilla or submissive with their husband. So if a Real Domme is someone who submits to no man ever, those ladies are rare. I think that complaint is dopey, by the way. When I want to dominate, I want someone who submits to me, and when I want to submit, I want someone who is dominant to me. Most people are more than one thing, depending on the context.

Beyond that complaint, there are longstanding BDSMers who think that the introduction of, say, findommes, is polluting the lifestyle, and true BDSM is not sexual, and not monetary either. I think this is an indication of how much the internet is changing what is meant by BDSM. Who even heard of a Teamviewer fetish five years ago? Certainly no one in a leather family. But that doesn't mean that findomme isn't a form of D/s, because it sure is, or can be. At this point, BDSM is like a restaurant with an enormous menu: choose what you like, and don't waste your time with the rest.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 1:46:28 PM   
Privileged


Posts: 49
Joined: 11/8/2009
Status: offline 		Maybe I should have clarified in my original post: I understand why one wouldn't want to interact with Princess Gimme Gimme. She's not likely to do anything for the sub apart from a fast fleecing. There are plenty of pro dommes who can point potential clients in the direction of proof of their legitimacy and capabilities. I'm not sure that fact has shielded them from the anti army.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 2:08:03 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline 		There have been a lot of findom and prodom discussions on these boards in recent months. Heck, I started one, and quickly discovered the roots of some of my own biases and misguided thoughts. All in all, my newly formed opinion is this: Whatever floats your boat. If you enjoy financial domination or pro sessions, by all means, go for it and enjoy yourself. And if you do your job well and are dedicated to the satisfaction of your clients, by all means, start a career as a findom or prodom.

I think much of the bias against findoms and prodoms exists because truly talented, ethical pro/fin doms are like diamonds in the rough. There are literally hundreds of "Money Princesses" on CM who lack the skills and experience to provide for the client and who don't perform their craft in an ethically sound manner (pre-spending negotiations where appropriate, proper "task" safety procedures, protection of personal info and pictures, etc). If you're an interested male sub looking for a proper fin/pro dom, and all you find is disappointment after financial draining disappointment, eventually your opinion of the whole profession is going to turn sour. Their are good fin and pro doms out there, but the inexperienced may have a hard time separating the wheat from the chaff, and assume that there just isn't any wheat.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 2:29:19 PM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
Status: offline 		I've never had a session with a professional, but I guess I'm "pro pro" (rather than anti pro) in that I think professional domination has its place. If I were single, with money to spare and the desire to experience a specific kink or type of scenario, I would probably consider taking that desire to a professional. However, it wouldn't really be a substitute for having that same experience with someone who was participating not for the money but because her desires were more or less reciprocal to mine. It would just be the next best thing.

My best guess is that the extreme anti pro stance that sometimes crops up on these boards stems from various combinations of frustration at not being able to find someone with reciprocal desires, frustration at not being able to afford a good pro-domme, suspicion (misguided, of course) that all pro-dommes are just greedy scammers, and humiliation at the whole idea of "having to pay for it" as opposed to being able to attract a dominant without having to wave cash around. I have a certain amount of sympathy for those feelings, apart from the thing about pro-dommes always being greedy scammers (which is just ignorance and/or prejudice), but anti pro sentiment seems like the wrong conclusion to draw from them. It would be more productive to channel all that frustration and resentment into efforts to make society more welcoming towards female dominance and sadism.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 2:32:00 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I must have missed the anti army.

Yes, there are those who view legitimate prodomming as prostitution, although most legit pros don't have sex with their clients. It is still illegal (viewed as prostitution) in many states.

I personally have nothing again prodomming or prostitution as a profession. I do have issues with pimps who turn out young girls and get them addicted to drugs so they can deal with turning tricks on the street for a living.

I walk the same fine line when it comes to drug use. That you smoke a joint occasionally does not a junkie make you. I have no issue with casual drug use. I *do* have major issues with the fact that drug dealers these days are bad mojo.

When it comes to pros and the prostitution issue, it's hard (for me at least) to draw black and white moral lines. There are pros who do things I would not do, like ass play, then there are those who do CBT, which I love to do and don't see as being as intimate as intercourse or ass play or for that matter someone going down on me (ain't happening).

But then this board has many sub females who would find their doms having a sub side or a bisexual side as a total turnoff and a deal breaker. Being a bi switch I don't get that in the least, but to each their own.

Everyone has to draw their own moral lines in the sand. The whys and wherefores might make for interesting discussion, but in the end, no matter how open we think we are, we all have our prejudices, our areas where we are just not comfortable exploring.

Why do we have to?





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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 2:46:31 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		I always recommend that men with a script who are unwilling/unable to engage in a relationship seek a Pro Domme at a dungeon. This will cost more, but largely eliminates the no show factor.

Lacking a local dungeon, I'd recommend finding a pro via the local BDSM community.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 2:57:15 PM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Everyone has to draw their own moral lines in the sand. The whys and wherefores might make for interesting discussion, but in the end, no matter how open we think we are, we all have our prejudices, our areas where we are just not comfortable exploring.

Why do we have to?

In my case, I have to draw a few lines because exploration could bump up against either basic instincts of self-preservation or broader moral imperatives. I'm leery of anything that seems likely to leave me seriously injured and/or diseased, and anything involving participants that aren't fully consenting adults. Within those boundaries I'm quite happy to explore, even when the territory becomes a bit scary and disturbing. After all, being scared and disturbed is part of the fun.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 3:08:51 PM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		FR~
I have nothing against Pro's, in point of fact the first man I dated who was into BDSM was a pro, a male at that. I didn't have to pay though =X but he was certainly professional about his sessions, and must have been good at them because he often got paid hefty sums. Taking his words at face value there was also never any sex with paying clients.

I like to think it opened my eyes up pretty wide when I first started learning about BDSM, and I skipped a good portion(not all) of the blinders and rose colored glasses phase.

I think most of the online hatred towards 'pros' though is due to the fact there are so many scammers online, no one is taken at face value because of the likelyhood it's just someone looking to make a buck and not provide a service.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 3:30:10 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Well yeah, being scared and disturbed *IS* part of the fun. But all human beings have places we won't go for emotional or moral reasons. Our unconscious is programmed to protect us, and most of us have very well entrenched programming.

That's not to say that envelop shouldn't or can't be pushed, pushing it can be scary and disturbing and sometimes even freeing. But again I have to state part of being human is having those off limit places.

JMO



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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 3:33:15 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Oddly enough, I am somewhat anti-pro......  For Myself.

It's just not the place I am at in My spirituality just now.  It isn't the right choice to make.  For Me.

Could I?  You bet.  A lot of the gals who pass for pros these days aren't at My level as a top and I fully admit My bias in comparing their skill levels to Mine.  I know I shouldn't, but I can't help Myself.

Fortunately, over the years, I've known some wonderfully skilled pros and that balances out My thinking a bit.  The ones who really are good at their field and deserve the label professional.  That helps a bit.


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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 3:33:27 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Privileged

I’m not talking about those seeking a mutually beneficial relationship. I’m talking about men who are solely seeking their own satisfaction.

If your aversion to pro sessions goes deeper than “PRO DUMMES R WHORES”, I’d love to hear your thoughts.




While a pro domme may have subs of her own, those who pay her are her clients, not her subs/slaves.  She is being paid to provide satisfaction to her clients.  Her satisfaction/desires are completely secondary, unless that is part of what the client wants.

There have been multiple discussions regarding alleged "pro dommes" who are complaining about men who have "scripts" and their inability to understand that while they may engage in being a "pro" because they enjoy it, it is really all about what the client wants.

As for "pros are whores," it depends on a person's definition of "whore."  Many people equate "whore" and "prostitute."  A pro domme is, without question, working in the sex trade.  Whether or not she has sex with a client is completely irrelevant.  Typically, her client is seeking her out for his/her sexual satisfaction, so prostitute is simply not an incorrect term.  So it boils down to whether a person finds prostitution offensive or not.  Personally, it isn't that I find being a prostitute offensive, more that I find women working as pro dommes trying to deny that they are not really different than prostitutes to be deluding themselves and trying to hold themselves as something "above" a call girl.

As for whether or not a pro would be a "safer" option, as others have said, while it might be true should someone visit a "legitimate" or experienced "pro," the sad reality is that, on this site at least, I would venture that more than 90% of the women who claim to be "pro dommes" are nothing more than very young girls (18-23) who really have little knowledge of BDSM, but rather are seeking to fleece a guy out of money and find calling themselves a "pro" and demanding "tribute" as easy money.  More sad than that, is it apparently works.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 4:25:02 PM   
kittycake


Posts: 42
Joined: 3/1/2012
Status: offline 		From what I've seen lurking on these boards under a variety of nicknames is that the forum side of CM tends to be fairly pro. Not necessarily gung-ho for it, but I think a lot of people have a "whatever floats their boat" view of it. Personally, I think there is certainly a place for pro-dommes. Granted, I would only visit one with extensive references and that I felt checked out and was willing to discuss with me whatever kink it was I was interested in experiencing in a safe, sane environment.

Most of the anti movement I see on the other side is from the same guys who will write every female, sub or domme, and beg her to let them serve her, and then flip out with they are denied.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 4:35:19 PM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		As a Pro, I do not have sex with My clients or My subs. I also, do not satisfy the clients who book sessions with Me. I do what I enjoy. I have been into the Pro side of things for a while now, and have a set of regulars that rebook quite often. The term prostitute doesn't offend Me, as I am not a prostitute. I am a Pro Domme.

It is sad the amount of young "princesses" on the other side who claim they are professionals and are about to be evicted or have sheets for curtains, or can't afford a car. Or they get some poor sap to send them tribute and then disappear. Those are the ones who give Pros a bad name.

I feel that everyone has their own opinions of how they feel a Pro should be, or how she should run her business.

I feel there are Pros that are awesome at what they do and then there are the "pop corn" pros...that's a term in Memphis we use for someone looking to get rich quick.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 5:08:46 PM   
steve95476


Posts: 22
Joined: 12/21/2011
Status: offline 		Agree with TNdommeK! Well said.

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RE: The anti pro stance - 3/22/2012 5:13:07 PM   
Whenready


Posts: 319
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		Wheldrake has a point which I might summarise as "real men don't pay for it..." Also....

I see a lot of “do it because you love/enjoy/want it” statements. I suspect that this could also be paraphrased as "I want it free" or "I can't hide that many cash transactions".

Cynical? MOI?

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