RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack....

RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (Full Version)

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lovmuffin -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/16/2012 9:47:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: I'm sure that does wonders for bringing back dead victims How does this make sense when more people are killed by hand gun accidents then criminals... So with basic math if no hand guns then less deaths... get it. Butch I don't get it. How do you get to "no handguns" ? I would like to see the math on that.

DissolvedGuy -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/16/2012 11:21:37 PM)
Nevermind.

OsideGirl -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 7:44:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Then for every one criminal killed by a conceal and carry gun owner tell the parents of the many maimed and killed children in hand gun accidents. The largest cause of death of children is car accidents. Are you going to advocate not putting children into cars? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How does this make sense when more people are killed by hand gun accidents then criminals... Incorrect. According to Wikipedia...the largest number of gun deaths are suicides: quote: The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides, with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths. If 50.6% of the deaths were suicide and 40.5% were homicides, that means that 3.9% of the deaths in 2007 were accidental. Child Death Review says that currently less than 2% of gun deaths are due to accidental discharge. 55% of that 2% are children. The highest levels are in high poverty areas with high levels of family violence, less adult supervision and with a higher likelihood that the guns were obtained illegally. Again, your child has a better chance of dying in a car accident.

kdsub -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 8:03:26 AM)
Yes children are killed in many ways but I have been talking hand guns or easily handled and concealed firearms. Don't you think we should be concerned about all the ways accidents occur? As a for instance here in my area are a few recent examples: a 2-year-old in Cooper County, Missouri, died after shooting himself in the head with a handgun that "he got a hold of" in his house. a 5-year-old in Belleville, Illinois, near St. Louis, was accidentally shot in the head by his 10-year-old brother. a 3-year-old in Maryland Heights, Missouri, near St. Louis, who shot himself once in the chest, died. a 3-year-old in St. Louis, Missouri who died after she shot herself in the head with a gun she found tucked between two mattresses. a 2-year-old in Missouri who died after he accidentally shot himself in the head after finding a loaded handgun on a shelf in the closet of his parent's bedroom Crap I could go on I’m just tired of copy and paste. Now in searching I found ONE instance where a woman shot a burglar with a legally registered conceal and carry hand gun in the last 3 years. I can protect my home just fine with a 20 gauge shot gun yet it would be almost impossible for my 5 year old grandson, even if I kept it loaded without a cable lock, to shoot himself with it… It could happen and it did in one example above but not easy. Now my 7 year old nephew was visited a friend a few houses down the street from his home under the supervision of the visited child’s mother. Some how his friend found the mothers 22 cal pistol and shot my nephew in the head. Luckily he had his mouth open and the round went through both sides of his mouth and missed his teeth. But another inch and he would be dead. This was not an isolated accident. I am all for gun ownership and I own several and love to hunt but a hand gun is too dangerous and not needed for home defense. The odds of needing a handgun for defense when out of the house are astronomical compared to the chance that that weapon could be the cause of an accident. Butch

OsideGirl -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 8:58:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub but a hand gun is too dangerous and not needed for home defense. FYI, I chose a handgun for home defense over the rifle because if someone is forcing their way into the house (which has been the issue in our area), I wouldn't be able to get a rifle/shotgun up in time. We don't have children. We have two dogs, but they don't have thumbs. Out of our circle of friends, only one couple has a child under 18. He's 12 and his father is an ex-Marine firearms instructor. We also put our guns in the safe when friends come over. So, why is that too dangerous? Part two: In every instance, these children got their hands on a gun that wasn't secured. The problem isn't the hand gun, it's the parents lack of responsibility. Just like the children who die from poisoning getting their hands on a product that wasn't secured. We just had two teenagers die, three in serious condition and two arrested in a street racing accident. I noticed no one is blaming the cars as the cause of death.

kdsub -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 4:18:56 PM)
quote: Part two: In every instance, these children got their hands on a gun that wasn't secured. The problem isn't the hand gun, it's the parents lack of responsibility. Just like the children who die from poisoning getting their hands on a product that wasn't secured. What good does saying the above do? Yes it is the parents fault...but it happens over and over. That will only change when small easy to handle guns are NOT available to children... Many items we need to use every day are poison...but you don't NEED the hand gun. OK let make a bet... I'll bet I can lift my 20 gauge off the wall and hit something with it a lot easier than you can get your hand gun and fire a small round with accuracy. Do you see where the shot gun is far better for home defense...just point and shoot...no need to aim. Not so with a hand gun. Now where does that high velocity round go if you miss?...Maybe through the wall and hit a child. With a shot gun with the right shot and load no problem...but it will still stop anyone with harm on their mind. How many ways do you think are enough to accidentally kill children? Because one way is not addressed does that mean it is OK with you to let children die another way? Butch

SternSkipper -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 4:40:49 PM)
Can't have an election year without a totally nob-existent threat to the gun lobby. They get all pissed off like an 8 year old not invited to a birthday party.[:D] I'll have to admit that it did lead to me finding some wacked out shit in an effort to help along a debate with the kind of back up the issue deserves: Philosophical; Commentary: http://iranianredneck.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/armed-black-men-our-only-hope-for-gun-control/ Science: http://www.cracked.com/article_19781_6-stupid-gun-myths-everyone-believes-thanks-to-movies.html Fun Projects For The Kiddies: http://www.ehow.com/info_7866375_school-projects-gun-safety.html And Of Course, What better debating tool than examples of gun safety at work: http://gorillamask.net/index.php?show_page=video&start_results=11500&page_id=14882&

lovmuffin -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 6:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper Can't have an election year without a totally nob-existent threat to the gun lobby. They get all pissed off like an 8 year old not invited to a birthday party.[:D] I'll have to admit that it did lead to me finding some wacked out shit in an effort to help along a debate with the kind of back up the issue deserves: Philosophical; Commentary: http://iranianredneck.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/armed-black-men-our-only-hope-for-gun-control/ Science: http://www.cracked.com/article_19781_6-stupid-gun-myths-everyone-believes-thanks-to-movies.html Fun Projects For The Kiddies: http://www.ehow.com/info_7866375_school-projects-gun-safety.html And Of Course, What better debating tool than examples of gun safety at work: http://gorillamask.net/index.php?show_page=video&start_results=11500&page_id=14882& Good links but I can't get the last one to play because it needs a plug in that I can't seem to get. I would have liked to have seen this one "10 Of The Funniest Gun Mishaps and Accidents Caught On Camera"

Owner59 -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 6:57:54 PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmRN00KbCr8 This was one our favorites when it came out.........awkward.......[:D]

DarqueMirror -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 11:15:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether If you believe that one with a firearm some how imbues them with heighten senses and responsiblity towards themselves and society at large; your a moron! And if you believe that I said a gun inherently bestows responsibility on a person, you need a lesson in reading comprehension. I said no such thing. I did say that to own own one, a person needs to be responsible. quote: ORIGINAL: joether The news (recent and old) have plenty of examples of individuals thought to be 'responsible' with their firearms, No. The news is filled with stories about people who were proven to not be responsible. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Actually, they are. Actually, they aren't. Aside from both being capable of firing a projectile through explosive force, they are nowhere near the same. You can't carry around a machine gun in public. You can carry a concealed handgun.

DarqueMirror -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 11:21:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub As a for instance here in my area are a few recent examples: a 2-year-old in Cooper County, Missouri, died after shooting himself in the head with a handgun that "he got a hold of" in his house. a 5-year-old in Belleville, Illinois, near St. Louis, was accidentally shot in the head by his 10-year-old brother. a 3-year-old in Maryland Heights, Missouri, near St. Louis, who shot himself once in the chest, died. a 3-year-old in St. Louis, Missouri who died after she shot herself in the head with a gun she found tucked between two mattresses. a 2-year-old in Missouri who died after he accidentally shot himself in the head after finding a loaded handgun on a shelf in the closet of his parent's bedroom Every single one of these incidents are a direct result of irresponsible gun ownership. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Now in searching I found ONE instance where a woman shot a burglar with a legally registered conceal and carry hand gun in the last 3 years. You obviously didn't search very thoroughly. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub This was not an isolated accident. I am all for gun ownership and I own several and love to hunt but a hand gun is too dangerous and not needed for home defense. The odds of needing a handgun for defense when out of the house are astronomical compared to the chance that that weapon could be the cause of an accident. A handgun not needed for home defense? Seriously? You can do a lot less damage with a .380 than you can with a shotgun. Every weapon needs a responsible owner. Don't blame the gun for the accident. Without a finger on the trigger, the gun does nothing but sit and collect dust.

DarqueMirror -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/17/2012 11:30:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub What good does saying the above do? It puts the blame where it belongs -- irresponsible owners/parents. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Yes it is the parents fault...but it happens over and over. That will only change when small easy to handle guns are NOT available to children... Many items we need to use every day are poison...but you don't NEED the hand gun. No. It will keep happening as long as there are increasing numbers of irresponsible parents. Your logic is the same faulty logic used by people who want to censor what's on TV. "My kid might see that show so it shouldn't be on the air." You can't limit what a responsible person can do because of the actions of an irresponsible person. If we could, no one would be allowed to own a car. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub OK let make a bet... I'll bet I can lift my 20 gauge off the wall and hit something with it a lot easier than you can get your hand gun and fire a small round with accuracy. Yeah, you'll hit your target and anything else in the same vicinity, depending in the type of shot you use. A handgun bullet that's a hollow point only hits the target it's aimed at and nothing else. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Do you see where the shot gun is far better for home defense...just point and shoot...no need to aim. If you truly believe any gun has no need to be aimed, you qualify as an irresponsible owner and I'm glad I don't live next door to you. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Not so with a hand gun. Now where does that high velocity round go if you miss?...Maybe through the wall and hit a child. With a shot gun with the right shot and load no problem...but it will still stop anyone with harm on their mind. Handgun rounds don't count as high-velocity. I'm starting to wonder if you really know anything about guns. Most handguns are very short range. Even a .45 round has called "slow," nd unable to penetrate hard surfaces. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How many ways do you think are enough to accidentally kill children? Because one way is not addressed does that mean it is OK with you to let children die another way? Again, irresponsible owners/parents will kill their kids no matter what. Doesn't mean we have to limit the freedoms of responsible people because a few can't handle the responsibility.

OsideGirl -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 7:43:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror You can't limit what a responsible person can do because of the actions of an irresponsible person. If we could, no one would be allowed to own a car. Exactly. The #1 killer of children is car accidents. I notice he's not advocating that children shouldn't be in cars. FYI - Stand Your Ground law has nothing to do with the right to own guns, so I'm not quite sure why handguns and children are being discussed in this thread. Stand Your Ground law means that you can defend yourself with any weapon without fear of prosecution or civil law suits. That means if you pepper spray someone. That means if you stun gun/taser someone. That means if you use a "keychain cat". That means if you use a baseball bat. It means if you use a ball point pen. It means that if a criminal breaks into your house and injures himself, he can't sue you for his injuries. It means if someone tries to rape you and you pepper spray the shit out of him, you won't get charged with assault.

kdsub -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 7:57:45 AM)
quote: You obviously didn't search very thoroughly Ok you find them in the St. Louis area and show me

Aneirin -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 8:00:44 AM)
Interpretation of the law is the problem and with that people and what they understand, even the way they think, not the inanimate objects that do nothing without the intervention of people. But hey, that is why in every country there is a thriving legal profession and we still can't get it right. Banning weapons will not stop weapons being used, as criminals by the very virtue of their intent will break laws and one does not have to be a criminal previously to commit criminal activity as new criminals are created every day through plain old misinterpretation of laws designed to be misunderstood which gives others a job.

Owner59 -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 8:32:16 AM)
The car/gun analogy never worked for me.Society would grind to a halt without cars trucks and trains. They do both tho,IMHO require licensing,insurance and penalties when you fuck up and severe penalties both civil and criminal if you misuse your car or gun. A stand your ground type law for drivers, would say you can run over someone without much consequence under certain circumstances. It`s not the gun/car that`s the problem here.It`s the SYG law that`s F`d up and needs to go. Someone who shoots another needs to prove they were threatened.......not just that they "felt" threatened or "thought" they were threatened. And if a LEO says a shooter or car crasher needs to face a manslaughter charge(like in that<e-hem>other case),there should be nothing in the law that arbitrarily says otherwise. .

Lucylastic -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 9:00:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper Can't have an election year without a totally nob-existent threat to the gun lobby. They get all pissed off like an 8 year old not invited to a birthday party.[:D] I'll have to admit that it did lead to me finding some wacked out shit in an effort to help along a debate with the kind of back up the issue deserves: Philosophical; Commentary: http://iranianredneck.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/armed-black-men-our-only-hope-for-gun-control/ Science: http://www.cracked.com/article_19781_6-stupid-gun-myths-everyone-believes-thanks-to-movies.html Fun Projects For The Kiddies: http://www.ehow.com/info_7866375_school-projects-gun-safety.html And Of Course, What better debating tool than examples of gun safety at work: http://gorillamask.net/index.php?show_page=video&start_results=11500&page_id=14882& Good links but I can't get the last one to play because it needs a plug in that I can't seem to get. I would have liked to have seen this one "10 Of The Funniest Gun Mishaps and Accidents Caught On Camera" try here http://cottonandsand.com/sandandcotton/?p=2669

OsideGirl -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 9:00:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 It`s not the gun/car that`s the problem here.It`s the SYG law that`s F`d up and needs to go. Someone who shoots another needs to prove they were threatened.......not just that they "felt" threatened or "thought" they were threatened. . So, you think that if someone is breaking into your house and you hit them with a lamp and injure them.....that person should be able to sue you and/or press assault charges?

Owner59 -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 9:56:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 It`s not the gun/car that`s the problem here.It`s the SYG law that`s F`d up and needs to go. Someone who shoots another needs to prove they were threatened.......not just that they "felt" threatened or "thought" they were threatened. . So, you think that if someone is breaking into your house and you hit them with a lamp and injure them.....that person should be able to sue you and/or press assault charges? No....that`s proof enough. And always has been. I`m sure there`s been quite a few situations where date rape was stopped with a gun too.I teach rape prevention and self defense and there never is a one size fits all solution. I tell my students that if they really are afraid of being victimized,get a dog.Better yet,get two dogs. A gun if that`s what you think works for you.A Mace pistol or three is also a great thing to have in the drawer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa304Plk1So But once a line has been crossed,someone`s death,only a LEO should determine whether the killing was justified.

OsideGirl -> RE: "Stand Your Ground" law under attack.... (4/18/2012 10:01:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 It`s not the gun/car that`s the problem here.It`s the SYG law that`s F`d up and needs to go. Someone who shoots another needs to prove they were threatened.......not just that they "felt" threatened or "thought" they were threatened. . So, you think that if someone is breaking into your house and you hit them with a lamp and injure them.....that person should be able to sue you and/or press assault charges? No....that`s proof enough. And always has been. Apparently not. Because in states that don't have SYG or Castle Doctrine....the law suits and assault charges happen. Again, SYG and Castle Doctrine only limits the legal and civil actions. It has nothing to do with WHICH weapon is used. If it is found that it wasn't really self defense, then the SYG and Castle Doctrines would not apply and legal charges/civil suits may be filed.

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