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RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/5/2012 6:55:07 AM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
It depends on which databases they have access to. I know that cops can verify whether my vehicle is insured just by entering in my license plate number into their system.


That is assuming that thier town has put enough money in the town budget to pay for the appropriate computer system.

quote:

If they pull me over and ask for my ID, they can check and see if there are any warrants out for my arrest. It should be just a simple matter of contacting the proper federal agencies and verifying if someone is in the country legally or not (and that's only if the individual doesn't have proper identification).


That is assuming that the LEO doesn't haul you in at the end of his shift on a Friday night and decides to go home and wait until Monday to make the phone call.

quote:

As long as the individual has proper identification, then the law is satisfied, and the cops can't do anything.


Go back and read my earlier post (#11 on this thread).

* If the law enforcement officer (LEO) who stopped you for being a possible illegal refuses to accept your driver's license and/or Social Security card as proof of citizenship and,
* He/she is a LEO for a small town that can't afford the equipment to be connected to the federal government's data-base and,
* If you are stopped on a weekend,

You can expect to be in a jail cell for a minimum of 24 hours until the LEO get around to calling the feds on the phone sometime the following Monday morning, after the LEO has had his doughnuts and his second or third cup of coffee.

Ever spend 24-48 hours or more in a jail cell - especially when you have committed no crime? I suspect that if you had, you'd sing a different tune.

And, BTW, a part of Arizona's SB1070 prohibits you from suing the LEO or his town for falsely arresting you as a suspected illegal after the feds get you released.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/6/2012 7:14:46 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
It depends on which databases they have access to. I know that cops can verify whether my vehicle is insured just by entering in my license plate number into their system. If they pull me over and ask for my ID, they can check and see if there are any warrants out for my arrest. It should be just a simple matter of contacting the proper federal agencies and verifying if someone is in the country legally or not (and that's only if the individual doesn't have proper identification). As long as the individual has proper identification, then the law is satisfied, and the cops can't do anything.

From what i have read about the cops trying to verify if someone is in the country illegally or not, it actually isnt easy at all.. a person could be held (in detention/jail) for a week or two while they attempt to verify a persons status. If it was that easy, then legal Americans would not be physically deported as some of them have been.


It should be noted that even under SB 1070, the state government can not deport anyone. The only thing they can do is hand them over to federal authorities. So, if the feds are deporting people who shouldn't be deported, then that's solely on the feds, not on any state government or state law.

State or local law enforcement officers would have the duty to contact the feds to verify if someone is here legally. Again, if there's any delays in this process, then that would solely be the feds' fault, not any state or local LEO.

I don't see this as an argument against SB 1070, but rather, it's an argument against sloppy record keeping on the feds' part.

Perhaps the feds should clean up their own house before getting on the case of any state government.

quote:


And about warrants,.. i was stopped by the cops and they asked me if there were any warrants out for my arrest.. Cops dont ask that kinda question if they dont know the answer already.. I knew of no warrants and i asked them why they were asking me, to which i got no answer.. it wasnt until i tried to get a drivers license did i find out that a speeding ticket i paid several years earlier was still listed as outstanding (even tho 1 month after i paid it i checked their website and the balance owed was $0), which likely also meant there was a warrant outstanding.. I called the county about the ticket and the clerk looked it up and claimed it was a computer glitch.. That doesnt help much if you are in jail for several days had the cops decided to enforce the warrant.. I mention this just to show how easy various records can be reported incorrectly.. and also, E-Verify also has a lot of errors and if you are listed on that as not being able to work due to one of those errors, your employer cant hire you and will take someone else instead.. How long before the error is corrected and how long before another job offer?

The computer isnt always right.. just sayin'


Yes, I agree, and it's an outrage any time an innocent person gets arrested and/or wrongly convicted. But again, that can happen with ANY law and at ANY level of government. If anything, this is a good reason for decreasing federal authority, not increasing it.

Of course, I have the perfect solution to the problem you're outlining here. For example, in your case, if the officer honored the warrant and put you in jail, then, once the case is cleared up, that officer should be put in jail for the exact same length of time that you would have been. Perhaps the clerk at the courthouse should also be put in jail, just to teach them a lesson about entering the wrong data into the computer.

In cases where someone is wrongfully convicted, then the prosecuting attorney and the judge in the case should be put in prison for at least one year or the same length of time as the person who was wrongly convicted - whichever is longer. Do that a few times, and I would bet my last dollar that cases of wrongful conviction would never, ever happen again.

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 5/6/2012 7:30:35 AM >

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/6/2012 7:29:21 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
It depends on which databases they have access to. I know that cops can verify whether my vehicle is insured just by entering in my license plate number into their system.


That is assuming that thier town has put enough money in the town budget to pay for the appropriate computer system.

quote:

If they pull me over and ask for my ID, they can check and see if there are any warrants out for my arrest. It should be just a simple matter of contacting the proper federal agencies and verifying if someone is in the country legally or not (and that's only if the individual doesn't have proper identification).


That is assuming that the LEO doesn't haul you in at the end of his shift on a Friday night and decides to go home and wait until Monday to make the phone call.

quote:

As long as the individual has proper identification, then the law is satisfied, and the cops can't do anything.


Go back and read my earlier post (#11 on this thread).

* If the law enforcement officer (LEO) who stopped you for being a possible illegal refuses to accept your driver's license and/or Social Security card as proof of citizenship and,
* He/she is a LEO for a small town that can't afford the equipment to be connected to the federal government's data-base and,
* If you are stopped on a weekend,

You can expect to be in a jail cell for a minimum of 24 hours until the LEO get around to calling the feds on the phone sometime the following Monday morning, after the LEO has had his doughnuts and his second or third cup of coffee.

Ever spend 24-48 hours or more in a jail cell - especially when you have committed no crime? I suspect that if you had, you'd sing a different tune.


Well, I can see what you're saying, and as I mentioned in my response to tj444, such things are outrageous. In such a case, the law enforcement officer should be put in jail for 24-48 hours as punishment for locking up someone who committed no crime and should not have been arrested.

Like that kid in San Diego who was locked up by the DEA in San Diego and forgotten for five days - left in a cell with no windows, no food, no water, no toilet. That was abominable, and it was no small town cop or country bumpkin. The feds are just as bad, if not worse than any local cop. Put those DEA agents in the same cell for five days. That would teach them a lesson.

So, I agree. The cops have to be accountable.

But that should go just as much for the feds as much as the locals. The feds are often worse. That's why I'm so confused as to why people seem to put more trust in the centralized federal government.

At least, I have friends in the local power structure, so if the local cops give me a hard time, then I know who to call. I can deal with local cops on much more reasonable level than is ever possible with intransigent, intractable federal cops who think they're above the law and can do whatever they want. Local cops are far more restricted as to what they can do.

quote:


And, BTW, a part of Arizona's SB1070 prohibits you from suing the LEO or his town for falsely arresting you as a suspected illegal after the feds get you released.


Isn't that pretty much standard for all laws, unless it's proven that the LEO acted in bad faith? What about those DEA agents in San Diego? What's going to happen to them? Are they going to be facing any charges? Or is it going to be yet another matter of the taxpayers' footing the bill for their incompetence, while they get away scot free?


< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 5/6/2012 7:36:08 AM >

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/6/2012 3:52:14 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
there's no practical way of getting around having to carry some form of ID, even if it's just a driver's license and social security card.

ummm... having a drivers license and social security card does not mean you are an American citizen or a legal immigrant..


ummm... I'm well aware of this, but that's beside the point. If it's okay to ask for some forms of identification, why is it so outrageous if someone is asked to verify that they're in the country legally? What's the difference? Why is one perfectly okay, while the other is not? Can someone please explain the inconsistency here?



The reason for the former is that the courts have ruled that the cops can require anyone to show identification.
The reason for the latter is that he courts have not so ruled. The reason being that very few of us who live in th u.s. can prove that we are u.s. citizens.


Well, I suppose we'll get a court ruling on this case soon enough, but that still doesn't explain the apparent outrage and zeal against the idea. The satirical criticism of imitating a German accent and saying "Papers, please," as well as the belief that this will somehow lead to a "police state" seem a bit far-fetched to me, especially if the only actual difference happens to be that "the courts have not so ruled" on this matter. Seems like this is splitting hairs over a minor point.

Personally, I don't like the idea that cops (or even private organizations) can ask for identification at all. So, I can sympathize with those sarcastically imitating Germans who say "Papers, please," but this should be just as outrageous in the former as well as the latter. This inconsistency in outrage is still incomprehensible to me.

As for your next point:


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
There is nothing on your birth certificate that proves the holder of the paper is the person named on the paper.
If you used a birth certificate to get a passport or a drivers license of ss number they are all based on something that doesn't prove anything.


Perhaps not, but it's the best anyone can do under the circumstances. The documentation provided would be sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the law, even if it may not be absolute concrete 100% proof. (Nothing in this universe is 100% proven.) The point is, if *I* can carry proper identification and satisfy the requirements of the law, then anyone can do it. It's just one more card I have to carry in my wallet. It's not really a big deal, considering all the other "papers" I have to carry and be able to show on demand.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not a supporter of this law, but in my opinion, the opponents of SB 1070 are taking a completely wrong tack on this. They keep focusing on the "papers" so much that they're missing the forest through the trees. Why aren't they attacking the idea that cops can pull people over and ask for ID on general principles? That is, if they're REALLY so upset about cops asking for "Papers, please." My only point is that they should define their position and stick to it, rather than jumping all over la-la land with convoluted and inconsistent arguments.

SB 1070 was more symbolic distraction than anything else. It was just passed as a matter of political expediency for the Republicans to gain more popular support among the hoi polloi, but even if fully implemented (which it won't be), it probably won't do much of anything one way or the other.

quote:


Those like me who have held a top secret clearence (background check included the delivering doctor,school teachers from grammar school through high school,neighbors,employers) and naturalized citizens can prove it. The ability of any cop on the street to validate someones citizenship status if virtually nonexistant.


It depends on which databases they have access to. I know that cops can verify whether my vehicle is insured just by entering in my license plate number into their system. If they pull me over and ask for my ID, they can check and see if there are any warrants out for my arrest. It should be just a simple matter of contacting the proper federal agencies and verifying if someone is in the country legally or not (and that's only if the individual doesn't have proper identification). As long as the individual has proper identification, then the law is satisfied, and the cops can't do anything.










Your opinions about the facts that I posted have been noted.
Should you have any factual data to back up your opinions I would be interested in listening to them.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/6/2012 7:25:34 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Your opinions about the facts that I posted have been noted.
Should you have any factual data to back up your opinions I would be interested in listening to them.



More to the point, I was asking questions about obvious inconsistencies in the positions held by others in regards to this situation. If you don't actually know the answers, then that's okay. But if you have anything constructive to offer, I would be interested in listening, too.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/6/2012 8:10:56 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Your opinions about the facts that I posted have been noted.
Should you have any factual data to back up your opinions I would be interested in listening to them.



More to the point, I was asking questions about obvious inconsistencies in the positions held by others in regards to this situation. If you don't actually know the answers, then that's okay. But if you have anything constructive to offer, I would be interested in listening, too.



I did answer your questions with facts so it is pretty obvious that I do know the answers. Your post responded to my facts with opinions.
Should you choose to validate your opinions please do... if snark is all you have to offer...then I will pass.


(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/6/2012 8:28:50 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Your opinions about the facts that I posted have been noted.
Should you have any factual data to back up your opinions I would be interested in listening to them.



More to the point, I was asking questions about obvious inconsistencies in the positions held by others in regards to this situation. If you don't actually know the answers, then that's okay. But if you have anything constructive to offer, I would be interested in listening, too.



I did answer your questions with facts so it is pretty obvious that I do know the answers. Your post responded to my facts with opinions.
Should you choose to validate your opinions please do... if snark is all you have to offer...then I will pass.




I was asking questions, thinking that someone might be able to answer them. Your "facts" were uncoordinated and irrelevant to the questions I was asking.

As far as "snark" is concerned, you're hardly in any position to criticize, so maybe it would be best for all concerned if you did pass on this and any future discussions.








(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/7/2012 5:35:08 AM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
But that should go just as much for the feds as much as the locals. The feds are often worse. That's why I'm so confused as to why people seem to put more trust in the centralized federal government.

At least, I have friends in the local power structure, so if the local cops give me a hard time, then I know who to call. I can deal with local cops on much more reasonable level

According to your profile, you are a Caucasian male - so it is not illogical to assume that you "have friends in the local power structure, so if the local cops give you a hard time, then you know who to call". I’m a Caucasian male myself and in the town where I live, I "have friends in the local power structure, so if the local cops give me a hard time, then I know who to call".

If you were an American citizen of Hispanic origin living in the same town in Arizona as you live in, or a legal Hispanic visitor to the United States who is passing through your town in Arizona, you may have no buddies in the local power structure.

If you were an American citizen of Hispanic origin living in the same town in Arizona as you live in, you probably don't belong to the same church or the same Masonic lodge or even play golf at the same country club as the "local power structure".

If you were an American citizen of Hispanic origin living in the same town in Arizona as you live in, you are, in the eyes of the "local power structure" an "other", someone who is automatically assumed to be an “alien” until proven otherwise and clearly not to be accorded the same rights and privileges as a Caucasian - even if that Hispanic’s family have been American citizens for two or three generations longer than the Caucasian and his family.

Having grown up in a major metropolitan city in the 1950’s and 1960’s with one of the most corrupt police forces in the world (Philadelphia, PA) and having lived in various small towns in Texas, Louisiana and Colorado over the years, I trust Federal law enforcement and state police far more than I trust a local Barney Fife/Dudley-Do-Right. The more local a cop is, the more likely he/she is to be in the pocket of the "local power structure". The chief of police in a small town isn't going to investigate a complaint properly against one of his cops if the same cop is his brother-in-law or cousin. Federal and state law enforcement have higher standards and more oversight.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/7/2012 6:19:59 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

ummm... I'm well aware of this, but that's beside the point. If it's okay to ask for some forms of identification, why is it so outrageous if someone is asked to verify that they're in the country legally? What's the difference? Why is one perfectly okay, while the other is not? Can someone please explain the inconsistency here?


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The reason for the former is that the courts have ruled that the cops can require anyone to show identification.
The reason for the latter is that he courts have not so ruled. The reason being that very few of us who live in th u.s. can prove that we are u.s. citizens.
There is nothing on your birth certificate that proves the holder of the paper is the person named on the paper.
If you used a birth certificate to get a passport or a drivers license of ss number they are all based on something that doesn't prove anything.
Those like me who have held a top secret clearence (background check included the delivering doctor,school teachers from grammar school through high school,neighbors,employers) and naturalized citizens can prove it. The ability of any cop on the street to validate someones citizenship status if virtually nonexistant.


quote:

I was asking questions, thinking that someone might be able to answer them. Your "facts" were uncoordinated and irrelevant to the questions I was asking.



(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/7/2012 9:33:00 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Sorry, it was PROGRESS, IE PROGRESSIVES that wiped out the "Native" Americans.


What 'log cabin' did you learn that in Mr Lincoln?



All in the name of Manifest Destiny... IE PROGRESS.

Sorry, your libtard revisionist history must not have covered history very well, I bet you believe Abe Lincoln was a vampire hunter too.

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/7/2012 10:35:36 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
But that should go just as much for the feds as much as the locals. The feds are often worse. That's why I'm so confused as to why people seem to put more trust in the centralized federal government.

At least, I have friends in the local power structure, so if the local cops give me a hard time, then I know who to call. I can deal with local cops on much more reasonable level

According to your profile, you are a Caucasian male - so it is not illogical to assume that you "have friends in the local power structure, so if the local cops give you a hard time, then you know who to call". I’m a Caucasian male myself and in the town where I live, I "have friends in the local power structure, so if the local cops give me a hard time, then I know who to call".

If you were an American citizen of Hispanic origin living in the same town in Arizona as you live in, or a legal Hispanic visitor to the United States who is passing through your town in Arizona, you may have no buddies in the local power structure.

If you were an American citizen of Hispanic origin living in the same town in Arizona as you live in, you probably don't belong to the same church or the same Masonic lodge or even play golf at the same country club as the "local power structure".


I wouldn't be so sure of that. There are quite a few highly placed Hispanics here, too, including the chief of police.

Tucson is not the same as Phoenix. Our two cities are as different as night and day. I know when you guys back east always hear about Arizona, you tend to make assumptions about the entire state as being all the same, but it's not. The Phoenix metro area has 60% of the population and controls the legislature and state government. The rest of the state is a mixed bag. Tucson is a rather diverse and somewhat liberal, compared to Phoenix. Democrats are a majority down here (although that doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things).

We're much more laid back, too. When I was in high school, we used to affectionately refer to our city "Too Stoned, Arizona." Guess why.

quote:


If you were an American citizen of Hispanic origin living in the same town in Arizona as you live in, you are, in the eyes of the "local power structure" an "other", someone who is automatically assumed to be an “alien” until proven otherwise and clearly not to be accorded the same rights and privileges as a Caucasian - even if that Hispanic’s family have been American citizens for two or three generations longer than the Caucasian and his family.


I think I have a pretty good handle on how things are in my own town. We have our share of problems and quite a lot of local corruption and gross incompetence in both city and county governments. You'd really have to visit here and spend some time to get a feel for things, as the national media seems to give a confused picture of how things are in Arizona, mainly because the whole state is overshadowed by that crowd up in Phoenix.



quote:


Having grown up in a major metropolitan city in the 1950’s and 1960’s with one of the most corrupt police forces in the world (Philadelphia, PA) and having lived in various small towns in Texas, Louisiana and Colorado over the years, I trust Federal law enforcement and state police far more than I trust a local Barney Fife/Dudley-Do-Right. The more local a cop is, the more likely he/she is to be in the pocket of the "local power structure". The chief of police in a small town isn't going to investigate a complaint properly against one of his cops if the same cop is his brother-in-law or cousin. Federal and state law enforcement have higher standards and more oversight.


Well, for one thing, Tucson isn't really a small town. But one thing I've observed is that the higher one goes in the police hierarchy, the more arrogance one finds and a lack of accountability. If I really had a problem with the local police, it would not be impossible for me to make an appointment and set up a meeting with the chief of police (or some other local official) to discuss it. It would much easier than getting to see the FBI director (as one example), who would be almost untouchable by comparison. Local governments are far more accessible and flexible as well, whereas to change anything in federal law enforcement would (literally) require an act of Congress.

Why do you think the FBI is far more feared as a police organization? Nobody fears the local cops; as you say, they're "Barney Fife." People view local yokels as a joke - not to be taken seriously, while the FBI, ATF, DEA, ICE (or even the IRS, for that matter) send chills up people's spines. I won't even go into the CIA or the U.S. military (both of which are hated and feared world-wide).





(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/7/2012 10:45:17 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Sorry, it was PROGRESS, IE PROGRESSIVES that wiped out the "Native" Americans.


What 'log cabin' did you learn that in Mr Lincoln?



All in the name of Manifest Destiny... IE PROGRESS.

Sorry, your libtard revisionist history must not have covered history very well, I bet you believe Abe Lincoln was a vampire hunter too.

Rob, by your logic, I could say that Conservatives are Conservationists. Yaknow, Environmentalists......tree huggers.....That sort of thing?

Cmon, You're better than that.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/7/2012 1:21:43 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I know when you guys back east always hear about Arizona, you tend to make assumptions about the entire state as being all the same, but it's not. The Phoenix metro area has 60% of the population and controls the legislature and state government. The rest of the state is a mixed bag. Tucson is a rather diverse and somewhat liberal, compared to Phoenix. Democrats are a majority down here (although that doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things).

We're much more laid back, too. When I was in high school, we used to affectionately refer to our city "Too Stoned, Arizona." Guess why.

Actually, I do know Tucson, at least Tucson of the 1970s and 1980s, fairly well. During those years, I shot approximately 11 films (among them "Cannonball Run II", "The Three Amigos", "The Outlaw Josey Wales" and "Rio Lobo") and an uncountable number of TV episodes and made-for TV movies ("Gunsmoke", "The High Chapparal", "The Wild Wild West Revisted", and "More Wild Wild West", to name a few) at Old Tucson Studios west of town in my profession of stuntman and fightdirector. Most of my work there was well before the 1995 fire. When I retired from the film business, my final two places to settle were either Tucson or Boston - I chose Boston to be closer to my kids, since my ex-wife has relocated to southern New Hampshire.

Of course, people and towns change...and the Tucson I remember so fondly probably doesn't exist anymore.


< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 5/7/2012 1:22:33 PM >


_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/8/2012 12:28:35 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I know when you guys back east always hear about Arizona, you tend to make assumptions about the entire state as being all the same, but it's not. The Phoenix metro area has 60% of the population and controls the legislature and state government. The rest of the state is a mixed bag. Tucson is a rather diverse and somewhat liberal, compared to Phoenix. Democrats are a majority down here (although that doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things).

We're much more laid back, too. When I was in high school, we used to affectionately refer to our city "Too Stoned, Arizona." Guess why.

Actually, I do know Tucson, at least Tucson of the 1970s and 1980s, fairly well. During those years, I shot approximately 11 films (among them "Cannonball Run II", "The Three Amigos", "The Outlaw Josey Wales" and "Rio Lobo") and an uncountable number of TV episodes and made-for TV movies ("Gunsmoke", "The High Chapparal", "The Wild Wild West Revisted", and "More Wild Wild West", to name a few) at Old Tucson Studios west of town in my profession of stuntman and fightdirector. Most of my work there was well before the 1995 fire. When I retired from the film business, my final two places to settle were either Tucson or Boston - I chose Boston to be closer to my kids, since my ex-wife has relocated to southern New Hampshire.

Of course, people and towns change...and the Tucson I remember so fondly probably doesn't exist anymore.



It has changed quite a bit, although some aspects still remain. We moved here in 1979 from New York, and I graduated high school out here in 1982. It's still a cheap town with low wages, as Arizona is still a right to work state. Things like that tend to wear down many of the inhabitants to the point where a lot of people are grizzled and pissed off most of the time. That may be where some of the anti-immigrant fervor is coming from, although it's escalated significantly since 9/11.

Another thing is that there was a time when there weren't as many illegal immigrants coming through Arizona. Most of them either crossed into California or across the Rio Grande into Texas. The desert region of Arizona and New Mexico was far too treacherous. That changed when the government built better fences, stronger barriers and more Border Patrol in CA and TX, which had the effect of funneling more immigrants through Arizona. I think that's had a cumulative effect over the years. The number of border deaths has increased significantly since the 1990s. More incidents, more attention from the local press, along with escalating cartel wars and genuine fear.

When large numbers of people are put in a position where they're scared and pissed off most of the time, it's not surprising how things are developing. That's why the liberal position on this issue has been somewhat disappointing, since they used to know things like this. Now, all they can do is make cruel jokes about the lower classes while passing judgment from their ivory towers back east. They're so out of touch, it just isn't funny anymore.



(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: AZ SB1070 to go before Supreme Court this week - 5/8/2012 7:49:30 PM   
Fightdirecto


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The new face of Arizona:






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< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 5/8/2012 7:50:24 PM >


_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Zonie63)
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