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ORIGINAL: Moonhead
(And I was asking specifically about your comment about the homeless guy sleeping in the gutter not being your problem.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yachtie, your original claim was:
"As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." (post #5)

Moonhead advanced a number of quotes from the Bible that suggest an interpretation at considerable variance to your claim above. Moonhead asked you:
"Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?" (post # 6)

Your response was, in my view, an exercise in sophistry:
"If I beat the crap outta you, rob you, and leave you in the gutter - I am responsible for that.
If I were one who comes along, finds you beaten and robbed and do nothing where it's within my power and ability to do something I have shirked my responsibility.
To which are you referring within the context of being responsible? To which was I referring? Are they the same? " (post #12)
Moonhead has posed a basic question, after offering persuasive evidence to rebut your original claim. Your response to this has been to attempt to obfuscate the notion of "responsibility" rather than address the points Moonhead raised. As things stand at the moment, you are losing this argument by default.

From where I sit, your response is wholly inadequate. Please respond directly to the question Moonhead put to you.

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How's the war on poverty worked out so far? Seems that the more that is done about it the worse it gets.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

How's the war on poverty worked out so far? Seems that the more that is done about it the worse it gets.

How has poverty changed over time?

In the late 1950s, the poverty rate for all Americans was 22.4 percent, or 39.5 million individuals. These numbers declined steadily throughout the 1960s, reaching a low of 11.1 percent, or 22.9 million individuals, in 1973. Over the next decade, the poverty rate fluctuated between 11.1 and 12.6 percent, but it began to rise steadily again in 1980. By 1983, the number of poor individuals had risen to 35.3 million individuals, or 15.2 percent.

For the next ten years, the poverty rate remained above 12.8 percent, increasing to 15.1 percent, or 39.3 million individuals, by 1993. The rate declined for the remainder of the decade, to 11.3 percent by 2000. From 2000 to 2004 it rose each year to 12.7 in 2004.

Since the late 1960s, the poverty rate for people over 65 has fallen dramatically. The poverty rate for children has historically been somewhat higher than the overall poverty rate. The poverty rate for people in households headed by single women is significantly higher than the overall poverty rate.

Source: National Poverty Center

Lyndon Johnson launched the War on Poverty in January 1964. Ronald Reagan took office in January 1981.

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"God helps those who help themselves",

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ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

This has been a fascinating thread, and I thank ftp for the honesty and insight that went into her OP.

I suspect that many people do indeed find it daunting to contemplate a world where "Shit happens" with no rhyme or reason. I've felt that fear myself, and I do think one of the key sources of religion's appeal to folks is that it offers a way to make sense of things.

Two thoughts that I don't think anyone has mentioned:

(a) One powerful aspect of religion is its role in creating and maintaining community. I don't simply mean the kinship that can arise from shared belief, but the flesh-and-blood connections that arise out of seeing folks regularly, opening up one's heart and mind to them, undertaking volunteer work or service projects together, and being together (casseroles in hand) during times of joy and grief. I realize community can arise in other settings as well, of course.

(b) I get that one doesn't need God to be good, though it does strike me that the moral ideals many of us espouse--that life is good, that people should be treated with dignity, that societies should be just, and so forth--are empirically unprovable and therefore require (forgive me, but I can't resist) a "leap of faith."

That is the saddest thing in all of this, that you need to say that at all. Why should you? it's just basic common sense to most people. At what point does anyone need the 10 commandmants to know whats right and wrong? Never I hope.
What the hell is wrong with people having somewhere welcoming and safe to go and talk to other kind people, nothing I hope.
Yet somehow atheists get told that they can't be part of this, what a load of bollocks

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I will continue to both do and advocate for policies that ensure a well cared for society. Because prayer and a reliance on god to solve the world's problems is not, actually, going to work.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm really just repeating what some people have said throughout the thread, but I wanted to express My view anyway. 

I don't think it is so much that people of faith or those who follow a particular religion are afraid of atheists.  There are certain atheists in particular (and we have some of them on these boards) who do have a habit of being very insulting when it comes to other people's beliefs.  It's not very difficult to see the evidence of certain people beating the drum of how stupid those who do believe in religion are and it's easily accessed by posting history.  So, basically, it's the reverse of you not wanting to be converted.  You don't want to be personally attacked because you don't believe any more than we want to be attacked because we do.  Unfortunately, this often leads to generalizations about the other side no matter which side a person happens to find themselves on. 

Oddly enough, except for these boards, I've never run across the experience of having any atheist do so in person.  Which is kind of funny because the atheists who have made their opinions known on the matter, and I have met in person, are because I've met them through these boards.  It's more like what Hib related earlier.  We know we have different views, but friendship seems to be more important.  Yes, I'm sure I wish them a Merry Christmas or some other silly thing, but it doesn't become some kind of big blow up.

Just for info, not all people of faith will tell someone they are going to hell or even use that phrase.  That's not because of what you don't believe, OP.  That's because of what I believe.  If a person does believe in hell, wouldn't telling somebody to go there be an absolutely horrible thing to wish on them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

How's the war on poverty worked out so far? Seems that the more that is done about it the worse it gets.

How has poverty changed over time?

In the late 1950s, the poverty rate for all Americans was 22.4 percent, or 39.5 million individuals. These numbers declined steadily throughout the 1960s, reaching a low of 11.1 percent, or 22.9 million individuals, in 1973. Over the next decade, the poverty rate fluctuated between 11.1 and 12.6 percent, but it began to rise steadily again in 1980. By 1983, the number of poor individuals had risen to 35.3 million individuals, or 15.2 percent.

For the next ten years, the poverty rate remained above 12.8 percent, increasing to 15.1 percent, or 39.3 million individuals, by 1993. The rate declined for the remainder of the decade, to 11.3 percent by 2000. From 2000 to 2004 it rose each year to 12.7 in 2004.

Since the late 1960s, the poverty rate for people over 65 has fallen dramatically. The poverty rate for children has historically been somewhat higher than the overall poverty rate. The poverty rate for people in households headed by single women is significantly higher than the overall poverty rate.

Source: National Poverty Center

Lyndon Johnson launched the War on Poverty in January 1964. Ronald Reagan took office in January 1981.

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So looks like the War on Poverty had a significant impact as long as people believed it was a societal concern.

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