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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 2:27:13 PM

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Well Atheism is a scary subject, it's end of the world stuff.

Telling someone in the west that god doesn't exist is like telling someone they aren't that special just lucky. Telling someone in a third world nation that god doesn't exist is like telling someone all that preying isn't going to promote you to a first world lifestyle. It is like forcing them to surrender to their fate without even the costless weapon of prayer.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 2:30:59 PM

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quote:

And all I ask in return is to also BE LEFT ALONE. But it just doesn't happen. Oh wait, there's the doorbell. Two well dressed men in ties. Oy, the Jehovah's Witnesses. You know, I really don't recall the last time atheists went door to door trying to spread the word. Did I miss that movement? Please, I just really want to be left alone to do my good deeds and live out my one life on this planet with my rights protected politically and legally. Is this really too much to ask!

I don't know anyone, of any religion or lack there of, who has ever been glad to see JW's at the door.

Asking them if you can tell them of your god, Lucifer, seems to make em go away though.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 2:32:11 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Well Atheism is a scary subject, it's end of the world stuff.

Telling someone in the west that god doesn't exist is like telling someone they aren't that special just lucky. Telling someone in a third world nation that god doesn't exist is like telling someone all that preying isn't going to promote you to a first world lifestyle. It is like forcing them to surrender to their fate without even the costless weapon of prayer.

Here is the thing. I am not interested in "converting" anyone who believes in god to atheism. If people feel the need to have religion in their lives, so be it.

I just want to be left alone. By this, I mean I want my freedoms protected politically and legally. And I just do not want to be confronted by those who believe, and I do not want my rights restricted by narrow definitions based on any religion.

I leave people free to practice their religion - why can't they leave me in peace, too. But they can't because for many religions, the practice of their religion means committing to convert others to their faith. So I just can't be left alone.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 2:36:06 PM

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Telling them you're Catholic works well, too!

(Only 144K JW's will make it to heaven, right? How do they know for sure that they are of the select?)

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 2:36:44 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

And all I ask in return is to also BE LEFT ALONE. But it just doesn't happen. Oh wait, there's the doorbell. Two well dressed men in ties. Oy, the Jehovah's Witnesses. You know, I really don't recall the last time atheists went door to door trying to spread the word. Did I miss that movement? Please, I just really want to be left alone to do my good deeds and live out my one life on this planet with my rights protected politically and legally. Is this really too much to ask!

I don't know anyone, of any religion or lack there of, who has ever been glad to see JW's at the door.

Asking them if you can tell them of your god, Lucifer, seems to make em go away though.

Well, if you feel that way about JWs, imagine how we atheists feel about believers generally! I'm tired of Christians, of all denominations, and their religious leaders telling me I am going to go to hell. I'm tired of Muslims and their religious leaders feeling infidels must be eliminated. I'm tired of the moderates in each religion not standing up to the extremists in their own religions and taking on responsibility for that.

I understand the appeal of religion for most people. I happily support the concept of freedom of religion. But the religious will not leave me alone. And the sad fact is that they never will.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 2:53:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

You know, I really don't recall the last time atheists went door to door trying to spread the word.

K.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 3:01:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I just want to be left alone. By this, I mean I want my freedoms protected politically and legally. And I just do not want to be confronted by those who believe, and I do not want my rights restricted by narrow definitions based on any religion.

I leave people free to practice their religion - why can't they leave me in peace, too. But they can't because for many religions, the practice of their religion means committing to convert others to their faith. So I just can't be left alone.

In the UK we tend to leave each other well alone when it comes to that. Apart from recently there has been some bus advertising by both sides which has been a bit childish.

I guess the problem is: most religions have a code people are supposed to live by and as part of that Christians amongst others they are told to spread the word. We just have to be tolerant by understanding that annoying aspect is part of who they are (since their faith forces them to have an opinion on your life). Atheist's on the other hand haven't been told to do anything by anyone (fictional or otherwise).

Where to draw the line is if religious people start to curb your freedoms rather than just have an opinion but then I suppose opinions can lead to curbing of freedoms. It's tricky.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/15/2012 3:06:50 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 3:20:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Matthew 25:

quote:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?

If I beat the crap outta you, rob you, and leave you in the gutter - I am responsible for that.
If I were one who comes along, finds you beaten and robbed and do nothing where it's within my power and ability to do something I have shirked my responsibility.

To which are you referring within the context of being responsible? To which was I referring? Are they the same?

Ask the Samaritan who didn't want to pass by on the other side of the road.
(And I was asking specifically about your comment about the homeless guy sleeping in the gutter not being your problem. Christ says that he is in the chunk of scripture I quoted. If that's too difficult a point for you to answer, maybe you should put me on ignore instead of splitting hairs to cover your contempt for your Lord's advice?)

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 5/15/2012 3:24:12 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 3:32:42 PM

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Yachtie, your original claim was:
"As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." (post #5)

Moonhead advanced a number of quotes from the Bible that suggest an interpretation at considerable variance to your claim above. Moonhead asked you:
"Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?" (post # 6)

Your response was, in my view, an exercise in sophistry:
"If I beat the crap outta you, rob you, and leave you in the gutter - I am responsible for that.
If I were one who comes along, finds you beaten and robbed and do nothing where it's within my power and ability to do something I have shirked my responsibility.
To which are you referring within the context of being responsible? To which was I referring? Are they the same? " (post #12)
Moonhead has posed a basic question, after offering persuasive evidence to rebut your original claim. Your response to this has been to attempt to obfuscate the notion of "responsibility" rather than address the points Moonhead raised. As things stand at the moment, you are losing this argument by default.

From where I sit, your response is wholly inadequate. Please respond directly to the question Moonhead put to you.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 3:35:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I didn't quote your entire post, but yes, I am sadly aware of all of this.

I wasn't, I hadn't realized that I should be lying when I go to a hospital to get equal medical care. Fuck, this isn't the sort of thing that should surprise me but somehow it did.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 3:45:25 PM

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The church says I am Catholic, and Catholic I am while in hospital.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 3:46:19 PM

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quote:

I found this a very informative book on the history of Doubt

I hadn't heard about that, and it sounds fascinating. Thanks, Vincent!

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 3:51:48 PM

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"God is great!"

Does the previous statement offend you? It shouldn't, unless you believe that God is awful.

To a person that doesn't believe in the existence of "God", there's nothing offensive about that statement.

Now, if that statement is offensive to you, you're not an Atheist. You're a person that has an opinion about the nature of "God". I don't know that there's an established name for this kind of person but, a lot of them tend to identify as "Atheist".

There's an interesting flaw in English that I've noticed; I'll send a message to a lady on this site, she'll look at my profile and respond with: "I don't believe in polyamory. Good luck 2 u". Well, my profile doesn't ask anyone to believe in it or not.

No, what this imaginary lady was trying to say was: "I don't practice polyamory". You see, this little ... misnomer of English can mean something huge when we add a different word to the sentence (God).

quote:

God is great!

I don't believe in god.

quote:

God is great!

No he isn't. He's a liar. He's a concept invented by ...

Now, seriously, which quote is an Atheist and which one is an Anti-Deist or an Anti-Theist, if you will?

As with a lot of situations, miscommunication is causing a good portion of this issue. So many people have said: "I don't believe in God" and mistakenly labeled themselves as "Atheist" that Christians have been conditioned to hear: "I don't believe in your god and he sucks and I'll tell you why ..."

That's not all of the problem but, I think with a little honest reflection, we can see that it is a part of the problem.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 4:05:07 PM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I just want to be left alone. By this, I mean I want my freedoms protected politically and legally. And I just do not want to be confronted by those who believe, and I do not want my rights restricted by narrow definitions based on any religion.

I leave people free to practice their religion - why can't they leave me in peace, too. But they can't because for many religions, the practice of their religion means committing to convert others to their faith. So I just can't be left alone.

In the UK we tend to leave each other well alone when it comes to that. Apart from recently there has been some bus advertising by both sides which has been a bit childish.

I guess the problem is: most religions have a code people are supposed to live by and as part of that Christians amongst others they are told to spread the word. We just have to be tolerant by understanding that annoying aspect is part of who they are (since their faith forces them to have an opinion on your life). Atheist's on the other hand haven't been told to do anything by anyone (fictional or otherwise).

Where to draw the line is if religious people start to curb your freedoms rather than just have an opinion but then I suppose opinions can lead to curbing of freedoms. It's tricky.

it's that old " the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" shit really. As an atheist I am happy to go about my day, I'll hold a door open for an old lady and I will put a pound in a pot for whatever charity is hanging around outside my local supermarket.
I am not challenging anyone, or trying to change anything by my atheism. Happy days, then I see a news article where a doctor has been attacked for working in an abortion clinic and some Asian girl has been raped and murdered for refusing an arranged marriage and I think, hang on, not challenging and not opposing isn't going to leave a stalemate, it will end up with the religious faction, whatever the religion is, winning and taking over my freedoms and the freedoms of others and that is not right.
Atheists have to fight back, Dawkins is a bit of a twat as he leaves no wriggle room( I think he is right btw) and a comprimise is always going to be the way this goes but to find an equal footing both sides have to be able to speak their mind and at the moment I feel the atheists do too much shoulder shrugging and not enough shouting

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 4:12:32 PM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

"God is great!"

Does the previous statement offend you? It shouldn't, unless you believe that God is awful.

To a person that doesn't believe in the existence of "God", there's nothing offensive about that statement.

Now, if that statement is offensive to you, you're not an Atheist. You're a person that has an opinion about the nature of "God". I don't know that there's an established name for this kind of person but, a lot of them tend to identify as "Atheist".

There's an interesting flaw in English that I've noticed; I'll send a message to a lady on this site, she'll look at my profile and respond with: "I don't believe in polyamory. Good luck 2 u". Well, my profile doesn't ask anyone to believe in it or not.

No, what this imaginary lady was trying to say was: "I don't practice polyamory". You see, this little ... misnomer of English can mean something huge when we add a different word to the sentence (God).

quote:

God is great!

I don't believe in god.

quote:

God is great!

No he isn't. He's a liar. He's a concept invented by ...

Now, seriously, which quote is an Atheist and which one is an Anti-Deist or an Anti-Theist, if you will?

As with a lot of situations, miscommunication is causing a good portion of this issue. So many people have said: "I don't believe in God" and mistakenly labeled themselves as "Atheist" that Christians have been conditioned to hear: "I don't believe in your god and he sucks and I'll tell you why ..."

That's not all of the problem but, I think with a little honest reflection, we can see that it is a part of the problem.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

lol, nice try, I assume that poly thing isn't working for you?

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 4:20:14 PM

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FR

This has been a fascinating thread, and I thank ftp for the honesty and insight that went into her OP.

I suspect that many people do indeed find it daunting to contemplate a world where "Shit happens" with no rhyme or reason. I've felt that fear myself, and I do think one of the key sources of religion's appeal to folks is that it offers a way to make sense of things.

Two thoughts that I don't think anyone has mentioned:

(a) One powerful aspect of religion is its role in creating and maintaining community. I don't simply mean the kinship that can arise from shared belief, but the flesh-and-blood connections that arise out of seeing folks regularly, opening up one's heart and mind to them, undertaking volunteer work or service projects together, and being together (casseroles in hand) during times of joy and grief. I realize community can arise in other settings as well, of course.

(b) I get that one doesn't need God to be good, though it does strike me that the moral ideals many of us espouse--that life is good, that people should be treated with dignity, that societies should be just, and so forth--are empirically unprovable and therefore require (forgive me, but I can't resist) a "leap of faith."

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 4:29:45 PM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

This has been a fascinating thread, and I thank ftp for the honesty and insight that went into her OP.

I suspect that many people do indeed find it daunting to contemplate a world where "Shit happens" with no rhyme or reason. I've felt that fear myself, and I do think one of the key sources of religion's appeal to folks is that it offers a way to make sense of things.

Two thoughts that I don't think anyone has mentioned:

(a) One powerful aspect of religion is its role in creating and maintaining community. I don't simply mean the kinship that can arise from shared belief, but the flesh-and-blood connections that arise out of seeing folks regularly, opening up one's heart and mind to them, undertaking volunteer work or service projects together, and being together (casseroles in hand) during times of joy and grief. I realize community can arise in other settings as well, of course.

(b) I get that one doesn't need God to be good, though it does strike me that the moral ideals many of us espouse--that life is good, that people should be treated with dignity, that societies should be just, and so forth--are empirically unprovable and therefore require (forgive me, but I can't resist) a "leap of faith."

That is the saddest thing in all of this, that you need to say that at all. Why should you? it's just basic common sense to most people. At what point does anyone need the 10 commandmants to know whats right and wrong? Never I hope.
What the hell is wrong with people having somewhere welcoming and safe to go and talk to other kind people, nothing I hope.
Yet somehow atheists get told that they can't be part of this, what a load of bollocks

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 4:32:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
lol, nice try, I assume that poly thing isn't working for you?

Nah. It's working just fine. I was trying to point out the "laziness" with which a lot of people speak.

Maybe a better example:

Friend one: "Would you be best man at my wedding?"

Friend two: "I don't believe in marriage"

You don't believe in its existence (which is even more relevent, when the subject is "God) or you don't endorse/practice/participate in?

The easy, almost flippant answer of "I don't believe in god", when said by someone who actually has an axe to grind against god/religion, is no longer heard the same way as it once was (at least by me and some others I know).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 4:43:24 PM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
lol, nice try, I assume that poly thing isn't working for you?

Nah. It's working just fine. I was trying to point out the "laziness" with which a lot of people speak.

Maybe a better example:

Friend one: "Would you be best man at my wedding?"

Friend two: "I don't believe in marriage"

You don't believe in its existence (which is even more relevent, when the subject is "God) or you don't endorse/practice/participate in?

The easy, almost flippant answer of "I don't believe in god", when said by someone who actually has an axe to grind against god/religion, is no longer heard the same way as it once was (at least by me and some others I know).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I think you and some others you know need to have another think about the phrase " I don't believe in god"
I can't see any ambiguity there, there are no axes being ground, no philosophical nuances, it is just about not believing

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/15/2012 4:44:30 PM

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quote:

Jesus said, for instance, that the poor will be with us, always.

Plucking a Bible verse out of context is seldom a great idea, and that's particularly true for this one. Here's the whole story:

6Now when Jesus was in Bethany, at the home of Simon the leper, 7a woman came to Him with an alabaster vial of very costly perfume, and she poured it on His head as He reclined at the table. 8But the disciples were indignant when they saw this, and said, “Why this waste? 9“For this perfume might have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor.” 10But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you bother the woman? For she has done a good deed to Me. 11“For you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me. 12“For when she poured this perfume on My body, she did it to prepare Me for burial. 13“Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her.”

Jesus was not, by any stretch of the imagination, saying "Hey, it's okay that folks are poor." He was reminding the murmurers--with, I think, a bit of sarcasm--that there were ample opportunities to help the poor, if that were really their concern.

Now something I didn't know till researching this post tonight was that Jesus was also quoting Deuteronomy:

11“For the poor will never cease to be in the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.’

That context, coupled with Matthew 25 (which Moonhead quoted earlier in the thread) and the social justice themes that regularly arise in Scripture, make it awfully difficult, imho, to take Jesus' words/quote as an invitation or justification to shrug at the plight of the poor.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Yachtie)

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