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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 2:31:25 AM

bandit25

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Yeah, you need to suck it up and come clean. Two different worlds of trust, huh? Sorry, don't buy it. I don't see how your D/s realtionship is helping you be a better person. Uh, don't look now, but your entire post is nothing but a justification.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 2:58:17 AM

meatcleaver

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I'm not talking about me but an observation of a culture where 50-70% of people do not adhere to fidelity. To have some high minded morality while ignoring the truth of people's behaviour is a nonsense.

I think the majority of people do enter relationships with fidelity and honesty in mind but that is not how reality plays out and to ignore that is to ignore the truth one is so desperate for.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/9/2006 3:00:44 AM >

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 3:25:10 AM

dominiquethecat

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i think that whoever enters a relationship with fedelity in mind has just covered up reality so that blindness can help keep the lie alive

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 3:31:51 AM

ShiftedJewel

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I have to agree with what many others are saying. I've dated a married man once, he was honest with his wife about it, I know that for a fact because I met her. Any other circumstance... no way. I was the wife to an unfaithful husband, I know how it feels and wouldn't wish that on anyone. I cheated on my husband... the good ol' "what's good for the goose" theory. He asked me if I had, I said yes... he asked me with whom.. I told him. I sleep good knowing I'm being honest. The marriage I'm in now is wonderful. We have no secrets and can talk about anything. As Taggard said, it's great to be able to live in complete honesty and openness.

I really wish I could say that I understand those that say they don't want to leave the marriage because they truly love their spouse... but I can't. If you truly love them then you wouldn't have this overwhelming desire to rip their heart apart by lieing and cheating on them. And no, I didn't truly love the husband I cheated on... which turned out ok considering he didn't truly love me either. Don't do things like stay married for the sake of the nestlings... they aren't stupid, they see and understand a lot more then most give them credit for. Do you really want them to grow up and think it's "normal" for one spouse to cheat on the other?

Honesty is so much easier, you never have to remember when you lied and what about. Maybe I'm just lazy but that's way to much work as far as I'm concerned.

Jewel

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 3:39:27 AM

slavejali

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Desires can be very strong things, we can feel they are a part of our identity. Example: I need to live in this desire to be happy.

When we identify with our desires as our strongest reality, we can justify any action and choice we make...after all our happiness and sadness depend on it.

Trouble with desires though.............this too shall pass.

With all the desires we follow in the world, where ever we go, whatever we do....there is one thing that remains...we have to live with ourselves and the effects of our choices.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 3:56:33 AM

irishbynature

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So many insights into D/s...cheating, etc. I have read the posts, concur and respect many opinions.

However, they are opinions. I will not judge another based on something as fragile as marriage and decisions based on family. Each relationship, each situation is completely different from another. Just because you are a sub or Dom, does not make you held to a 'higher moral standard' than any vanilla, etc. Vanillas and D/s relationships face the same challenges....When a person is ready to speak openly with their spouse, then that is their choice. To each his/her own. Live and let live.

Submitted Respectfully to those who are "stuck" and respectfully to those making choices, and those who have already made their own personal choice in regard to their "situation'. Best wishes.
Irish

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 3:58:28 AM

agirl

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I wouldn't condemn a person for keeping their marriage intact and having *another life* also.

I wouldn't care to judge someone on the whys and wherefores of their choices. Relationships are SO complicated and the reasons for people being unhappy/unfaithful in them, are too. It's too easy to say *come clean*. It iSN'T always the *good, kind and noble* thing to do. It's a personal moral dilemma.

I certainly don't see that my personal moral code should be applied to anyone other than me.

When I stop being an imperfect person and always make the correct choices and decisons for all concerned and for myself, maybe I'll be in a position to judge other people.

agirl

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 4:01:25 AM

feastie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten

I am lying to protect him from the harsh pain of the truth that he cannot meet his wife's needs.

And just who are you to decide not only that he needs protection, but what he needs protecting from?  What is so important about an obviously bad marriage that it must not be ended?

I'm sorry, but this post IS a justification of your lying and cheating.  What happens when you split with your current dom? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to hide that kind of emotional wreckage?

I can say these things because I've lived the lie myself.  But I've also found the strength it took to end my marriage. (No, not for my cheating or his). My children were young, 7 and 4 when it happened and they are well-rounded, well-behaved kids to this day.

I think you need to spend much more time in introspection. Discovering who you are in D/s is only part of your journey.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 4:05:30 AM

slavejali

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I think most anyone, if given the choice, would rather face the reality of a situation and be given the power of choice about what to do about it, than remain ignorant and have their choices taken away from them through secrecy and deceit.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 4:19:52 AM

agirl

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What people do at any given time, how they react and behave is changeable.

What seems the *only way* at one time may not seem so later in life...I think it's shortsighted to judge someone on choices made . It doesn't necessarily define them as a person.

I don't think I can possibly *know* how I'd behave in someone elses set of circumstances......all I can *know* is how I THINK I'd behave, and that, frankly, isn't enough to judge.

agirl

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 4:33:37 AM

irishbynature

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

I think most anyone, if given the choice, would rather face the reality of a situation and be given the power of choice about what to do about it, than remain ignorant and have their choices taken away from them through secrecy and deceit.

Could be...however, in a not so perfect world, 'face the reality' means a different reality from ours...it's their reality and that reality might be one that is of secrecy. It does not mean they like it or enjoy it...it means.....it is their reality and not mine, or yours.

Wish it was just easy for everyone (smiles),
Irish

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 4:39:54 AM

sskitten

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(fast reply - to all)

I repeat that my OP is in no way meant to be a justification for cheating. I really did not want this to become a thread about the evils of cheating, though from my experiences here on collarme I knew it was inevitable. I also repeat that I do not expect to change any minds. I know we all feel passionately about what we believe.

I am making the point that for *some* people, including myself, even though I have chosen to cheat in my marriage, for now, even though it ruins me in YOUR eyes for any kind of trust, inside myself I know I can be trusted in this world of D/s. Even if other people do not make a distinction, I do.

The day that I cannot be trusted in this world is the day I will leave *both* worlds - the world of my marriage and the world of D/s. If I cannot be trusted in this world then that makes it no better than my marriage and makes me a low-life in every aspect of my life and even I would hate myself then. I don't hate myself quite yet, thank you.

I don't expect you to believe me (let alone respect me, yeah right); you've made it clear you don't. I can only say that this is my life. I do live in two worlds of trust. I'm not saying I like it or feel good about it. I'm just saying it's possible. Cheating on my husband has not destroyed my sense of honor in other realms. Yes, it does make me feel like a hypocrite every day of my life. But that would be another thread. I know you've said what I've written is my attempt to justify cheating; it is not. I did not start a thread about justifying cheating. I started a thread about trust in two worlds. For those of you who have said you can't trust someone like me in either world; fine, don't. But please don't turn this into a thread about the decisions you think I should make in my other world. Just say you don't trust me here and leave it at that.

I am writing this post because I hold a point of view that is felt in many hearts here but not spoken of much (if at all) and I just got tired of reading remarks in another thread where the assumption was made that one who cheats on a husband can never be trusted. Most recently, those remarks happened to be a thread about a specific person's situation (it usually is) and I didn't want to hijack it so I started this one. I ask you please to contain your responses to the specific topic here. Again, if you judge me - I can deal with that. I judge myself harshly too. But I don't want to start talking about that. Really. I'm just trying to say that I am happy and relieved that I can live part of my life in total honesty, and this is my own reality - that I can be trusted in this world though at this time I am not living a life of trust in my marriage.

Kitten

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:06:30 AM

twicehappy

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I have read all the previous post, some of which like so many have gotten to be here on cm are so politically correct i want to scream. I.E.; her pain and your pain are different, everybody has different values and that’s ok, nobody has the right to judge others, we have our reasons, etc.....on and on.

Granted i am not in her shoes nor would i ever allow myself to be in them.

I am taking a hard line here.

The basic premise at the opening was that the statements

"Once a cheater, always a cheater."
"If he's lying to his wife, sooner or later he will lie to you."

are not always true due to the then elaborated upon circumstances.

Through out the rest of the OP's post she went on to explain how she was only doing what she doing due to reasons A.,B.,C., thereby attempting to make us believe that "once a cheater always a cheater" was untrue.

To my mind anyone capable of justifying cheating due to one set of circumstances is perfectly capable of justifying them in another or the next set of circumstances as well. In reality the statement” once a cheater always a cheater" has nothing to do with the circumstances surrounding the offense. It does have a great deal to do with the mindset of the cheater.

Irregardless of the circumstances you are either the type of person who can justify lying as the means to your ends or you are not. PERIOD.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:20:25 AM

sabswife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten
And this is how and why I live in two worlds of trust.

Sorry to be blunt, but this is a load of crap. You are unsatisfied in your vanilla marriage so you lie and cheat. You are a liar and a cheater and to think you live in "two worlds" is just a bit of self-delusion you need to face yourself in the mirror in the morning.

I speak from experience here. I lied and I cheated and I told myself it was for some higher purpose and that my wife would never understand that I really needed this. I didn't want to risk my marriage, even though the lies and the cheating had destroyed any real relationship I had or could have with my ex-wife.

What you are doing is not noble and it is not necessary. It is unfair to your spouse and, in all honesty, it is unfair to yourself. There is nothing more wonderful than to live your life in honesty with all of those you love (and who love you)...and nothing worse than sharing a bed with someone who doesn't even know the real you.

The sooner you realize that this web of self-denial you have woven is nothing but a self-destructive affirmation, the sooner you can get out of your unsatisfying marriage (and let your husband get out of what must be a rather bad marriage) and the sooner you can get on with your life.

Life is too short to share it with someone you can't be honest with, and it is way too short to spend it with someone who is not honest with you.

Taggard

i firmly believe once a cheater always a cheater, but that is said in response to people getting back together or staying with the one they cheated on. if you cheat or they cheat - its not a relationship that should be maintained. if you love someone the way you should, you couldn't ever do that to them.

it doesnt mean you can't move on to a new relationship in which you are fulfilled in and never cheat, it just means that the one you cheated in is over.

tho this is from personal experience with my lying cheating selfish ex husband who never had the balls to tell me he wasn't happy and instead kept me living a lie for 10 years only hurting me more in the end, and doing much more emotional damage, then he ever could have had he been honest in the first place.

i spent many years after the first time he cheated blaming myself and saying it must have been me, or he made a mistake and he learned from it.. i would completely lose it on anyone who said that very line "once a cheater, always a cheater." in the end though, after another 6 years.. i know they were all right.

god bless the broken road though, because it led me to Him.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:20:42 AM

Soquili

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten

(fast reply - to all)

I am writing this post because I hold a point of view that is felt in many hearts here but not spoken of much (if at all) and I just got tired of reading remarks in another thread where the assumption was made that one who cheats on a husband can never be trusted. Most recently, those remarks happened to be a thread about a specific person's situation (it usually is) and I didn't want to hijack it so I started this one. I ask you please to contain your responses to the specific topic here. Again, if you judge me - I can deal with that. I judge myself harshly too. But I don't want to start talking about that. Really. I'm just trying to say that I am happy and relieved that I can live part of my life in total honesty, and this is my own reality - that I can be trusted in this world though at this time I am not living a life of trust in my marriage.

Kitten

Having been through this from the husband/bf/so side several times over the years I found that the fact that I couldn't fulfill my mates desires hurt, but the fact that they lied to me directly about it hurt more than the fact they wanted someone else. You can do as you choose with your life, it's none of my business. I would rather have my partner tell me they need something they can only get with someone else than lie to me that everything is fine with our relationship. If you aren't finding what you want or need in the current one then what you choose to do is up to you, but I would hope that at some point you would talk to your mate about your needs that aren't being fulfilled in the relationship. Honest communication is the most important part of -any- relationship in my eyes.

Your life, your choices. May you make the right ones for you -and- them.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:22:53 AM

meatcleaver

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General point. (Not a reply to twicehappy)

Has anyone been in a long term relationship and was quite happy and content and not looking for anything outside the relationship, then suddenly met someone and immediately fell for them in a big big way? Hell, it's confusing because it wasn't supposed to happen. The solid foundations of your life suddenly start to crack. Do you pretend that your feelings are still the same or do you throw everything away for what could be nothing more than a week's infatuation. Maybe it really is the love of your life but what about the kids? What about the roof over their heads, their schooling and what happened to your partner? Yesterday you were in love with them and now today you apparently love someone else!!

Life isn't easy as mouthing platitudes.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/9/2006 5:23:42 AM >

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:29:54 AM

sabswife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General point. (Not a reply to twicehappy)

Has anyone been in a long term relationship and was quite happy and content and not looking for anything outside the relationship, then suddenly met someone and immediately fell for them in a big big way? Hell, it's confusing because it wasn't supposed to happen. The solid foundations of your life suddenly start to crack. Do you pretend that your feelings are still the same or do you throw everything away for what could be nothing more than a week's infatuation. Maybe it really is the love of your life but what about the kids? What about the roof over their heads, their schooling and what happened to your partner? Yesterday you were in love with them and now today you apparently love someone else!!

Life isn't easy as mouthing platitudes.

all i can say is this, that although i was faithful to my ex husband i noticed other people throughout our entire marriage. now that i am with my Dom, nobody else exists.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:37:45 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
Irregardless of the circumstances you are either the type of person who can justify lying as the means to your ends or you are not. PERIOD.

This is getting right down to the nuts and bolts of it. You can take cheating right out of the equation and replace it with a multitude of other things and if you fit into the above statement it defines who you are in many ways. The really sad part is that people who are capable of this kind of justification don't often seem to realize that regardless of what they are justifying or how they do it...the bottom line is that not only are they lying to others, they are lying to themselves.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:53:35 AM

MistressTheaZ

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Reading through the posts, I tend to agree that each set of circumstances is different, and for this reason, I do not feel it right to judge. Further to that, I identify with how it feels to be in a 'french-vanilla' or nilla-esque relationship with someone you care very deeply for, and yet...something is missing. Unless one has come to terms with that side of oneself and truly been honest with *themselves* about what they want and need, who they are, and what that means, resolution within the marriage/relationship isn't usually possible. How can it be possible to take the steps when one isn't sure of the direction? I've had that muddle of feelings, and while I feel forward movement and a chance for both partners to be happy (together or apart) is necessary, it isn't My place to tell someone they are a horrible person for being muddled.

In My last long-term relationship, (basically, a marriage without the piece of paper, *snort*), I was happy to find what I felt at the time was potential for long-term committed kink. Within a few years, his desires to explore and continue within kink had faded, and instead became ammunition for resentful arguments and judgemental tirades. What We had once shared then divided Us, and the distance between Us only grew. Soon, it appeared that We shared a home, finances and the like, but led two different lives. Leaving him, considering all I had invested into the relationship, meant certain financial devastation and upheaval in addition to all the ugliness and volatility that would follow. Considering walking through hell, even if a chance at Heaven awaits on the other side, still means you must walk through hell first.

I sat on the precipice with that realization for about six months before having a revelation one day after work: I didn't want to go home. I didn't want to be at home. I didn't want that to be MY home, anymore. So, I ended things, waded through the expected, horrific fallout, spent about a year in court, and am still recovering from it, but at least I am free to be happy and search for what completes Me.

However, I do not judge others who are having difficulty making that decision for themselves. The gravity of it can only be more crushing with pending divorce and child custody, two issues I did not have to deal with Myself. For these reasons, My empathy towards those still 'stuck' remains.

JMO.

~Thea

Edited to note: with regards to the cheating aspect, I can take no stance other than what I felt and what I would accordingly do, Myself. I have been cheated on, and know how that feels. Likewise, I have been tempted when unhappy and trapped within circumstance, and have felt the pull towards escaping unhappiness at home via....kinky extracurricular activity. Cheating is not My way, being fairly solitary in nature and preferring to sort through one thing at a time, but I can still understand where needs and desires conflict with the reality of attachment and obligation. Again, JMO.

< Message edited by MistressTheaZ -- 6/9/2006 6:14:56 AM >

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 5:59:23 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

I have read all the previous post, some of which like so many have gotten to be here on cm are so politically correct i want to scream. I.E.; her pain and your pain are different, everybody has different values and that’s ok, nobody has the right to judge others, we have our reasons, etc.....on and on.

To my mind anyone capable of justifying cheating due to one set of circumstances is perfectly capable of justifying them in another or the next set of circumstances as well. In reality the statement” once a cheater always a cheater" has nothing to do with the circumstances surrounding the offense. It does have a great deal to do with the mindset of the cheater.

Irregardless of the circumstances you are either the type of person who can justify lying as the means to your ends or you are not. PERIOD.

It isn't always *politically correct* to take a non-judgemental stance either.

Each individual makes their OWN mind up about what they feel they are able to judge or not, as the case may be.

I don't think that I am able to judge anyone's choices because I'm not IN their circumstances. I can apply my own code to myself and my own life because that is the only one I can claim to have any real knowledge of. It's not being politically correct, it's a personal viewpoint.

I would be inclined to agree that if a person is capable of lying in one set of circumstances, it's possible they can in another. But that doesn't make me think I can judge....How can I?.....I really don't know the circumstances.

I probably wouldn't post an *explanation* of any personal moral dilemma myself, mainly because if I was secure in my choices, I wouldn't have a desire to invite other people's judgements and thoughts. I only have to justify my life to myself.

agirl

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