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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 4:54:14 AM

spankmepink11

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

I've never seen submission as a special gift, if its part of your personality all you are doing is expressing and sharing your self with another.

Saying that though, when someone smiles at me, I see that as a gift....so perhaps any positive thing we share of ourselves is a gift to the recipient.

I know to be in a relationship with a dominant person is a gift to me..and they are just sharing themselves too...if it had to be manufactured and became too much like hard work sharing their dominant personality with me and so the person saw it like some gift they were giving that took some terrible great effort...I wouldnt see that as a gift at all but a burden they were laying me with..wouldnt be conducive to a healthy relationship in my book.

Jali that was very nicely said and i could not agree more. I believe we are all "gifts" to those whose lives we affect in positive ways, just as those who touch our own lives are gifts to us.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 5:03:04 AM

meatcleaver

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General point.

Germaine Greer said at the New York Town Hall debate in 1970 (I watched it some years later.) 'It is irrelevent who is doing the fucking and who is being fucked..' (her words exact words I believe), I don't often agree with her but I have to agree on this point as it makes so much sense. (in regard to consensual sex etc.). It is quite obvious to me that subs want to control their own lives even if that means temporarily giving up control in a relationship they are happy with. I just had to air my frustration at that phrase.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 5:15:40 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I keep coming across this phrase 'submission is a gift'. To me it is arrant nonsense, if submission is a gift then domination is a gift. At best submission is a loan while a relationship is sound.

The sub wouldn't be submitting if s/he isn't getting anything out of a relationship in return, it takes two to tango so basically what is happening is an exchange of favours.

Am I right or am I wrong?

I wouldn't even call it an exchange.... To me it's a Sharing of ourselves with another. I don't see it as a gift either

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 5:18:18 AM

talibahh

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for me, submission itself is not a *gift* i give as such. It's a part of me, who i really am deep inside.

The way i see it, it is my Master who gives me the gift of His Dominance and in doing so, allows me to be who i really am and fulfills my needs and yearnings to submit and serve.

Yes, it is an exchange, because we both get satisfaction and needs/desires fulfilled from this. He needs to Dominate, Own and control like i need to submit and feel Owned and controlled by Him. So i guess you could say it's an exchange of gifts, in a way, i give Him me to Dominate and Own, and in return He gives me the freedom to be who and what i really am... thus my sig line.

tali

< Message edited by talibahh -- 6/9/2006 5:30:03 AM >

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 5:59:30 AM

foxnotinsox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I keep coming across this phrase 'submission is a gift'. To me it is arrant nonsense, if submission is a gift then domination is a gift. At best submission is a loan while a relationship is sound.

The sub wouldn't be submitting if s/he isn't getting anything out of a relationship in return, it takes two to tango so basically what is happening is an exchange of favours.

Am I right or am I wrong?

You are neither right nor wrong .. you are simply stating your opinion, which is a choice. There is NO right or wrong, only preferences, reasonings, and different perspectives.

For myself, I see both domination and submission as gifts .. both in the sense of being gifted AND in the sense of the spirit of giving.

There are those out there who are gifted in that they are natural .. versus having to work at it heheh .. They just know and respond to each other, without having to have it spoon fed to them.

Some view a gift in general to be a one time thing .. say a birthday present .. yet there are gifts that keep on giving. This is the way I see the "the gift of submission" .. not as a one-off, rather say like donating to your favourite charity through payroll deductions. You are compelled to give .. for the *greater* good =) .. and if in the future you feel hmm disillusioned with the particular charitable organization you have been giving to (I dunno, perhaps they were misusing funds?? <grins>), then the giving may stop.

Why I don't understand is those that speak of gifts and giving as it is a negative thing. No, bitchiness is not a gift as it's not for "the greater good" .. it's a put-down.

However, gentleness, a smile, politeness, a kind word to a stranger, allowing merging traffic to enter .. all these things would be gifts as they come from the heart, are given freely, and not vindictive in nature.

Sure, a gift at times can be a bad thing .. say when the giving is unidirectional and draining, or <grins> "s/he gave me ____" [fill in the blank with your favourite STD heheh]

I have choice with my gift .. no, I would not give it to [read here enter into an exchange with] a vanilla guy, as he would not know what to do with it. Nor would I give it to an arrogant b*stard who parades around like a dom, as he would abuse it .. hmm and nor to a sex hound (Horny Net Geeks, Wankers, and the like), for they would cheapen it.

OK .. final analogy and then I must do some gardening .. hmm and apropo as it is with regards to plants =)

This gift of submission (and its counterpart of dominance) is like giving a plant the first time you go over to a person's house. It could be a plastic plant (hard, durable, pretty, ornate, perhaps cheap), a houseplant (that may die if not watered and fed regularly), or maybe even a tree that grows sturdy and strong. It could be herbs, flowers or vegetables .. annuals that die after their season or perennials that may hibernate when its cold, yet dazzle with colourful blooms with the heating of the earth.

So, yes I believe submission is a gift .. to be tended and cherished .. as domination is a gift. Sure, some may not see it as such, as thus I would probably not give it to them either heheh

Have a wonderful day!

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 6:07:34 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: At best submission is a loan while a relationship is sound.

The sub wouldn't be submitting if s/he isn't getting anything out of a relationship in return, it takes two to tango so basically what is happening is an exchange of favours.

Am I right or am I wrong?

While I agree with you that submission (and dominance) are not Gifts given - I don't agree that the power exchange involved in an exchange of Favors. It would be much more closely akin to an exchange of Earned Privilages - and yes, I definately consider the "right" to give me an order to be a PRIVILAGE - one which is easier to lose than it is to gain.

Things of this nature actually CAN'T be "gifts" when you look at the generally accepted meaning of Gift as a concept. A gift is something which is given which cannot be taken back/reclaimed without dishonoring the giver. While people can (and frequently DO) give gifts expecting that in some manner at some time the person they "gave" to is going to somehow do something for/give something to THEM - they don't give a gift and then later say "No, you've pissed me off, things aren't working back, give me back my... (insert whatever here)"

A submissive - or dominant - within a relationship CAN "take back" their submission/dominance towards their partner. And they can do so without being looked upon as untrustworthy/dishonorable. You don't suddenly become an "indian giver" when you remove yourself from a relationship and quit being obedient to a person you're no longer involved with.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 6:13:19 AM

GddssBella

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G'morning all:

I honestly don't know who coined that silly phrase. If I believed that, then how could the power exchange exist? A gift is not reciprocal. It's something given away, gratis, without expectation of return. To me, it negates the d/s interplay. I guess some folks need to validate their submission. As if this makes it a grander thing altogether. Piffle. Everyone who enters into a d/s relationship has something to offer and rightfully expects to receive in return. It's a trade really.

So mc, I agree with you. No, it's not a gift. Although I like mine wrapped in pvc. *wink*

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 6:17:36 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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You know, this is just the "uber romantic ideal that will not die." I give up on trying to explain that because no matter what the hell you call it, if you want a relationship to work in the long term, you've gotta put the same work into it that every other person has to put into it, the same energy, the same skills.

So call it a gift till you get a coronary for all I care- just understand how people will perceive that and your little "gift" isn't going to insulate you from anything that a normal vanilla person has to deal with.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_285542/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#285542
If submission is a 'gift.' what's dominance?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_199872/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#199872
The Gift you give to yourself

http://www.collarchat.com/m_195087/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#195087
A gift???

http://www.collarchat.com/m_137582/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#137582
The Domly Gift

http://www.collarchat.com/m_135667/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#135667
Why do so many view submission as a gift?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_128811/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#128811
Do you consider your submission to someone a gift?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_118674/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#118674
Gift or not...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_109097/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#109097
The "gift" of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_26446/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#26446
On the gift of submission

http://www.collarchat.com/m_17487/mpage_1/key_gift%252Csubmission/tm.htm#17487
my thoughts on the "gift" of submission

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 6:55:09 AM

ownedgirlie

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I do not believe submission is a gift either. Every time I see that phrase I envision someone with an over-inflated ego, thinking how wonderful she (he) is, and how lucky her (his) Dom is to have her (him), blah blah blah....So much for humility. A Dom to receive such a gift should be grateful and endebted...right? ~grin~

Submission is my need, and my inner drive. If anything is a gift, it is his gift to me that he fosters my susbmission as he does, and allows me the opportunity to express who I am with such a wonderful man.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 7:35:01 AM

MrDiscipline44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I do not believe submission is a gift either. Every time I see that phrase I envision someone with an over-inflated ego, thinking how wonderful she (he) is, and how lucky her (his) Dom is to have her (him), blah blah blah....So much for humility. A Dom to receive such a gift should be grateful and endebted...right? ~grin~

I couldn't agree with you more on this.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 7:41:25 AM

pinkee

Posts: 487
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

I've never seen submission as a special gift, if its part of your personality all you are doing is expressing and sharing your self with another.

Saying that though, when someone smiles at me, I see that as a gift....so perhaps any positive thing we share of ourselves is a gift to the recipient.

I know to be in a relationship with a dominant person is a gift to me..and they are just sharing themselves too...if it had to be manufactured and became too much like hard work sharing their dominant personality with me and so the person saw it like some gift they were giving that took some terrible great effort...I wouldnt see that as a gift at all but a burden they were laying me with..wouldnt be conducive to a healthy relationship in my book.

i agree...but it seems to me mostly Doms and Masters who use this dread phrase (in Their profiles). It's just a metaphor; it's harmless. If Y/you don't feel comfortable with it, don't use it. Personally i don't care for it but i don't break it off with any Man who says it.

pinkee

< Message edited by pinkee -- 6/9/2006 7:45:30 AM >

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 7:49:28 AM

losttreasure

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The idea of submission being a gift has always bothered me. I can understand the idea behind it, but I can't agree with the complete concept anymore than I can agree wholly with submission being a personality trait.

Everyone has the capacity to submit, and in fact all people do to one degree or another, and for different reasons. I believe that submissives in the world of BDSM are ones for whom submission is particularly appealing on both an emotional and physical level.

As for being a gift, as I state in my profile, I do not carry my submission around to hand out at will. Nor, do I consider it a part of my personality or who I am. I do not submit to everyone or in every circumstance.

To submit IS an action. How I feel about that act and what level of satisfaction I receive is what is dependent upon the person for whom my submission is directed.

For the purposes of seeking a lifestyle partner, if I choose carefully and am fortunate, I have the emotional and physical pleasure of my submission being inspired and eagerly accepted. If I choose carefully and am fortunate, my submission will continue to inspire and satisfy my partner and we both enjoy a mutually satisfying relationship.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 7:55:18 AM

OsideGirl

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I hate this phrase. It's at the very least a "gift exchange" since God knows he's giving as much to me as I'm giving to him.

In some cases, I think it's a white elephant gift exchange.You know, a gift worth under $20, that gets passed around and finally ends up with someone who says, "Oh, yeah, a box with two coffee mugs and some Oreos is pretty good."

What happens if the gift doesn't fit? To you get a gift receipt with that, so you can exchange it for the right size or get a store credit so you can pick out your own gift?

What if he decides to "re-gift" your gift?

Does that mean that the BDSM D/s checklists are Gift Registries?

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 8:17:54 AM

Ceyx

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Hmm. I view my miss' submission as a gift in the sense that it's precious and that she chose to give it to me.

I'm not sure what's wrong with this metaphor. We don't give gifts randomly; we give them to people who have somehow garnered our affection or admiration. Looking at our dynamic from her perspective, I suspect that miss would call my dominance a gift in the same sense.

The 'permanence' of a gift doesn't really change anything. Miss is mine for good and all, but if someone gave you a trip to the Caribbean for your birthday, would you say that it wasn't a gift because your enjoyment of it was only temporary?

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 8:24:28 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I keep coming across this phrase 'submission is a gift'. To me it is arrant nonsense, if submission is a gift then domination is a gift. At best submission is a loan while a relationship is sound.

The sub wouldn't be submitting if s/he isn't getting anything out of a relationship in return, it takes two to tango so basically what is happening is an exchange of favours.

Am I right or am I wrong?

In short, meatcleaver, I think you are right.

I've wondered if this phrase didn't arise from a desire to sell books and how-to information that seems aimed either at tops (with information of how to do an activity) or at subs (focusing on feelings, protection, etc). It seems like a reflection of the idea that tops/doms are all action and in control while the bottoms/subs are out of control and passive. They give themselves, like a gift, and then the receiver makes the decisions from then.

I don't think submissive or domination is a gift -- I think its just an expression of ourselves. We hopefully find partner(s) to be this part of ourselves with and that's a mutual thing.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/9/2006 8:26:41 AM >

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 8:27:14 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ceyx

if someone gave you a trip to the Caribbean for your birthday, would you say that it wasn't a gift because your enjoyment of it was only temporary?

They couldn't actually take the trip back once I'd been on it so it is a gift. The question is, would they want something in return?

Sub or dom, there is an exchange. I used the word favours but one could use another term but in a relationship both parties give and take so its no more a gift than dominance but I wouldn't call it a gift because the sub (rightly) expects something back in return.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 8:28:41 AM

champagnewishes

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It sure blows my theory that i am the gift that keeps on giving

No i don't think it is a gift...although one may be a gifted submissive just as one could be a gifted pianist....

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 8:30:35 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

I guess a gift is only a gift when its freely given without any expectation of anything in return.

This is an interesting idea, slavejali, and feeds into my thoughts of where the phrase came from.

Maybe it feeds into the idea/desire that it is all about the dominant and that the submissive is totally absorbed into the dominant?

Could it also be about combating the stereotype that Ds is abuse? If you give a gift, that's your choice, ideally, or it wouldn't be a gift.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 8:34:48 AM

Tikkiee

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Submission is a gift? Did you know that gifts can be returned or exchanged at the whim of the receiver?

Personally, I would hesitate to give something so important only to have the 'giftee' decide that it did not suit his/her purposes. Just my outlook on a silly phrase.

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RE: Submission is a gift!!!??? - 6/9/2006 8:36:28 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Could it also be about combating the stereotype that Ds is abuse? If you give a gift, that's your choice, ideally, or it wouldn't be a gift.

I think it's just a pretty romantic flower to make subs feel all special and cool about themselves. It's a way to make it safe and special in their minds.

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