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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:55:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann
I think there was a misunderstanding between us on that statement of mine. I do remember and was not intending to state otherwise. I also was not including you in those I said I was challenging. My apologies if you felt lumped into that group.

I didn't. Just trying to give you a glimpse of the way I see things.

The thread, originally, was asking about the difference between a Dominant and a sadist. The authority part, to Me, is the Dominant part. The boy who sits at My feet and within My four walls, is completely up to My authority. Since I see it that way for Me, I have to return the same in kind.

I only have a very few posts to go by, but I think you and I are different in that you beat her for punishment. I beat My boy at My whim. My sadism has nothing to do with cause and effect on his part. He may enjoy it. He may just have to take it because that is part of the collar entails. That's the sadist.

Having been a Dominant since My first dynamic, one who was not a sadist, I see the distinct difference between the two. It's the Dominant in Me, the authoritarian, that deals with punishment.

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:05:34 PM

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Using FR:

I *am* one of those people who believes that the use of physical punishment can turn abusive, and should not be used on a regular basis.

You know that saying: "Absolute power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. " I believe it applies to the overly strict and overly sadistic punishment dynamic.

You see, if a sadist ENJOYS punishing his property, well then he *is* going to find infractions so that he can have the pleasure of punishment. No one is perfect. I can easily see a dynamic in which the s-type is given so many rules to obey, that 100% obedience is impossible. TO ME, this represents a failure in the relationship, since the s-type HAS to fail, and get punished. AND, of course, if the D-type enjoys it, well he or she is going to be quite naturally drawn to creating ever more situations were punishment ensues. B/c they like it and they can.

(In the case where the s-type enjoys the punishment, sorry, that's not punishment to me. That's funishment. That someone needs to dress is up as punishment in order to get their domly rocks off is AOKAY with me, I love roleplay myself. But, shesh, call a spade a spade.)

Another issue I have with a physical punishment dynamic, is that entire "I do it b/c I can." Yes, I know the rush of having complete and total control over someone and being able to do whatever on earth you want to. It's yummy, I admit that. But that you have complete and total control and can do whatever you want -- doesn't mean you are supposed to.

That's where the aspect of CONTROL comes in. Oh yeah, you can beat someone bloody for every tiny infraction, and if you have inspired a sufficient level of submission, they *will* lay there and take it. For awhile. Most will rise up and rebel before too long. B/c people do not LIKE to be in relationships that are all about how they are a failure. It's not good for their psyche or their ego. And yes, even s-types get to have egos, at least in my world.

I absolutely agree with Hibbie that anyone who needs a constant punishment dynamic to keep their s-type in line has not inspired sufficient submission so as to have earned a necessary level of obedience.

Ullrmann, you asked what I believe is an important question.

So when you do not take kindly to open defiance, what would you do if faced with it? Just call the relationship broken and dismiss the submissive? Or do you have a way with your vast experience to address it without punishments? Here's a cookie if you stop being naughty?

I can take you what *I* would do if faced with open defiance by my submissive (and what I think Himself would do). I would say, very calmly and politely: "It appears you no longer feel a need to obey me. I need my submissive to obey me. Please take some time to think and ponder your words and actions, and when you are capable of communicating with me, I will be here to talk about what it is that has you so vexed."

If they continued to rant, or whatever, I would direct them to journal until their emotions were under control.

If they continued past that, I would remove myself from their presence, explaining what I was doing and when I would return.

Outright defiance is not TO ME a reason to kick someone to the curb (unless it happens often). It's a reason to TALK.

Ullrmann, it's clear from my quick scan of this thread, you've gotten your tidy whities in a twist over your perceived criticism of your dynamic. Your condescension and hostility towards the regular posters here tells me your need to justify your punishment dynamic is based in insecurity.

If you were secure in the dynamic, why would you care what a bunch of strangers on the internet had to say?

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 7/30/2012 1:07:03 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:06:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I think the problem is because you two define "punishment" differently than others such as LadyHib, LaT and LadyPact just did above. You don't even want it to succeed as a deterrent, but as far as enjoyment, it meets your sexual needs quite well. On the other thread, you said:

Except that it IS very much intended as a deterrent. Just not the deterrent that punishment in general will never be needed again.
When I got beaten for missing the turn and not paying attention to the map, it was very much intended to deter me from doing that again, by instilling the reminded of the punishment in me for the next time when I'm sitting there with the map.

However, what it isn't meant to do is instill the idea in me that if I'm human -and I fuck up little things like forgetting somethings, or accidentally burning eggs, or get to caught up talking to remember what I'm doing, or have a bad day and am less than absolutely subservient in my speech- that there is something seriously wrong in our dynamic.

I am human, and I am going to do all those things, and I'm probably going to do at least one of those things, or something like it, pretty much on a weekly basis. Not because I'm trying to be a brat, or seeking out punishment, but because I happen to not be perfect -it's my most serious flaw.

Punishments aren't meant to be a deterrent to me being human, they're meant to be a deterrent to individual mistakes, AND to reenforce the fact that all my actions have consequences that he can impose. Considering that my obedience to him is based on the fact that he imposes consequences to my actions it seems only logical that he would take any and every opportunity possible to impose consequences to my actions, whether or not it was something small and unintentional or not.

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I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to kalikshama)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:12:22 PM

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Master is a sadist. Most of the time he beats me because he can and it gets him hard knowing how much I hate the pain but still revel his power over me. He doesn't say or use the excuse that it's for punishment because it's just not true.

But there are times he beats me out of punishment and the mindset is different and so is the way he beats me. It's just different and just fucking hurts and there is no reveling in his power then. It just makes me want for it all to stop so I can have him forgive me and we can put it all aside. But that's not to say he doesn't get off on it. He does because he loves my screams but at the same time he hates to punish me because it's a sign that there could be something wrong with our dynamic and because he doesn't want to have to do this to someone he loves. The mindset is different, the reason is different. He uses pain for punishment in the punishment mindset because he knows I hate pain and at that point I'm not taking it because I love him. I'm taking it because I did something wrong and I deserve to be hurt in that way. It will be a lasting reminder of what I did and not to repeat it. It's contradictory, yes but that's how it works for us.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:17:30 PM

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As you said, nothing wrong with funishment, but if there is a constant need to punish, something is wrong and it needs to be addressed.

But to "punish" somebody in a way that turns them on is about as clever as giving my dogs a treat every time they push the envelope. Now in case I am in a D/s dynamic and the "submissive" tricks me into regularly giving him/her a "treat", I cease to be the dominant in that relationship, I become a service top. Nothing wrong with that, as I said, I love playing with masos who love to hate the funishment, but I'm the top then and not the dominant and we're not fooling ourselves by dressing it up.

And yes, if I have to tell my subs or my doggies off all the time because they think they can ignore commands, I'd have to take a good look at what I am doing wrong, because what I am doing is obviously not working and since I'm the one who should be in control, I'm the one to blame.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:18:05 PM

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Thank you for the clarification, lw. I have read a *lot* about your dynamic with Kana, and although I admit it would not be for me, it seems to work for you two.

Your statement about the difference in your mindset when you are being punished really resonated with me. In my mind, punishment is supposed to be different from your garden variety "I'm beating you b/c I want to."

I would be very interested in knowing Kana's perspective.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:29:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

You see, if a sadist ENJOYS punishing his property, well then he *is* going to find infractions so that he can have the pleasure of punishment.

Why would that be necessary if he can just be sadistical for no reason and enjoy that instead. Inventing infractions that don't exist seems counterproductive if you can just enjoy sadism without having to invent a reason for why you're doing what you're doing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

No one is perfect. I can easily see a dynamic in which the s-type is given so many rules to obey, that 100% obedience is impossible.

And you know what, after 8 years and 2 longterm TPE relationship, and after a year of totally vanilla marriage to recover from my last TPE relationship THAT line represents exactly what I told him I wanted our dynamic to be.

You see, when I told him I was finally ready again to work on figuring out a BDSM dynamic that works for both of us, he asked me to define what it is EXACTLY that drives me to want a BDSM dynamic to begin with, and that both my previous TPE relationships failed to provide.
After a lot of soul-searching, the answer that I finally came up with is that I don't like obeying, and I don't like submitting for their own sake, but I LOVE the fear associated with knowing that somebody can attach consequences to my failures, big and small.
I love having a devoted, reverent fear of fucking up, that pushes me to strive to be better than I can possible be. I love to be pushed and challenged to levels I don't feel I can attain, and surprising myself in how far I still get at attaining them.

That's what I asked of him. And that's what he decided he wants as well, after a lot of soul-searching on his part, and hours of conversation we've had about this topic.

I know what we have is very controversial and certainly not typical. I'm not even sure that it is our dynamic for good, and that we won't evolve into something else over time. But it is what our dynamic, and if I would have to voice one single complaint so far, it is that he so far has made it far too easy for me to meet expectations.

quote:

TO ME, this represents a failure in the relationship, since the s-type HAS to fail, and get punished. AND, of course, if the D-type enjoys it, well he or she is going to be quite naturally drawn to creating ever more situations were punishment ensues. B/c they like it and they can.

I totally understand that, but considering that I don't really think I am an s-type according to the common BDSM ways of viewing s-types, it doesn't apply to us at all.

quote:

(In the case where the s-type enjoys the punishment, sorry, that's not punishment to me. That's funishment. That someone needs to dress is up as punishment in order to get their domly rocks off is AOKAY with me, I love roleplay myself. But, shesh, call a spade a spade.)

I totally agree with this. If punishment is enjoyable, it isn't punishment at all. If something is not punishment at all, because it is enjoyable, it also doesn't necessarily get me horny.
If he beats me for the sake of beating me, just because he wants to because he happens to be a sadist, it doesn't make me wet. I don't enjoy pain, I don't enjoy beatings, and I don't enjoy punishments.

However, the mental headspace that being punished creates makes me horny.

quote:

That's where the aspect of CONTROL comes in. Oh yeah, you can beat someone bloody for every tiny infraction, and if you have inspired a sufficient level of submission, they *will* lay there and take it. For awhile. Most will rise up and rebel before too long. B/c people do not LIKE to be in relationships that are all about how they are a failure. It's not good for their psyche or their ego. And yes, even s-types get to have egos, at least in my world.

Again, I'm not an s-type, but I do like to have our dynamic centered around my failures to meet expectations. I don't lay there because he's inspired a sufficient level of submission, because he hasn't inspired any level of submission-in-a-BDSM-context at all. I also wouldn't rise up and rebel against our current dynamic if I happen to grow out of it at some point in the future. Instead, I'd sit him down and would talk to him about it, and we'd figure something else out.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:32:17 PM

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Fast reply to Ishtarr.

I think you are the first person I have ever run across who said they get dripping wet from writing lines. That's a first for Me and I promise you that doesn't happen every day.

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:34:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

But to "punish" somebody in a way that turns them on is about as clever as giving my dogs a treat every time they push the envelope.

I'm unpunishable then in your eyes. Because if you would do anything at all, including ignoring me or withdrawing play, with the stipulation that the reason for your actions are punishment, it will make me horny.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Now in case I am in a D/s dynamic and the "submissive" tricks me into regularly giving him/her a "treat", I cease to be the dominant in that relationship, I become a service top.

I absolutely agree with that. If a person provokes punishment intentionally because they enjoy the results, the punishment is hardly that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

And yes, if I have to tell my subs or my doggies off all the time because they think they can ignore commands, I'd have to take a good look at what I am doing wrong, because what I am doing is obviously not working and since I'm the one who should be in control, I'm the one to blame.

Which works great if you're working with a slave, submissive or animal who are (supposed to be) subjugated to your will.
It doesn't work, however, when both parties are equals in the relationship, and neither one is subjugated to the will of the other.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:41:05 PM

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I admit I do not know you or your husband; I have no intimate acquaintance with your dynamic.

However, based on what you have told me, you have a sadist/masochist dynamic in which you need to be forced to obey, and he likes to punish you when you don't.

Good oh. May you two stay together and enjoy many more beatings.

But, you do not have a dom/s-type relationship in my mind. He is your fetish delivery device. Now if he's good with that, again, coolio.

ETA: I should amend statements above -- You two are both each other's fetish delivery devices. And it appears you are both cool with it.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 7/30/2012 1:54:19 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:45:23 PM

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Ishtarr......you are a complex woman, that is for certain. And trust me when I say, that is not written with any negative connotation. It is glaringly apparent that your relationship is working for you. It is also apparent that while your husband does have a domineering personality, he isn't your master. Instead, he is your partner, working with you to structure a relationship that works well for the two of you. I am not even sure there is a core BDSM dynamic within your relationship as most of us envision it.

Most of us are looking at the topic from a much less complex point of view. M/s, D/s, and/or.........a more specific concept of BDSM.

In all honesty, I sincerely doubt we can or SHOULD utilize the dynamic you and your husband have, to try and define anything for a novice in all of this.........other than "It doesn't have to fit ANY sort of mould IF the people involved are satisfied."

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:46:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Fast reply to Ishtarr.

I think you are the first person I have ever run across who said they get dripping wet from writing lines. That's a first for Me and I promise you that doesn't happen every day.

LOL and that's what I'm apparently having such a hard time explaining: I do NOT get wet from writing lines. Writing lines sucks. If I got wet from it, I'd be doing it all the freaking time.

But if I am told by somebody else whom I am aiming to please that I have to write lines because I failed to please them in some way, I will get wet, sometimes even to the point of dry-humping the chair while writing lines.

What will get me even more wet is, after the punishment is over, and I'm doing something else during the day, thinking back to, or being reminded of somehow, that IF I happen to fuck up what I'm currently doing, something will happen that I intently dislike.
However, this will not at all inspire me to fuck up whatever I'm doing intentionally, because the punishment will at that point be MORE something that I don't like, than it will be something I do like because it will get me horny.

Especially considering that:
- the very idea of being punished by itself will get me horny already
- the punishment is something I dislike
- I KNOW that eventually I will accidentally fuck up enough to get punished again
- there are other things, besides being punished that will make me horny as well

There is no need for me to deliberately seek out punishment as a method to get off. Hell, it probably wouldn't even work anymore, because it wouldn't register as punishment because it was something I intentionally sought out. Just like him beating me just because he enjoys beating me doesn't get me horny the same way punishment does, because it doesn't register as punishment.

Hell, compare it to humiliation play if that makes more sense.
How many people love, and get horny out of their mind by being made to do things they consider to be humiliating, EXACTLY because the humiliating act they are "made" to do is something they don't like?
If the humiliating act was something they loved to do, and was easy and enjoyable to them, it wouldn't register as humiliation play at all. The essence for it being humiliation play is exactly that same love/hate relationship that I have with punishment dynamics.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 7/30/2012 2:00:14 PM >

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I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:46:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

But to "punish" somebody in a way that turns them on is about as clever as giving my dogs a treat every time they push the envelope.

I'm unpunishable then in your eyes. Because if you would do anything at all, including ignoring me or withdrawing play, with the stipulation that the reason for your actions are punishment, it will make me horny.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Which works great if you're working with a slave, submissive or animal who are (supposed to be) subjugated to your will.
It doesn't work, however, when both parties are equals in the relationship, and neither one is subjugated to the will of the other.

I don't know if you are unpunishable, you and I simply would not be suited because I would feel I'm your service bitch, there for your enjoyment and you allow me to feel a little bit dominant - mehhh.

OK, as for the 2nd part - a D/s relationship is NOT an equal relationship, you can be equals in a relationship but then it will definitely not be D/s, then you don't have a dominant, you have a service top and if you are happy with that, it's great. Because how can anybody be your dominant if you are equal?

_____________________________

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Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:46:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkchaos666

what would you say the difference between dominant and sadist is.

Hi, Darkchaos. It's nice of you to be here.

Reviewing your profile it appears you are more dom than sadistic. You want to direct. If so, you probably would not enjoy a masochist as much as you would enjoy a submissive. Turning that around, I'm sure you could visualize a relationship without the control dynamic featuring instead a 'funishment' dynamic, in which case a submissive partner would not be the ideal and a masochist would be.

To put that a little more glibly; A dominant would tend to use punishment to obtain control while a sadist would tend to use punishment to have fun.

AND (public service announcement) it probably need not be said that absent consent what we are talking about is crime. (We now return you to your regularly scheduled pointless argument)

Best wishes, DC.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:48:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

But, you do not have a dom/s-type relationship in my mind.

I never claimed we did. In fact, I've very clearly said, several times now, that that's exactly what we do not have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

He is your fetish delivery device. Now if he's good with that, again, coolio.

And I am his.
And considering that we're each other's mutual fetish delivery devices, he's perfectly coolio with that.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:54:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
And considering that we're each other's mutual fetish delivery devices, he's perfectly coolio with that.

Bingo... a relationship in which both people know and understand each other's wants and needs, and in which those wants and needs are fulfilled.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:56:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It is also apparent that while your husband does have a domineering personality, he isn't your master. Instead, he is your partner, working with you to structure a relationship that works well for the two of you. I am not even sure there is a core BDSM dynamic within your relationship as most of us envision it.

Exactly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

OK, as for the 2nd part - a D/s relationship is NOT an equal relationship, you can be equals in a relationship but then it will definitely not be D/s, then you don't have a dominant, you have a service top and if you are happy with that, it's great. Because how can anybody be your dominant if you are equal?

Of course it's impossible to have a D/s dynamic that is an equal relationship.
Which is why we do not have a D/s dynamic at all, and why I'm not an s-type at all.

I can see him have a D/s dynamic with a third person added to our relationship, if at some point in the future a unicorn ever hops our way.
I can see my relationship with my husband drastically changing and adapting over time, maybe even to something that could end up resembling a D/s dynamic on a superficial glance.

But what I cannot see us ever ending up with is an actual D/s or M/s dynamic. Precisely because I'm his partner/mate first, and he my partner/mate first, which makes us equals in this relationship first. And that puts us on a completely backwards starting point than D/s or M/s dynamics have.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 7/30/2012 1:58:44 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:57:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KateMid
But isn’t one way a Dom gets control by inflicting pain in the form of punishments? If he is unable to punish for transgressions then surely he has no real control.

I generally would disagree with this, but that depends on what you mean by punishment. Causing pain as a form of control, in this case as corrective behavioral modification is all fine and good, but if your sub knows that you enjoy punishing them (or if they in turn enjoy receiving pain), your sub will not change that behavior, as what you have done is rewarded your sub's unwanted behavior with an enjoyable activity.

Alternatively, applying pain as Funishment, in which both parties understand that this situation is not meant to be corrective in nature, does not affect control, so is irrelevant here.

(in reply to KateMid)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 1:59:11 PM

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quote:

How many people love, and get horny out of their mind by being made to do things they consider to be humiliating, EXACTLY because the humiliating act they are "made" to do is something they don't like?

I don't know about for anyone else but the reason I like humiliation play isn't because I don't like what he is doing but because he has that power over me for me to want to give that to him, to do anything he wants me to do because I love him and I love the power he has over me.

If I was with someone else say in a casual relationship, it wouldn't turn me on at all because they wouldn't have that power over me and it's not something I like. I would just tell the person I'm not doing it and walk away.

So again, I can see the differences between you and others here who have more of a d/s or M/s dynamic where there is an unequal balance in power.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 2:05:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Fast reply to Ishtarr.

I think you are the first person I have ever run across who said they get dripping wet from writing lines. That's a first for Me and I promise you that doesn't happen every day.

Okie dokie... disclosure.

I dated a girl who was very VERY into the schoolroom dynamic. And by "very" I mean... a dozen authentic school uniforms, an antique school desk, the whole enchilada. So much so that, to be honest, I got a leetle bored in the end. But anyways.

She was REALLY into the punishment. But, it couldn't be funishment... it had to be a consequence of something. So I taught her french - with textbooks and everythang.

She would hate making mistakes, she'd hate it when I told her she had to be caned. And she'd be dripping wet by the time she bent over the table.

Lines had the same effect. Enough lines that she'd need the loo before they were finished, and know she couldn't get up, had an even more intense effect.

So she was doing this mental trick (which I'm neither judging nor ascribing to anyone else on this thread) where she created a situation of real jeopardy (real enough to her), where she knew there would be consequences if she failed a test, and then endured those consequences. That was her thang.

My "thang" was the fact that all along... she knew she could just say "Stop" (or "tangerine" as it happens).. I could see the conflict in her eyes... I could see her thinking "Fuck, I'm a grown woman with a wall full of degrees... why am I still sitting here writing lines when I can just get up and go to the bathroom"

But she didn't.

Now like a lot of the posters here... I think that "punishment" dynamics are full of potential pitfalls. On one hand I agree that if you're constantly having to invoke consequences for bad behaviour in a relationship then something is either wrong with you, or the relationship.

But in my case... I fucking loved a) her conflict b) her submission to it c) her reaction to it.

that is until... it seemed that schoolroom was the only thing we ever did.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to LadyPact)

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