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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:05:02 PM

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You are completely misrepresenting the punishment dynamic relationship. Having a punishment dynamic does not equate to constant punishment, so that does not address the why is it ok to raise welts for fun but not punishment?

Control over a submissive - or animal - or whatever other trained entity you want to bring up requires corrections to be applied along the way. I agree that beating a dog is the last thing you want to do to get a well behaved dog. However submissives are more complex than dogs. Many won't respond well to beating either and it would be an idiotic dominant to use pain to correct bad behavior in those submissives. However, I am in a relationship where exactly what you say is right would fail miserably and cause a disintegration of our relationship - at least the BDSM part of it. So what works for us is deemed wrong in your expert opinion.

So when you do not take kindly to open defiance, what would you do if faced with it? Just call the relationship broken and dismiss the submissive? Or do you have a way with your vast experience to address it without punishments? Here's a cookie if you stop being naughty?

So if you agree that it is just fine for me to raise welts on Ishtar for fun, is it just a matter of negative reinforcement always being wrong even though it is exactly what is needed with the complex dynamics between our two kinky minds? Because it seems perfectly acceptable to people on the boards to use other, non-pain related negative reinforcement techniques to correct bad behavior. Or, do you consider the negative reinforcement of withdrawal of affection to be another example of improper correction? If you are seeing both as the same bad thing, then I will acknowledge the consistency in your position and question others where I am seeing an inconsistency.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/30/2012 12:20:31 PM >

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:05:09 PM

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Thanks for saving me all the typing LadyHibiscus. lol
Couldn't agree more on the entire post.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:09:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

This was started in this thread because of one of your posts which I thought was taking the position I wanted to question and LC clearly posted the same position I wanted to question. Now the cognitive dissidence many are demonstrating has reached a comical point with this group - which is really funny, but still fails to produce any answers to the question.

I'm going to direct you to kalikshama's post above. She did a much better job than I would have and is exactly right. She's quite good at finding the right reference.

quote:

Stating how your way works for you and not the one true way is just repeating the clarification you made a while ago and I will repeat for those who have been sorely hard of reading. At no point have I criticized anyone for following their own personal approach. I only am challenging those who seek to disparage my approach for not fitting their one true way and then criticizing them for being too cowardly to address the question of why.

Do you remember earlier when I said you may have Me confused with somebody else? Let Me expand on that a little from personal philosophy.

I'm more than happy to discuss the particulars of dynamics with just about anyone. I might even engage in debate about the 'why' of the way things work within a specific household. At the end of the day, however people make this thing work is good with Me. I'm in no more position to tell people how to run their house than other people can tell Me how to run Mine. Even if I ask for advice, I'm still going to be the person making the call in the end. If I expect people to show Me that respect, I have to do them the courtesy of showing them the same. One of the funny quirks that I have. I never understand why Dominants don't respect the authority of others when they want their own respected.

quote:

I appreciate how you have not responded with any childish hostility in the thread and I will show respect to others who can do the same. Obviously you have a rare skill at being able to engage in a calm conversation which might result in more than clique posturing.

Hopefully more often than not, but I'm also not perfect.

By the way, thanks to kalikshama (again) I read that other thread on punishment. Dude, I'd have saved that cattle prod for the fun kind of thing, rather than a punishment. That's just My style. I don't like to punish. It's no where near as fun as play is to Me. I'd have wanted to have a grand old time with it.

See, that's not a criticism, as I see it. I just look at that as talking about a difference between you and I. On My end, I just happen to *Love* enjoying My sadism, so I prefer not to mix punishment up in that.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:10:05 PM

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quote:

Again, in response to a newbie asking if it's possible for anybody to find punishment (or certain types of punishment) hot the answer is: "NO, that's impossible. Nobody ever finds punishment hot!

Why would you take answers given to a clueless newbie whose entire worldview on BDSM was formed by reading 50 Shades of Gray and apply it to your own dynamic?

With her, we needed to start with the basics - funishment vs punishment and fiction doesn't accurately reflect reality. You two are married and in a dynamic that works for you.

I have a degree in Computer Science. If someone asks for technical advice and posters tell them to ensure the computer is plugged in, I don't feel insulted and get defensive about my own computer skills. You're trying to extrapolate 101 advice to a 301 dynamic.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:16:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Why would you take answers given to a clueless newbie whose entire worldview on BDSM was formed by reading 50 Shades of Gray and apply it to your own dynamic?

Because the newbie wasn't just told that 50 shades is unrealistic. She was told that anybody who gets wet from punishment is a juvenile, inexperiences, porn-driven wanker who is doing it wrong, and that their very existence is insulting to serious BDSMers.
Considering that I'm somebody who gets wet from punishment, it was rather hard not to take the fact that my very existence is apparently an insult to various people on this board as a personal insult.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:16:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Thanks for saving me all the typing LadyHibiscus. lol
Couldn't agree more on the entire post.

Thanks, LW!

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:18:24 PM

humblysubmissive

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One of the worse things you can do to any sub is to ignore them one thing submissives love is getting attention from a Dom.

(in reply to Ullrmann)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:19:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

You are completely misrepresenting the punishment dynamic relationship. Having a punishment dynamic does not equate to constant punishment, so that does not address the why is it ok to raise welts for fun but not punishment?

Did someone say that? Really? Hell, "punish" in whatever way works for you. As LP says, I enjoy my sadism, and would rather keep it separate.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:20:41 PM

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OOPS (NM)

< Message edited by thursdays -- 7/30/2012 12:21:18 PM >

(in reply to Ullrmann)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:22:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkchaos666

what would you say the difference between dominant and sadist is.

I didn't realize there was any debate. The dictionary is quite clear (and correct).
Some people are neither dominant nor sadistic. Some are dominant but not sadistic. Some are sadistic but not dominant. Some are both dominant and sadistic.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:23:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

When people ask generic questions they get generic answers.

Except that people weren't asking generic questions at all at all.

Instead what we had was a newbie asking a very specific question regarding the possibility of things:

I have no experiences with this at all. I'm imagining things this way. I want to ask you all if this is possible for anybody to do/find engage in.

And the resolute answer was: NO! That's impossible. Nobody does that. Any if anybody does they are inexperienced wrong, juvenile, wankers and fantasy players who based their dynamic on porn.

Now if the starting question would have been: "I'm wondering if anybody of you has build your dynamic X way."
And the answer would have been: "No, I don't do that, because it doesn't work for me for these reasons. But there is no true way in BDSM, and it is therefore possible for other people to do things differently."

That would have been a completely different vibe, and not something at all I would have taken the least bit offense at.
But apparently this board is just completely anti-twue-way-ism... up until the point a newbie asks a controversial question. And suddenly the twue-way applies to everybody, lest they be labeled an idiot.

Okay, so I am to understand that because a group of strangers not actually IN your relationship, feel the way you manage your relationship, is wrong, juvenile, wankers, and fantasy players basing their dynamic on porn.....you are actually offended?

I actually thought you were a stronger, more self aware woman.

There are quite a few beliefs I've seen expressed on here that I disagree with. I may even find their beliefs offensive. But it's not something I take personally just because I do not agree. I certainly would not throw the childish tantrum that has been seen on this thread, the way your husband has. Just because I disagree.

As for the topic.......from MY perspective. If I punish a slave/dog/employee/whatever, that I am responsible for.....for doing things they should not be doing....and they continue doing those things.......then it is ME that is the failure. If a slave of mine, is consistently not behaving in the way I have instructed her to behave, then she is not MY SLAVE. She is not submitting to me. If she thinks that misbehaving aka manipulating me, is the way to get herself wet, then she will ultimately find herself out on the curb, likely whining about how badly she has been treated.

Submit and obey. I refuse to asign different meanings to those words just because someone playing slave, wants to get hot and wet. To me, they are simply a bottom and certainly not submitting or serving......except to their own desires.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/30/2012 12:25:34 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:23:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

Stating how your way works for you and not the one true way is just repeating the clarification you made a while ago and I will repeat for those who have been sorely hard of reading. At no point have I criticized anyone for following their own personal approach. I only am challenging those who seek to disparage my approach for not fitting their one true way and then criticizing them for being too cowardly to address the question of why.

Do you remember earlier when I said you may have Me confused with somebody else? Let Me expand on that a little from personal philosophy.

I'm more than happy to discuss the particulars of dynamics with just about anyone. I might even engage in debate about the 'why' of the way things work within a specific household. At the end of the day, however people make this thing work is good with Me. I'm in no more position to tell people how to run their house than other people can tell Me how to run Mine. Even if I ask for advice, I'm still going to be the person making the call in the end. If I expect people to show Me that respect, I have to do them the courtesy of showing them the same. One of the funny quirks that I have. I never understand why Dominants don't respect the authority of others when they want their own respected.

I think there was a misunderstanding between us on that statement of mine. I do remember and was not intending to state otherwise. I also was not including you in those I said I was challenging. My apologies if you felt lumped into that group.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/30/2012 12:25:45 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:24:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Well, you are good at condescension toward women, at least. Enjoy your time here.

crazyml is a woman? I responded to him the same way as the women.

Indeed you do, you appear to be showing the same level of condescension to people of either gender.

Go you!

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:26:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

why does LP get the benefit of using context from posts made on other threads but I am prohibited from using the same context?

I happened to understood her context. I don't understand yours. It's not reasonable to presume that everybody will know the context, which is why I put a lot of effort into providing it. Probably other people feel the same as LadyPact:

For what it's worth, if you are finding criticisms across various threads, it may be easier to address such points on the threads where they appear with the posters who made the comments. Frankly, I didn't know what the situation was about until kalikshama was good enough to give some background.

I already answered that too. I had my reasons - the position was stated in this thread. So I did exactly what was suggested.

Silly me for not realizing that although you brought it up again the matter was in fact closed for you

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:29:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

Congratulations on completely missing my point. Is this willful ignorance of what I stated or are you legitimately unable to comprehend my questions?

Every single one of your comments 100% missed the point of my statements so it isn't even worth going through one by one.

Good! We're done here then?

I'm going to have one pop at helping you to understand why your experience on this thread hasn't been awesome, then I'm going to give up.

Here's a robust but constructive bit of advice...

If you take offence and pick fights, accusing people of poor comprehension skills when they try to explain to you, then you're not going to have a fulfilling experience here. You've come across as a bit of an ass, and my sincere advice is to button it and grow up a little.

Now.. here's the snarky version...

<pats lap> C'mere poppet!

Now, daddy is going to help you with a couple of things, so you be a good little dom and shut the fuck up for a second.

I'm sure you're not a pathetic little wank stain. Just as I'm sure that in a few weeks, after you've matured and worn the daddy pants for a while, you'll re-read your comments on this thread and understand why some people might have obtained the, very very wrong, impression that you are indeed pathetic, and a wank stain.

Can you see the difference?

If you can well, I am tickled pink to have been able to help you.

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(in reply to Ullrmann)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:33:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

There are quite a few beliefs I've seen expressed on here that I disagree with. I may even find their beliefs offensive. But it's not something I take personally just because I do not agree. I certainly would not throw the childish tantrum that has been seen on this thread, the way your husband has. Just because I disagree.

I find this to be true.

quote:

As for the topic.......from MY perspective. If I punish a slave/dog/employee/whatever, that I am responsible for.....for doing things they should not be doing....and they continue doing those things.......then it is ME that is the failure. If a slave of mine, is consistently not behaving in the way I have instructed her to behave, then she is not MY SLAVE. She is not submitting to me. If she thinks that misbehaving aka manipulating me, is the way to get herself wet, then she will ultimately find herself out on the curb, likely whining about how badly she has been treated.

Submit and obey. I refuse to asign different meanings to those words just because someone playing slave, wants to get hot and wet. To me, they are simply a bottom and certainly not submitting or serving......except to their own desires.

I agree with this as well.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:37:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Because the newbie wasn't just told that 50 shades is unrealistic. She was told that anybody who gets wet from punishment is a juvenile, inexperiences, porn-driven wanker who is doing it wrong, and that their very existence is insulting to serious BDSMers.
Considering that I'm somebody who gets wet from punishment, it was rather hard not to take the fact that my very existence is apparently an insult to various people on this board as a personal insult.

The poster was told REPEATEDLY that 50 Shades is fiction. Yet, every response that comes from that particular poster alludes to her thinking that is EXACTLY what all BDSM looks like. The characters of the book were posted about as if they were real people for crying out loud.

Your marriage works for you. Great! You also don't happen to have one track thinking. Now, what's going to happen to the so-called newbie when she runs across people on the internet who want to meet up and their opinion of the "punishment" isn't the erotic light spanking that the newbie thinks she is signing up for?

After reading the thread in Ask A Submissive, I would have to agree that by My standards, if I had to punish once a week (your description in the other thread) I would think something is wrong. Frankly, that would impose on My enjoyment of play.

The word punishment in the dictionary does not have any link to positives. It being positive to the two of you after your two years together isn't the same as somebody's education regarding BDSM. That's why vanilla people love the fantasy of it and kinky folks, in general seem to think it's a piece of trash.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:43:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Why would you take answers given to a clueless newbie whose entire worldview on BDSM was formed by reading 50 Shades of Gray and apply it to your own dynamic?

Because the newbie wasn't just told that 50 shades is unrealistic. She was told that anybody who gets wet from punishment is a juvenile, inexperiences, porn-driven wanker who is doing it wrong, and that their very existence is insulting to serious BDSMers.
Considering that I'm somebody who gets wet from punishment, it was rather hard not to take the fact that my very existence is apparently an insult to various people on this board as a personal insult.

I think the problem is because you two define "punishment" differently than others such as LadyHib, LaT and LadyPact just did above. You don't even want it to succeed as a deterrent, but as far as enjoyment, it meets your sexual needs quite well. On the other thread, you said:

quote:

As far as beatings go, I don't tend to even begin to take a beating seriously unless it instills fear in me. Fear of him continuing, fear of displeasing, and most importantly fear of being beaten again.
I don't get to a point where I feel fear unless/until I'm beaten to a point where I'm begging to stop and being ignored. It doesn't necessarily take that much pain to get me there, but it IS essential to get me there if the objective is a beating I take seriously.

However, considering that fear is just about my biggest fetish/turn on... it's all good to me.

quote:

The main reason for that is that what I'm looking for in this type of beating is fear. Fear is erotically stimulating to me, so what I want is that fear response to be linked to certain actions (displeasing him), so that it triggers an erotic response throughout the day.
To achieve that goal, the consequences must be avoidable to me (by not fucking up) but still high risk enough that it will happen with a certain frequency (at least about one big one a week, several small ones throughout the week) but not so high risk that it happens more often than either he or I can keep up with.

I'm not going so far as to use the word "funishment" - how LadyHib conceptualizes your dynamic makes me be able to get my brain around it:

Thanks for that clarification, Ishtarr. I was racking my brain trying to come up with the transgression that would merit beating someone into hysteria, and I couldn't arrive at one. That you're doing it for fear play makes a lot more sense.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 7/30/2012 12:46:40 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:49:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: humblysubmissive

One of the worse things you can do to any sub is to ignore them one thing submissives love is getting attention from a Dom.

They do???? hhmm...well I'm not a sub, I'm a slave so maybe that's the difference. There are actually times when the last thing I want from him is attention and my attention is always on him.

As for ignoring me, yeah, sometimes it's deserved for something I've done or said. So no it's not always the worse thing he can do. The worse thing he can do is leave me permanently.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 12:52:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Okay, so I am to understand that because a group of strangers not actually IN your relationship, feel the way you manage your relationship, is wrong, juvenile, wankers, and fantasy players basing their dynamic on porn.....you are actually offended?

The definition of "offended" being "resentful or annoyed as a result of a perceived insult", yes you can bet your ass that I get annoyed when I perceive that people are insulting me.
About as offended as the average gay person would be if a nut-job religious freak told them that the very fact that gay people exist is an insult to their lifestyle.
As in, it doesn't impact me or my life, I'm certainly not laying awake at night over it, or changing my life to better accommodate those that disagree with my existence, but I'm going to be annoyed at their statements.

quote:

I actually thought you were a stronger, more self aware woman.

Thanks, even if this thread may have changed your opinion on that, I'll still take that as a compliment coming from you.

quote:

As for the topic.......from MY perspective. If I punish a slave/dog/employee/whatever, that I am responsible for.....for doing things they should not be doing....and they continue doing those things.......then it is ME that is the failure. If a slave of mine, is consistently not behaving in the way I have instructed her to behave, then she is not MY SLAVE. She is not submitting to me. If she thinks that misbehaving aka manipulating me, is the way to get herself wet, then she will ultimately find herself out on the curb, likely whining about how badly she has been treated.

I totally agree with that. If a punishment isn't a deterrent, it's not a punishment at all. If a punishment provokes repeat behavior, in order to be punished again, it's not a punishment at all. If a punishment is deliberately provoked as a goal to get wet, it's not a punishment at all.
I'm not sure if at this point you believe that's going on with me, but if it is, you'd be wrong.
Yes, I get absolutely fucking horny and dripping wet from being punished. In fact, the more a punishment is a deterrent and will have me seek to NOT have it repeated, the more I'll get wet from it. I don't want this to happen, because in the moment, all I want is for the punishment to end. It doesn't matter if I'm being ignored, beaten, made to write lines, or whatever, the result will be the same: I'll get horny. It does matter how much I dislike the punishment, because the more I dislike it, the hornier I'll get.

My body responds to the mental aspect of being punished, not the physical act, and in that way basically "betrays" me in the same way that happens when rape-victems get wet or orgasm during a rape. I don't think anybody would claim that a rape-victem orgasming from rape actually enjoyed the rape, or will seek it out again deliberately; so I'm not sure why people seem to assume that I will with punishment just because I basically have the same reaction to it.

quote:

Submit and obey. I refuse to asign different meanings to those words just because someone playing slave, wants to get hot and wet. To me, they are simply a bottom and certainly not submitting or serving......except to their own desires.

I totally agree with that as well. A slave's only choice is to submit and obey.
It's also why I've for a long time now stayed absolutely clear from the label slave. I'm not a slave, nor do I claim to be one.
I don't even claim to be a submissive, because I don't believe I fit the common BDSM way of seeing submissives; because I do not submit or obey unless I see it as a way to get what I want out of a dynamic. My obedience is strictly self-centered and egoistically based.
I'm not even sure if the bottom label fits me, because I don't set any limits at all to what my husband can demand from me. I just also don't give him my word or guarantee that he'll actually get it by virtue of demanding it.

So I have no clue what I am in terms of BDSM labels. Except that I'm most definitely none of the above. And I don't really fucking about it either.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 7/30/2012 12:55:49 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LaTigresse)

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