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Israel - 9/28/2012 6:27:27 AM

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Desideriscuri makes an interesting opinion statement in "so who's a terrorist now" thread -

I still maintain that Israel needs to be protected when attacked.

Begs a question. If Israel is that Israel of Biblical prophecy, of what need has Israel of earthly big brother security? Of course there is the argument of what instrument(s) God might use.

One could point out that as a people the Jews have existed and even thrived in many places throughout the world prior to Israel's creation. The Christian could point to prophecy and God's promise to Israel. But that begs just how God keeps his promise.

What I find so interesting is Israel's existence at all. It's place as a focal point, even as to Jerusalem.

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 8:24:00 AM

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A brave but necessary post, Yachtie.
It's complicated.
Will have to give it some thought.

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 8:30:36 AM

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the Lord has and uses his instruments on earth.

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 9:13:31 AM

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would be fine if they were fine instruments instead if ignorant tools

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 11:19:27 AM

kdsub

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I believe Israel has made many mistakes. If they wanted to they could have made peace with their neighbors long ago.

I also believe the support for Israel in the US and its own inability to negotiate a peace has its roots in the holocaust.

Jews have been persecuted for centuries all over the world. They have on the whole been peaceful self-contained societies inside other societies which has often made them targets for others problems.

The final insult was the attempted final solution…the near extermination as a race. This galvanized Jews all over the world to make and return to a homeland where they could live their Jewishness without fear of discrimination and death. Thus their saying “ Never Again”.

Remember it was US troops that discovered and liberated many death camps. The horror was shown over and over in the US and as a fair minded people we felt sorry for and were enraged by the treatment of Jews.

So ever since…for good or bad we have supported Israel.

The above said it is time for Israel to take a chance…put their trust in their God and make an effort for real peace. Take down the wall…remove the settlements…open the borders…engage in commerce with the Palestinians…if needed allow UN troops to help buffer societies until memories fade. This tit for tat war is turning both sides into monsters and it needs to stop.

Butch

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(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:00:03 PM

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quote:

One could point out that as a people the Jews have existed and even thrived in many places throughout the world prior to Israel's creation.

One could point that out but one is confronted by several obstacles, the worst of which of course was the Holocaust.

But even prior to that horrendous event there was a long history of anti-semitism and pograms against the Jews in Russia and Europe. Just as an example, Pope Paul IV had the Jews of Rome confined to a ghetto in 1555 where they lived under awful conditions and were subjected to Catholic preaching.

It is true (I think) that often Jews who assimilated were able to thrive. But many who assimilated came to bad end in Isabella's Spain for example and 20th C Germany.

So, the Zionists began encouraging migration to Israel late in the 19th C as an anti-assimilast movement and in response to increasing anti-semitism in Europe.

The whole history of the founding of modern Israel is informed by the emotions of persecution and guilt on all sides (accept the Palestinians) making it a very difficult topic to even approach.

But that is only the Jewish side. The Palestinians had been recognized as a political body before the British Mandate that came about from the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI. The Mandate was supposed to be a transition that restored religious, civil, and political rights to the Palestinians.

To make a long story short the Israelis created their state by declaration and war. The Arabs have tried several times without success to dislodge them. So, Israel is a fait accompli.

Sorry I went on but I am trying to sort this and I am sure there are others who can help me.

So, what is the question posed in this thread? Is it the legitamacy of Israel? Or is it does America have a responsibility to assure Israel's survival? Or both?

The challenge is to discuss this without rancour.

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:12:33 PM

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Paul VI wasn't even born in 1555. I'm not nit-picking but, let's blame the right Pope?

As to the question:

One could certainly make the claim that Jews have been successful and happy just about everywhere they've gone. That would be an accurate statement.

One could also say that they've been persecuted and thrown out of every country on the planet except this one and Israel.

Where the US fouled up is by helping Israel wage war in that area instead of saying: "Yes, Israel, you need a homeland of your own. Here, take Idaho" The US, giving land to Israel would have been commendable but the reason the arab world hates us is because of how we helped to conquer Israel. That was our error.

Should Israel be protected? Yes, as much as we protected the Catholics that were being murdered in Indonesia (oooops! We did nothing) and as much as we protected the Christians anywhere in the arab world that are now targets of hate and violence but we won't do that because it isn't politically correct.

If we're going to be "the world's policemen", we need to treat everyone equally. I would be just as happy if we disengaged as much as possible from the rest of the world and worried about our own shit.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:15:24 PM

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quote:

Paul VI wasn't even born in 1555. I'm not nit-picking but, let's blame the right Pope?

mea culpa . . . was Paul IV

I hope 6 will forgive me

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:16:24 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Israelis created their state by declaration and war

The whole history of the area is perhaps the most complicated of any area on Earth...There is no clear cut ownership either in a historical or practical view.

The last manifestation of an Israeli homeland actually began with proper property transactions. Zionists bought land from the Arabs and moved families on it. Then of course there was the UN mandate of late 47 early 48 that made it official.

So the point I am trying to make is Israel did not begin as a declaration or war…that came after Arab aggression.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/28/2012 12:17:19 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:21:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

One could point out that as a people the Jews have existed and even thrived in many places throughout the world prior to Israel's creation.

One could point that out but one is confronted by several obstacles, the worst of which of course was the Holocaust.

Quite so. The Jews have been confronted by obstacles since time immemorial. They're still here. More Jews exist outside of Israel than within it. So it's illogical to state that Jews exist today solely due to the State of Israel. The holocaust, regardless of what it was, was just another blip of greater proportion than others.

For that reason I disregard the holocaust within the OP.

The whole history of the founding of modern Israel is informed by the emotions of persecution and guilt on all sides (accept the Palestinians) making it a very difficult topic to even approach.

Most assuredly. Look at Germany and it's 'sensitivity' laws regarding the holocaust.

So, what is the question posed in this thread? Is it the legitamacy of Israel? Or is it does America have a responsibility to assure Israel's survival? Or both?

Israel's legitimacy was set by recognition by sufficient world governments, especially the UN. Israel was, imo, a bit of a designer nation due to what you stated above; guilt. But prophecy states that Israel shall be again and God shall watch over it. So, does Israel require the US as God's protector? If Israel is that Israel of prophecy then it needs and is promised God's protection, not that of the US. Unless, and of course, God's protection is His use of the US being but illustrative at this moment.

How would we know?

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(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:24:22 PM

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Butch....... I agree with much of your post but it wasnt just US troops who discovered and liberated the death camps. The Russians and British liberated several camps, in fact Belsen was liberated by the British who found 60,000 inmates there.

It is also quite insulting if you are insinuating the British have any less desire to protect Israel. More so since our troops have indeed been dying in large numbers alongside your own in the war on terror.

As for Israel and Palestine, both the lands and the peoples stem from the Canaanites and other tribes in the area going back to the bronze age. A genetic survey found that 70% of Y chromosomes found in Jewish people and 80% of those found in Palestiniands go back to the same genepool.

Jerusalem was founded prior to King David, who eventually made it his Capital, probably by Canaanites. I suggest its historical significance dates from the fact that Jews, Muslims and Christians all date there faiths back to that area. So its significance is religious rather than anything else. IE, it holds no strategic importance to trade or defence.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:31:14 PM

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No one I know is predicting the first coming.

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:47:35 PM

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quote:

So the point I am trying to make is Israel did not begin as a declaration or war…that came after Arab aggression.

Yes, you're right. I should have been more precise.

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:52:24 PM

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Pull up a chair and have some refreshments....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnD-72fdolY

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 12:55:55 PM

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quote:

Israel's legitimacy was set by recognition by sufficient world governments, especially the UN. Israel was, imo, a bit of a designer nation due to what you stated above; guilt. But prophecy states that Israel shall be again and God shall watch over it. So, does Israel require the US as God's protector? If Israel is that Israel of prophecy then it needs and is promised God's protection, not that of the US. Unless, and of course, God's protection is His use of the US being but illustrative at this moment.
How would we know?

I would prefer not to consider the possibility that the foreign policy of the United States is motivated by attempting to discern God's Will. Are we going back to the Crusades or ahead to the End Times? Are you suggesting the latter?

Is there a vital national interest for the United States in the survival of Israel?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 9/28/2012 1:08:02 PM >

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 1:01:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

Pull up a chair and have some refreshments....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnD-72fdolY

three dudes sitting around eating chips and dip while calculating the date of the End Time

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 1:28:15 PM

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What's wrong with that? Least they aren't fouling up the airwaves inventing make-believe debates.

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 1:28:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Israel's legitimacy was set by recognition by sufficient world governments, especially the UN. Israel was, imo, a bit of a designer nation due to what you stated above; guilt. But prophecy states that Israel shall be again and God shall watch over it. So, does Israel require the US as God's protector? If Israel is that Israel of prophecy then it needs and is promised God's protection, not that of the US. Unless, and of course, God's protection is His use of the US being but illustrative at this moment.
How would we know?

I would prefer not to consider the possibility that the foreign policy of the United States is motivated by attempting to discern God's Will. Are we going back to the Crusades or ahead to the End Times? Are you suggesting the latter?

I'm suggesting a few things.

One is an historical perspective as to Israel via entangling alliances. That's what got Britain into WWII and really kicked it off, its alliance with Poland. The US is seen as with Israel; so goes Israel so goes the US. There are alliances everywhere. Why does Israel seemingly bow to US pressure?

Another is whether Israel needs the US as big brother. From a Christian pov, if Israel is that Israel of prophecy then it cannot be defeated as it's protector is God himself. Under that rubric Israel should be able to stand US or not.

There's also the perspective as Israel being no different than any other nation so why them and not the Palestinians. Fair question. If the US were to side equally with the Palestinians and work to force a settlement agreeable to all parties would that help relieve pressure on the US as per Israel and even grant Israel added security?

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“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 1:42:47 PM

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Some things to keep in mind about this.

The end of the British Mandate was intended to create 2 states existing side by side with Jerusalem in neutral hands as a UN city. Neither side got all the good land or all the fresh water but each got a state. On the very day when both states came into being the neighboring arab staes invaded and attempted to destroy Israel. The Jews defended themselves, as they had every right to do. When it ws all over the borders of Israel were what they are now and Egypt held Gaza and TransJordan held the West Bank and Jerusalem. So where was the Palestinian state? Gobbled up by their Arab neighbors not conquered by Israel.

Jordan closed Jerusalem to all Jews and engaged in a practice of destroying Jewish synagogues and cemetaries in the city. For19 years praying at the Western Wall, the second holiest place in Judaism, meant looking at the wall through binoculars from a hill just inside Israel. Even though it must have been patently obvious that they could defeat Jordan militarily any time they wanted they stayed inside their borders. It was only when the Arabs once again attacked Israel, at the goading of the newly formed PLO, that Israel conquered all the land of the old Mandate.

To this day, despite ruling the city for 45+ years, Jews cannot approach their holiest site. the Foundation stone under the Dome of the Rock, to pray or even while in possesion of anything with Hebrew script on it. Can anyone imagine the Muslim response if someone conquered Mecca and imposed those restrictions on Mulims? But no one is forcing the Israelis to respect the Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa Mosque, they do it of their own choice.

The Palestinains do have legitimate complaints but their messgae will never prevail as long as they embrace terror as a tool.

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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 2:05:32 PM

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Man. Did the British manage to fuck over EVERYONE with their fucked-up 'partition' ideas. Afghanistan/Pakistan. Israel/Palestine. Northern Ireland/Everyone Else....

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