RE: A or B, not yes or no. (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 6:44:44 AM)

Im not saying fraud doesnt happen. I did look into California law last night, which says that either they can prosecute by the state or take steps by the agency. Maybe you need to look into getting that changed.




TheHeretic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 6:47:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

So far though, no plan b.       


Sure there is, Ron. You brought up block grants yourself.

Gotta run. Have a lovely day, all.




mnottertail -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 6:50:44 AM)

That block grant plan has been in place since 1996 and its result is what you have been bitching about thru anecdote.

So, the B plan has been working its magic for lo, these many years.   Nothing A or B about it.    It is all B.  It is 'conservative thought' in action.





tweakabelle -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 8:52:31 PM)

Of course there is no plan B. The aim is welfare destruction, not welfare efficiency

The whole argument is constructed on the basis of anecdote/myth generalised into universal truth. It's origins lie in an ideology that insists that citizens of a given country do not have a mutual obligation to each other, that 'personal responsibility' is all that counts, and that any one who fails to meet the standards of 'personal responsibility' as arbitrarily defined by the looney Right deserves nothing from either the State or their fellow-citizens.

It's a witch hunt founded on myth that has no more substance or reality than a leprachaun, yet it is pursued with malice and spite. But, for those who need it, it is a great rationalisation of selfishness, greed, insecurity and other ugly emotions and needs.




cloudboy -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 9:09:40 PM)

quote:

Another clever republican ploy. Anecdote with the people at the bottom of the rung that are gaming the system. As if, those people constitute a majority of the poor in this country. As if, those are the only social ills that need addressing. As if, you demonize someone trying to make it in life you somehow end up making yourself look better.

Going to get around to a real policy suggestion or are you just going to bs your way through this


He loves anecdotes. He's been posting them for years.




TheHeretic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 9:31:39 PM)

FR

Actually gang, I've been posting policy change proposals about as long as I've been harping on the subject, and saying over and over that it's right and proper for a nation such as ours to have these programs. Some of those proposals, people might really like if they tried reading what I say, instead of searching for something to bitch about when they reply to my avatar.

It's that fatal Alinsky flaw, that requires all the angels to be on one side, and all the devils on the other, on every aspect of every conversation.





tazzygirl -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 9:35:37 PM)

quote:

It's that fatal Alinsky flaw, that requires all the angels to be on one side, and all the devils on the other, on every aspect of every conversation.


Then why are you falling into that flaw?




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 9:41:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

Actually gang, I've been posting policy change proposals about as long as I've been harping on the subject, and saying over and over that it's right and proper for a nation such as ours to have these programs. Some of those proposals, people might really like if they tried reading what I say, instead of searching for something to bitch about when they reply to my avatar.

It's that fatal Alinsky flaw, that requires all the angels to be on one side, and all the devils on the other, on every aspect of every conversation.



Of late,the only one I have seen applying this so called Alinsky method...has been you




TheHeretic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 9:45:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Then why are you falling into that flaw?



I play the game I'm in, not the one happening in that Loius Armstrong song.

Welcome to the internet.




Lucylastic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 10:32:13 PM)

thats your excuse and you are sticking to it....using "alinskys rules" is just a cover and has been played thru out history way before alinksy was a sparkle of a spermie....why cant you just admit it... you wanna hang it on the left, and its bollocks.
ODS gotcha bad Rich




TheHeretic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 10:37:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

ODS gotcha bad Rich



Sorry, Lucy, but I felt the same way back when I thought he was going to be Hillary's veep.

Have you ever read Rules for Radicals?




Lucylastic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/13/2012 10:52:48 PM)

Only when you told me about it four and a half years ago years ago Rich....
Thats how I know its bollocks:) and predates Alinsky specific DNA by a couple of generations at least.




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 3:59:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

thats your excuse and you are sticking to it....using "alinskys rules" is just a cover and has been played thru out history way before alinksy was a sparkle of a spermie....why cant you just admit it... you wanna hang it on the left, and its bollocks.
ODS gotcha bad Rich

I thought it was the election,that things would get better after it
Elections have consequences,not all of them benign.
Pushes some folks further over the edge,I feel sorry for him....but in the end,fuck it,onward christian soldiers and all of that.
He just gets put into a different column than he had previously occupied ,he'll come out when he's ready...or not.
I ,more and more, am learning not to give a shit.




mnottertail -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 6:32:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

Actually gang, I've been posting policy change proposals about as long as I've been harping on the subject, and saying over and over that it's right and proper for a nation such as ours to have these programs. Some of those proposals, people might really like if they tried reading what I say, instead of searching for something to bitch about when they reply to my avatar.

It's that fatal Alinsky flaw, that requires all the angels to be on one side, and all the devils on the other, on every aspect of every conversation.




Alinsky is not the darling of left or right.   So, block grants which are republican design are now something to bitch about, and per usual they are for it before they are against it.

 




tazzygirl -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 6:58:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Then why are you falling into that flaw?



I play the game I'm in, not the one happening in that Loius Armstrong song.

Welcome to the internet.


Its all a game to you, Rich.




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 8:04:56 AM)

If thats true Tazzy,why does he insist on playing for the losing side ?




tazzygirl -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 8:05:46 AM)

Wrong kind of game, Mike.




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 9:03:25 AM)

A game with no sides....interesting [:D]
So a game for games sake ,how silly [:)]




LookieNoNookie -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 7:27:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

On another thread, Tazzy brought up a quote from good old Saul Alinsky that I thought was worth a look, and some comment.

A People's Organization is dedicated to an eternal war. It is a war against poverty, misery, delinquency, disease, injustice, hopelessness, despair, and unhappiness. They are basically the same issues for which nations have gone to war in almost every generation. . . . War is not an intellectual debate, and in the war against social evils there are no rules of fair play

The snip is from his 1946 book, Reveille for Radicals, and it's interesting because the libs of today would love to pretend that they hold exclusive interest in resolving these eternal ills. They would have us believe that the solutions they are offer are the only solutions, and that to reject their methods is to maliciously wish the problems continue.

I'm of the opinion that one big reason the Democrats squeaked through this election was by successfully defining and demonizing the opposition with just that slur.

That box which Dems want to force Repubs into, must be dealt with. It's time to call "bullshit," on the ploy.

Democrats love poverty. They love misery, and delinquency, and hopelessness, despair and unhappiness. It's how they recruit. Happy optimists with a few bucks in their pocket, vote Republican.

We now have a nice long record, a multi-generational record, of what happens when Democrats/liberals try their hand, at dealing with poverty. It has turned the traditional family into a rarity in our inner cities. It has given us taxpayer funded "mentors" for the poor, who cannot show their clients how to cover a hole in a window with a bit of cardboard, and who give them little plaques for not deserting their children, or getting themselves sent to prison. It has given us program rules that hold people right where they are in poverty, and deny aid to fixed income seniors who went into retirement with a little bit set aside. It has given us the thought process of the Obama phone lady, and a sub-culture that thinks a job is something you are given, instead of something you go out and get. It has given us 47 million Americans on food stamps, and radio advertising to go sign up. This is the Democrats idea of fighting poverty, and it has given us more poor people than ever before, whose leading health problem is obesity.

What is the conservative approach to poverty? You can look back to the quote above, and see what, "A People's Organization" is NOT committed to fighting for. Individual liberty. Self-determination. Economic freedom. These are the tools we address poverty with. Unlike the thoughts of our President, who denigrates the values of hard work and being smart, a conservative will believe that these are the core essentials to leaving poverty behind.

A conservative believes the way to assist people in leaving that miserable condition is with opportunity, and the freedom to pursue it. A conservative believes that if the government is going to deliberately create jobs to prime the pump of opportunity, then we should get something real and tangible for our money. Even FDR, the man who gave us the New Deal, understood this. The art is still there, in the old post offices, the stone guardrails still line many a scenic road. The Reagan military build-up ended the Soviet Union, after it got GM and Ford back to production.

The position is not, and has never been if conservatives care about people in poverty, it's what do we think is best to do about it.

What do Republicans need to do in the aftermath of this election? They need to stop allowing the Democrats to be the ones who define what conservatives values are.



Heretic....the GOP defined what conservatives value....we just did an unbelievably shitty job of it.

The Democrats won fair and square (which is a lot to say after Gore won the Presidency in 2000, but the courts gave it to Bush because of the Electoral college).

The electoral college sucks.

The proof of that was in 2000 when Gore rightly won the Presidency and in 2012 when Obama won, largely because he had a vastly better team (once again, it wasn't stolen from Romney....Romney fucked up. He WAS the better candidate...of the two....but not in fact).

Interestingly, contrary to what every Dem will tell you..."Romney was a flip flopper"...the truth is, like Obama on the illegal alien thing and marriage, he changed his mind.

Smart people with new information do that. Hopefully.

Things change...what was true 10 years ago...may not (and is likely not to) be true today.

I could list all Romney's failures as to what the "populace" wanted but I have to give it to the guy (and his comments re: President Obama when he walked away, I feel, express how sincerely he meant what his entire campaign was about...to him).

When he walked away, he said that he and Ann were praying for the President and that he'd be successful (I'm paraphrasing....don't have the copy in front of me) and that he'd (Romney) be available if needed.

Today in news reports (supposedly) he's now blaming the 47%. I don't buy it any more than that Bush Jr. voted for Obama accidentally on November 7th....ridiculous news reports are often discounted a few days later. It's not Romney's style and I'm confident Snopes will discount in the days ahead.

Let's just all hope and pray (if you're of that inclination) that Obama really means what he says and will earnestly give it his all to solve our problems, and not be swayed by unions among others. Doubtful...but, let's now assume he meant what he said....he is the Prez of all of us.

On Monday the 6th, I prayed he'd disappear from the world stage, but he's now the Prez, he's got the football and even as I didn't vote for him (and for the first time since 2000, I actually did vote), I support him 100%.

Bitching doesn't solve anything.

It's a waste of time.




TheHeretic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/14/2012 7:57:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
It's a waste of time.



So is trying to have any sort of sensible conversation on an internet forum, Lookie, but it's often an amusing waste of time.

Yeah. He's the Pres. and stays that way for another four. I'm not leaving the country. Nor am I caving, and deciding that more government really is the automatic best solution to every problem that comes along. Those who dump their principles because they put the letter by his name above all else, are still going to be Obamabots.





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