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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/12/2012 11:42:59 PM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: slaveluci
Wow, reading some of these responses is chilling. I have to wonder why someone would have a child, let alone several, if they really hated the idea that much. It's really sad because it HAD to have shown through to the child/ren that it was such a misery to raise them.


I imagine it's more of a love-hate thing for many people. Much like, well, being whipped or something. Like, you're really glad you did it... afterwards.

ETA: Or is the fact that someone doesn't totally enjoy it at the time mean that it's not masochism?

Pam

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 12/12/2012 11:47:11 PM >


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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/12/2012 11:54:53 PM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: subbus
My adult offspring are a royal pain in the ass, and I would stand in front of a train or a pack of wolves to protect them. I LOVE those horrid legal-age brats. I am truly a masochist.


This made me laugh. Good for you.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/12/2012 11:55:55 PM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I hear other parents talk about how joyful it is to raise a child and the first thing I always think is they are either trying to lie to themselves or they are outta their freakin mind!


Me too.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:03:36 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: FelineFae
Masochism is for one's own benefit, altruism for the better of others.


This is what I don't understand, and where those "submission is/isn't a gift" arguments always confuse me. Ultimately, everything is done for one's own benefit. No one gives a gift without expecting something in return, even if that "something" is just the satisfaction of having given it. ETA: I'm not sure there's much of a difference between "masochism" and "altruism".

Pam

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 12/13/2012 12:04:37 AM >


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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:11:05 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: theshytype
Raising a child is by no means easy, but most things in life aren't. The joys in raising a child are not in the tantrums, worrying, or any other difficulty. It's the joy in seeing this little person, so much like yourself and yet so different, grow up. I do truly enjoy raising them and any negative aspect is just a difficulty, not a pain.


That was lovely, thank you.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:12:33 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
The pleasure to pain ratio in parenting my kids has me saying that, in my next life I am sticking with 4 legged furry babies.


Hell yes. I'm not a masochist either.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:14:42 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: IgorsHand

I'm sad that my daughter has grown up and is making it in the world herself...I wish I could press a replay button.


A difference in temperament, perhaps. I can't even imagine.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:18:45 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

i love my son.

i never wanted to be a mum....not ever...however, as he grew i loved him...

i gave up everything i wanted to be to have a child i never wanted...but i wouldn't change it. i wish i could undo my mistakes, but i can't. i have appologised to him for them. i'm told that the young man he is now is my doing, but i'm not so sure. i just know that he's rather wonderful, i love him immencely, i'm so proud of him i could burst, and i wouldn't be without him.


Again, just lovely. Thanks.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:20:35 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Delayed gratification, not masochism.


Out of curiosity, what's the difference?

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:28:36 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: wayward0sub

Love love love raising my son...I am one of those mother bear figures who will, and am currently doing so, stand in front of the wolves for my son (to borrow someone else's turn of phrase)...yes it is hard as hell and painful sometimes, but the joy and just outright fun I get from from it are well worth it.

I never wanted to be a mother either...it just happened suddenly and I found that I was born for it. I was always that ambitious woman that was on a fast track to anything but motherhood...But then he was born and I forgot what life before him was like.

Masochistic? I don't know. I don't enjoy the pain that goes with it. Altruistic? Nope. I ain't doing this for anyone but me and him. But is the pain (that I don't enjoy) worth it? Absolutely.


Thanks. I really like the responses on this thread.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:29:43 AM   
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Isn't 'masochism' the eroticism of pain? Not quite applicable to raising children. Which is a lot of different things, but rarely erotic?
No kids, but I rescue parrots. Permanent special needs 3 year olds. (DON'T!) They have changed my life. I love each one, though not for awhile after a bite. The pain is in seeing all they need that I can't ever do for them. And when I make a mistake that might affect them forever. JUST like raising children. We are all human, but with aspirations. We want to be perfect for them, and never can be?
I'm learning to recognize the moments I'd never want to give up. Watching my biggest 'fly' on my hand as we bike, seeing wings work and feeling him pull us faster, from 2 feet away. When a small wild thing of impossible beauty cuddles against you in need of comfort and reassurance and the simple act of social grooming no wild bird ever has to do without for more than minutes. When a beak that can open coconuts and destroy cabinetry explores your fingernails or ears gentile as an eyelash. The small things that balance the screaming for attention that lives of separation and prison have denied. No idea how people raise triplets or quads! Parrots are as difficult but aren't constantly getting smarter, creating new challenges almost daily. And people don't bring you before court for putting them in cages they can't open while at work!
Adulthood is when your concern and ambition is as much for someone else as it was for yourself as a child. I saw the people around me and decided boys race each other. Men raise boys and girls. Seems how the world is designed? I know my parrots really want only one thing, a mate, nest and a clutch of babies to care for. And God help whatever threatens their young. I guess this thread shows how our culture and individual complication has made that simplicity of purpose that so many living things on the planet know is lost to us?

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 12:32:53 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
Isn't 'masochism' the eroticism of pain?


Depends on how you define it. If you define masochism as sexual pleasure from pain, then no, child rearing doesn't qualify.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 1:03:35 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
So, I've had just a teeny tiny glimpse of what parents go through, and it helps relieve me of the sadness of not having had kids myself. But it's still hard to see mothers complain about being mothers. I guess there's still that little ache in my heart...


Sorry to touch a sensitive spot. I have to respect (and be bewildered by) people who feel this way. Deep down, I'm just plain selfish.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 1:05:38 AM   
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ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

Kids are a pain, and most parents take pleasure in raising them.

I would only have kids if I had the money to afford a nanny (a good one).. I have never babysat.. when i was a kid my mother tried to get me into babysitting but no way! I really dont have that temperment, but at least I know that about myself!.. The nanny wouldnt be the kind that would set the kids in front of the tv, she (or he) would have to be more like a governess, teaching the kids stuff.. filling their sponge-like minds with knowledge..

For someone that really does a great job as a parent, and enjoys doing all that.. I dont think its either masochism or altruism.. its like being a painter or sculptor because you love doing that, even if you dont get paid much for it.. Why did great painters do all that painting their entire lives when they usually died broke or poor? It wasnt for the same reason most people work, since most people hate their jobs or many aspects of it.. the only reason they do their jobs is for the money they get at the end of the week.. If ya wanna talk about being a masochist, that description could be applied to people that work at jobs they hate & bitch about all the time.. Great parents do that cuz they love watching their kids grow up & bloom, helping them, guiding them and molding them into the adults they eventually become.. much like a sculptor molds clay.. jmo..

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 1:20:54 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: tj444
For someone that really does a great job as a parent, and enjoys doing all that.. I dont think its either masochism or altruism.. its like being a painter or sculptor because you love doing that, even if you dont get paid much for it..


I fucking love this thread.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 1:33:53 AM   
epiphiny43


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I have observed two basic styles of child rearing. I call one, "Little League' parent, or Bonsai style. Parents have an image of what they want the child to be and cut and prune away everything else. At best, they get a perfect, but Small version of their image. This is a Lot of work? And usually completely frustrated as the children naturally rebel trying to be exactly who They are.
The other style I call 'Wildflowers'. An angel drops some seeds in your hand and says, "Plant, nuture and protect these." "What are they?" "You won't know till they are grown." And so the colors and shapes reveal themself beyond all our imagination. Less work, more fun?

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 1:39:13 AM   
metamorfosis


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ORIGINAL: epiphiny43
I have observed two basic styles of child rearing. I call one, "Little League' parent, or Bonsai style...This is a Lot of work? And usually completely frustrated as the children naturally rebel trying to be exactly who They are.
The other style I call 'Wildflowers'...Less work, more fun?


Don't know, myself.

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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 6:10:39 AM   
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< Message edited by FelineFae -- 12/13/2012 6:11:24 AM >


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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 8:37:17 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

I have observed two basic styles of child rearing. I call one, "Little League' parent, or Bonsai style. Parents have an image of what they want the child to be and cut and prune away everything else. At best, they get a perfect, but Small version of their image. This is a Lot of work? And usually completely frustrated as the children naturally rebel trying to be exactly who They are.
The other style I call 'Wildflowers'. An angel drops some seeds in your hand and says, "Plant, nuture and protect these." "What are they?" "You won't know till they are grown." And so the colors and shapes reveal themself beyond all our imagination. Less work, more fun?


I would say I've always been the 'wildflowers' version. I wanted my kids to grow up to be happy, well adjusted, productive members of society. Able to be responsible for themselves and their own actions. Beyond that, I never pushed them to BE any sort of preconceived notion of what I wanted them to be. I've always been as supportive as the parameters I already listed above, allow me to be. I've never turned my back on my kids when they didn't stay within those parameters, just let them know I didn't approve, but kept loving and encouraging them to do better for themselves, then when they were parents, for their own kids.

NV, I am sorry if my words caused you hurt. My heart always hurts for people that want so badly what came so easily, and without desire, to me. It doesn't seem fair.

One thing I do want to say..........I don't for a minute regret having my kids. They are part of the life path that has made me who I am today. Being forced to be the responsible one, to care about how every single thing I do, every decision I make, affects them. That's good stuff I don't care how you slice it. There is a selflessness that is created in most people that become parents, not all, but many. I needed that I believe.

And I gotta say, all of the hell and hurt my kids have caused me are worth it when I get a phone call like I did this morning, from my daughter, to say "Gooooooood morningggggggg, I just wanted to tell you that I love you and am soooooo glad you are my mom!" Or moments like one this last summer when my grandson said to me "Grandma, I won't ever not want to hang out with you! I love you!" When I suggested if he ever wanted to do stuff with friends or whatever, instead of hanging out with me on the farm for a weekend, he should tell me. So his dad is a pain in the ass......c'est la vie, the two grandsons I get from the pain in the ass are two of the most important bits of my life.

I guess the reason for the tone I've taken a lot in this thread is that I do think that parents, maybe especially women, are often afraid to admit the less than wonderful aspects of parenthood. The moments we wish we'd 'swallowed'. It's almost taboo. Hell, I had that conversation with my daughter. She's got one going through the clingy stage and another going through the "No!" stage.

Being a parent isn't all sweetness and light. Sometimes, no matter how hard you try, how good your intentions, you still end up with a child, a human being, that isn't a very likable person. Admitting that isn't a crime and parents of those kids shouldn't be ostracized for it. They should immediately be considered 'bad parents'.


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RE: Is child rearing an act of masochism? - 12/13/2012 9:12:26 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Delayed gratification, not masochism.


Out of curiosity, what's the difference?

pam

A masochist does not in general take pleasure in any arbitary form of pain, only in pain received under the pretext of enforcing authority, and typically only that of a sexual nature http://www.fetbook.it/wiki/index.php?title=Masochism. Therefore parenthood is not masochistic. We may joke it is but its merely a joke.
As for altruism, well I personally believe that the act of altruism is very rare indeed and has nothing whatsoever to do with being a parent and raising children.


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