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dropping a bondaged person - 1/18/2013 5:26:35 AM

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A woman was recently dropped from a bondage suspension because the ropes used for the lifts, which btw had been doubled up broke.
The rigger, a well known and highly respected rope master, wrote a blog about this accident. Here are some of the comments written by his fan club.
I can be lighthearted about it. But fact remains we do dangerous stuff with beautiful people and accidents happen This was written by the 'Rope Master'

The only reason I haven’t dropped anyone (or been dropped) is because it’s just not my time yet.

I also know of another, similar case that did not end so amicably. The bottom, a professional bondage model, lost 4 teeth and had to have her jaw surgically rebuilt.

The “BOB test” is to have a couple of big guys stand on the rope and swing around like Tarzan. If the rig will support them, it will probably support a girl.

Whilst I agree that bondage itself is a risky sport, even for the grand masters, because of nerve injuries. Ropes breaking on a hoist are absolutely unacceptable. The man in question did whats called a 'rapid hoist' pulling her quickly up into the air and he did this on jute rope.
These people advocate safety and yet are using a sub standard material for the job because aesthetically it looks pleasing.

Whats your opinion on this?

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/18/2013 3:28:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Whilst I agree that bondage itself is a risky sport, even for the grand masters, because of nerve injuries. Ropes breaking on a hoist are absolutely unacceptable. The man in question did whats called a 'rapid hoist' pulling her quickly up into the air and he did this on jute rope.
These people advocate safety and yet are using a sub standard material for the job because aesthetically it looks pleasing.

Whats your opinion on this?

For whatever reason a large portion of the rope community has this fetish about using hemp or jute which don't have any where near the same strength or quality control as ropes that were actually made to hold human beings.

It's baffling to me how those people will argue endlessly over building the strongest possible anchor point only to turn around and hang people off as few strands of very narrow diameter hemp/jute as they could possibly get away with.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/18/2013 3:45:21 PM

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There is risk involved in suspension. Of course the risk should be mitigated as much as possible, however, the participants should understand the possibility of something going wrong, then decide if it's worth the "risk" for him/her. Just like the rest of it, I suppose. What's to think?

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/18/2013 8:05:51 PM

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Personally, I prefer cotton or nylon rope...they're far more comfortable for me (I'm not into that scratchy shit tyvm) and being afraid of heights I don't do suspension unless it's really friggin close to the ground. Extremely tight bondage isn't neccessary.

Fact of the matter is, we do things that are dangerous. Accidents are going to happen. With a little prevention, they don't have to. It doesn't matter what rope they used, if they had done a weight check before the scene and made sure there were enough weight distributing points, the above accident could have been prevented.

Lucifyre

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 2:48:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

For whatever reason a large portion of the rope community has this fetish about using hemp or jute which don't have any where near the same strength or quality control as ropes that were actually made to hold human beings.

We are both climbers but Steve is someone who works on ropes on a daily basis he is horrified that they are using hemp rope for load bearing rigging, when there are numerous modern alternatives that can provide the safety margins required whilst maintaining the aesthetic.

quote:

It's baffling to me how those people will argue endlessly over building the strongest possible anchor point only to turn around and hang people off as few strands of very narrow diameter hemp/jute as they could possibly get away with.

Like you I find this really bizarre. I read a thread about dropping your bina. If you drop it more than 4 times you should apparently retire it!!
Then there was someone else that spoke about using slings for anchors which is good except he recommended that people thread the rope directly through the sling and not an attached bina.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 2:58:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre

Personally, I prefer cotton or nylon rope...they're far more comfortable for me (I'm not into that scratchy shit tyvm) and being afraid of heights I don't do suspension unless it's really friggin close to the ground. Extremely tight bondage isn't neccessary.

Fact of the matter is, we do things that are dangerous. Accidents are going to happen. With a little prevention, they don't have to. It doesn't matter what rope they used, if they had done a weight check before the scene and made sure there were enough weight distributing points, the above accident could have been prevented.

Lucifyre

Actually that isn't correct. The likely reason the rope broke is because he did a rapid hoist and a rapid hoist needs dynamic rope and not static rope. In other words, to get her up in the air he jumped and swung out whilst quickly pulling down on the rope and the forces applied to hemp rope when this happens is huge. When a rope in this can't cope with the shock load it breaks at its weakest point.
The prevention is this instance would probably of been to use dynamic climbing rope for the hoist and static rope for the bondaged but until someone dies, these people will continue to put their bondaged in dangerous situations.

(in reply to Lucifyre)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 3:24:52 AM

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http://www.edenfantasys.com/sexis/sex/suspension-accident-it-finally-happened-0130121/ Another accident, this time by Midori

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 1:32:32 PM

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I'll have to read the link but I'm not exactly a member of the Midori fan club.

The situation from the OP seems to belong in the accident that didn't have to happen category. I'm certainly not the queen of rope suspension and that may be coloring My opinion somewhat but it sounds like in the quest for "art" rope durability wasn't at the forefront of the selection. Good point on how folks will test the anchor points or equipment and not be as thorough when it comes to their own gear.

At the same time, I do have to have some agreement with this statement:

quote:

The only reason I haven’t dropped anyone (or been dropped) is because it’s just not my time yet.

Since I don't have as much suspension experience as some, I see this the same way as I do fire play. I gave somebody a blister once but that's the extent of actually burning someone. However, I do accept the reality that I could do everything right hundreds of times and that doesn't guarantee that I will never have an accident. I'll never be able to assure somebody that an accident isn't possible. The "it just hasn't happened yet" mindset keeps Me more vigilant, rather than being cocky.

I do want to thank you for the thread. I'm actually encouraged to do more work in the area of ropes now.

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(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 3:46:56 PM

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Hi Lady P
I think your different slant on what she said is perhaps a healthier prospective.
I have to ask you this though... When you started to get into fire play, did you follow what other people were doing without doing your own research?
The problem with suspension bondage is that most of it is done empirically. The decision to copy what someone else has done, simply because its aesthetically pleasing, does not abstain you of responsibility for the safety of the person you are suspending.
If these people were to seriously go home and do some research, apply some scientific method and look for facts, then they would be taking responsibility for what they are doing rather than simply relying on the observations and rumor's of what other people have done.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 4:09:52 PM

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Hi Maria. I always enjoy our talks.

I don't think we can compare the two. Fire play being the much more simplistic. Fire play is more an extension of what one already knows. It's not nearly as complicated as anatomy or physics. A basic understanding of chemistry is 80% of fire play, at least.

If a person has a profession in the medical field, for example, a saline infusion isn't all that difficult. The person already has background knowledge. I wouldn't necessarily expect that person to do extensive additional research.

What happens a lot in the days of the internet is somebody will see something and think it looks simple enough, so they give it a go. I'd rather not. I still prefer to have a more experience rope top with Me for suspensions. I'm overly cautious in some areas.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 4:35:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre
Personally, I prefer cotton or nylon rope...they're far more comfortable for me (I'm not into that scratchy shit tyvm)
Lucifyre

I also like the shiny vibrant colors that one can get with synthetics and I do not find barn yard smell at all sexy.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/19/2013 4:47:24 PM >

(in reply to Lucifyre)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 5:00:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Actually that isn't correct. The likely reason the rope broke is because he did a rapid hoist and a rapid hoist needs dynamic rope and not static rope. In other words, to get her up in the air he jumped and swung out whilst quickly pulling down on the rope and the forces applied to hemp rope when this happens is huge. When a rope in this can't cope with the shock load it breaks at its weakest point.

As a big wall climber I can say that hauling with static ropes works just fine. Climbers will routinely setup a 2:1 or 3:1 pulley system with a static line and jump on it. The difference being that they're using ropes capable of holding thousands of pounds instead of a few hundred.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/19/2013 5:33:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
http://www.edenfantasys.com/sexis/sex/suspension-accident-it-finally-happened-0130121/ Another accident, this time by Midori

If I recall correctly that was a fundimentaly different type of accident. a knot Midori tied came undone, the safest ropes in the world won't help with that.

I attended a class by her not too long before that where she talked about how she wasn't very good with knots...

Though there is a broader lesson there as well, a significant portion of the community isn't really into tying knots and certainly isn't into tying safety knots....that's not ok.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/20/2013 1:59:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Actually that isn't correct. The likely reason the rope broke is because he did a rapid hoist and a rapid hoist needs dynamic rope and not static rope. In other words, to get her up in the air he jumped and swung out whilst quickly pulling down on the rope and the forces applied to hemp rope when this happens is huge. When a rope in this can't cope with the shock load it breaks at its weakest point.

As a big wall climber I can say that hauling with static ropes works just fine. Climbers will routinely setup a 2:1 or 3:1 pulley system with a static line and jump on it. The difference being that they're using ropes capable of holding thousands of pounds instead of a few hundred.

Quite, the issue here is the rope being used and weather its appropriate.
You are right about static rope within a pulley system being the right choice, however the shock loads when not put through a pulley system would be more easily absorbed with a dynamic rope.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/20/2013 2:06:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
http://www.edenfantasys.com/sexis/sex/suspension-accident-it-finally-happened-0130121/ Another accident, this time by Midori

If I recall correctly that was a fundimentaly different type of accident. a knot Midori tied came undone, the safest ropes in the world won't help with that.

I attended a class by her not too long before that where she talked about how she wasn't very good with knots...

Though there is a broader lesson there as well, a significant portion of the community isn't really into tying knots and certainly isn't into tying safety knots....that's not ok.

I'm not going to post all the links from eye witness accounts but they are easily obtainable.
It sounds like the audience were worried about the knots she was tying but chose not to intervene because this was, after all Midori.
Midori was also wearing a bunny hood with goggles and her site was limited.
The girl who fell had to have several stitches in her chin and her teeth re-aligned.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/20/2013 4:06:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Quite, the issue here is the rope being used and weather its appropriate.

Yeah I think that we along with climbers, rescue technicians, fire fighters and anybody else with non-kinky rope knowledge would agree that ropes commonly being used for suspension bondage are woefully inappropriate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
You are right about static rope within a pulley system being the right choice, however the shock loads when not put through a pulley system would be more easily absorbed with a dynamic rope.

OK I get what you're talking about, yeah people shouldn't be shock loading an entirely static system. Particularly one that will only hold a few hundred pounds.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/22/2013 8:19:09 PM

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The fire/rescue service we tend to go a little overboard with our safety factor but it is for good reason. Alot dealing with unknown factors that can occur during a rescue and environmental issues as well. With all of that into account our safety factor is 15:1 so if we are estimating our load to be 500 lbs then our rope, and all hardware would have to be at least 7500lbs. Normal is around 9000lbs for rescue rope and hardware. We tend to back things up to planning for failure. We use static rope since we don't want it to stretch when we are loading our systems. Climbers use dynamic so that is will stretch to absorb the shock. Rescue we have shock absorbers that can be bought and are placed into our systems for if they are subjected to a sudden shock.

On the kinky side I would agree most ropes used tend to be a tad bit under what they should be for suspension. Take this as a simple observation. Knowing that you are working with much lower rated ropes, you need to remember that the load has to be evenly distributed and spread out over many ropes for it to be safer. If you have a rope that holds 100lbs and double it over you now can hold 200lbs, but you lose strength when it takes a tight bend, like through a ring. That is due to fiber compression on the inside and elongation on the outside of the bend. So I would more than double to increase your safety factor alot more. From reading the Midori article it sounded like a poor choice in knots not an equipment failure. Again these are just my observations as I have not done a suspension just seen them done, I have only tended to do bondage work with rope and for that I don't worry about loads. If it doesn't hold the worst that happens is oh my you got out.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/23/2013 9:14:39 AM

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Thanks for your useful input John
Isn't it the case when you tie knots in rope that you weaken the rope at the point of the knot, in the same way as you have described putting a bend in the rope when it is hung through a loop or bina!

(in reply to johnfire)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/23/2013 3:44:09 PM

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You are correct on the knots weakening the rope just as other bends. There had been a listing somewhere of what percentage each knot weakened the rope. I just can't remember where it was. 2 inch is what had been taught as an optimum bend to not lose strength. That is why most of the rescue pulleys are 2 inch or larger. To me it is making sure you still maintain a good safety factor. Also people need to remember weight rating on ropes is usually static weight. So if you have someone swinging or thrashing around, they will generate a much higher force than if they were just sitting there.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/24/2013 3:28:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: johnfire

You are correct on the knots weakening the rope just as other bends. There had been a listing somewhere of what percentage each knot weakened the rope. I just can't remember where it was. 2 inch is what had been taught as an optimum bend to not lose strength. That is why most of the rescue pulleys are 2 inch or larger. To me it is making sure you still maintain a good safety factor. Also people need to remember weight rating on ropes is usually static weight. So if you have someone swinging or thrashing around, they will generate a much higher force than if they were just sitting there.

We should also keep in mind that commercial riggers, fire fighters, rescue teams and rock and ice climbers all use certified equipment which has been tested and deemed suitable for the job. Rope really is our life line!
Suspension often happens on a piece of hemp or jute rope that is no more than 5mm in diameter. A bit of cord with no guaranteed shock loads.
When my husband is working off static rope, he wears lanyards (shock absorbers) which like you say, dissipates energy in a fall.
I don't think bondage riggers are going to be convinced until someone gets very seriously hurt or dies. People are taking bigger and bigger risks. I recently saw a group of pictures of a bondage model being suspended from a balcony. She was a good 15 ft in the air with her head facing downwards. There were two, what looked like, 8mm hemp ropes through the anchor which was a bina in a bolt that was in an overhanging beam. It wasn't even two ropes, it was doubled over which meant if one failed it all failed.

(in reply to johnfire)

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