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is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 3:09:22 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

No, the Holocaust is not some Jewish tale told by 'Jewish scholars and historians'. It is accepted in all advanced countries by practically all academic historians. The Holocaust is part of the history of 20th century Europe, of World War 2 and of World History. In fact, you'll find that professional historians are utterly scathing about Holocaust denial.

However, even though some argue that the historically accepted view of events is in fact, corrupt, it may not necessarily mean the individual is racist, or even anti-semitic. Some may even argue that the debate is reduced to a conflict of races, or ethnic discrimination, for the purpose of detracting any further investigation into the facts at the root of the discussion; essentially making the topic socially taboo, and therefore difficult to discuss and research in open circles without being labeled a bigot. It is far easier to discredit someone when they are painted the fool, or uneducated, and ignorant to history and its source


The truth of the matter is that by denying the Holocaust, you are basically calling Jews liars, denying there history.

quote:

Holocaust denial is generally viewed as antisemitic.[9] The Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, for example, defines Holocaust denial as "a new form of anti-Semitism, but one that hinges on age-old motifs".[176] The Anti-Defamation League has stated that "Holocaust denial is a contemporary form of the classic anti-Semitic doctrine of the evil, manipulative and threatening world Jewish conspiracy"[177] and French historian Valérie Igounet has written that "Holocaust denial is a convenient polemical substitute for anti-semitism."[178] In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now the Fundamental Rights Agency) published a "working definition" of antisemitism which gave as an example of the way that antisemitism might manifest itself, "denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust)".[179]


quote:

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 17 countries: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[185] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivializing "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[186] Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide. The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[187]
Source


Collarme has decided that holocaust denial is not antisemitic, I think it is, what is your opinions? Should the TOS reflect the given world view on the subject?

quote:

What is Holocaust denial and distortion?

Holocaust denial is an attempt to negate the established facts of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry. Key denial assertions are: that the murder of approximately six million Jews during World War II never occurred; that the Nazis had no official policy or intention to exterminate the Jews; and that the poison gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp never existed.

A newer trend is the distortion of the facts of the Holocaust. Common distortions include, for example, assertions that: the figure of six million Jewish deaths is an exaggeration; the deaths in the concentration camps were the results of disease or starvation but not policy; and that the diary of Anne Frank is a forgery.

Distinct from denial and distortion is misuse of the Holocaust. Misuse occurs when aspects of the Holocaust are compared to events, situations, or people where there is no genocide or genocidal intent. Examples of Holocaust misuse include: claiming that Israeli-government actions are equivalent to those of the Nazis; equating the treatment of animals with the treatment of Jews and other victims during the Holocaust; labeling political opponents as Nazis; or misusing the terminology of the Holocaust to assert that particular actions are the same as actions undertaken by the Nazis.

Holocaust denial, distortion, and misuse all undermine the understanding of history. Denial and distortion of the Holocaust almost always reflect antisemitism.
US Holocaust Museum stand on the question


< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 1/24/2013 3:14:10 PM >


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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 3:32:50 PM   
DomKen


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Holocaust denial is the absolute worst sort of anti semitism as it attempts to erase the attempted eradication of the jewish people. By pretending to believe that millions of jews were not killed it sets up the possibility of more violence against jews under the "justification" that they are spreading terrible lies against the people who particpated in the Holocaust.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 3:57:41 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Holocaust denial is the absolute worst sort of anti semitism as it attempts to erase the attempted eradication of the jewish people. By pretending to believe that millions of jews were not killed it sets up the possibility of more violence against jews under the "justification" that they are spreading terrible lies against the people who particpated in the Holocaust.



Tell it VAA.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 3:58:22 PM   
LadyPact


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Man, you're really close but I don't think you can quite make the stretch to antisemitism. You're on the mark with the denying history part. You just can't make it all the way to it specifically being a statement that people of Jewish faith, and only Jewish faith, are liars. Denying the Holocaust would also include disputing people of all faiths that saw camps with their own eyes, including those liberating the camps. That would even go so far as evidence presented at trials for war crimes.

I'm afraid I can't agree with the reasoning from the legal standpoint, either. If CM were based in any of those seventeen countries where Holocaust denial is illegal, I'd probably agree, but it is not. The site does specify what jurisdiction it abides by local, state, and federal law. We can't expect laws from other countries to be adopted here when the actions are legal here.

It's always hardest to abide by the tenants of freedom of speech when we really hate what other people say. Trust Me. I grit My teeth every time I have to deal with people chanting "white power" or when WBC is saying "God hates gays." The only consolation sometimes is being able to tell others exactly what I think of certain opinions.


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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:00:47 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Holocaust denial is the absolute worst sort of anti semitism as it attempts to erase the attempted eradication of the jewish people. By pretending to believe that millions of jews were not killed it sets up the possibility of more violence against jews under the "justification" that they are spreading terrible lies against the people who particpated in the Holocaust.



I fully agree. The denial of so many deaths is abhorent, more so since it is factually based and fully documented. It is the weapon of both extremists and nut jobs.

I also think the owners and admin of this site are free to set any TOS as they see fit. It isnt as if they are forcing us to stay.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:28:00 PM   
littlewonder


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yes it's anti-semitic and that's why I have a certain poster here well known for it, on ignore, because CM allowed him to say such things with nothing done to him.


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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:31:05 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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I did not think anyone denied the holocaust. I do not see how anyone could with all the documentation. When I was a teenager my mom had a good friend who's mother still had the tattoo from the concentration camp she was in.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:32:42 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

yes it's anti-semitic and that's why I have a certain poster here well known for it, on ignore, because CM allowed him to say such things with nothing done to him.




You could say though, that if the TOS made that illgeal, it would break your Constitutional law on free speech.

In the UK and parts of Europe we have introduced hate laws, and been called communists for doing so. The majority of us are okay with that, the extremists, of all ilks, are not.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:40:04 PM   
Level


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FR

I don't think it's necessarily anti-semetic, but I believe most that deny it are, if that makes any sense.

Rather than ban such shit, I'd rather ignore those spouting it, but this isn't my website.

< Message edited by Level -- 1/24/2013 4:44:10 PM >


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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:41:43 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

You could say though, that if the TOS made that illgeal, it would break your Constitutional law on free speech.

In the UK and parts of Europe we have introduced hate laws, and been called communists for doing so. The majority of us are okay with that, the extremists, of all ilks, are not.

Polite, the guarantee of free speech is extended to us from the Federal and State governments and any of their subsidiaries. The owners of CM have no Constitutional duty regarding free speech.

Having said that, imo holocaust denial is delusional and/or motivated by some political/racist agenda.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:45:27 PM   
playfulotter


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I think denial of the holocaust is antisemitic and the realm of idiots...It is just a ploy of hate mongerers who seek to elevate themselves among their followers who are the ultimate "sheeples". they tend to be those who follow anyone who makes them feel as if they have some power in their life as their lives are in such a shambles anyway.

< Message edited by playfulotter -- 1/24/2013 4:46:07 PM >


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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 4:55:58 PM   
littlewonder


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my "step father", if that's what you wanted to call him <can you tell I hated the man?>, believed the the holocaust didn't exist", jews are the bane of the planet and are taking over the world and that a man to the moon never happened and oh so many other conspiracy theories that are just too nasty to even repeat here without being kicked off of here for the sheer mention of them.

So yeah, there are people who believe that.


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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 5:09:55 PM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I did not think anyone denied the holocaust. I do not see how anyone could with all the documentation. When I was a teenager my mom had a good friend who's mother still had the tattoo from the concentration camp she was in.


Yes, when I was a kid some concentration camp survivors came to our school to speak about the holocaust. I saw the tattoos up close...I also saw the torture scars (the nazis tattooed and branded the jews purposely because the jewish religion forbids the marking of one's flesh in such a way...so it was done to further demoralize the victims).

The fact that the nazis kept detailed records of arrests and concentration camp activites...as well as all their DOCUMENTARY FILMS I've seen of concentration camp prisoners, starved, dying...and the death-stiffened bodies being bulldozed into pits to be burned/buried (the nazis sure LOVED their movie cameras, they film-documented practically EVERYTHING!), it's completely ignorant to deny all that happened.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 5:10:42 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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Yikes. I would be blocking anyone who tried to sell me that load of bullshit too.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 5:14:27 PM   
Powergamz1


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Blatant Holocaust denial is not unheard of, I put an ADL link up in the other thread on this.

It's the 'I'm no anti-semite' BUUUTTT... version that is at issue here.

On CollarMe alone, we've been assured repeatedly that there was 'no violence toward Jews until 1947', and that 'The Jews caused *all* the ill will against them by founding the state of Israel'.

That is a purely anti-semtiic meme... 'no violence' if true would mean 'No Holocaust', 'They caused it after WWIIif true, would mean 'no Ikwhan death squads, no Muslim SS troops ,or Final Solution planning'.

What documented history shows us is that the anti-semitism of the 1890s in Europe, was the impetus behind 'The Protocols' and the death squads (later Hamas), and it migrated to the Middle East, merged with the Holocaust, and made the current Palestinian situation a virtual Gordian knot of hatred and propaganda.

As I've said before, there are several possible reasons for someone to insist that the troubles in the Middle East didn't begin until the founding of Israel... and those reasons range from anti-semitism, to simple ignorance of well documented history, to carrying water for anti-semitism, to covert anti-semitism.

Determining who is which is pretty hard to do on the internet, thus the popularity of the last.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I did not think anyone denied the holocaust. I do not see how anyone could with all the documentation. When I was a teenager my mom had a good friend who's mother still had the tattoo from the concentration camp she was in.



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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 5:19:37 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

The fact that the nazis kept detailed records of arrests and concentration camp activites...as well as all their DOCUMENTARY FILMS I've seen of concentration camp prisoners, starved, dying...and the death-stiffened bodies being bulldozed into pits to be burned/buried (the nazis sure LOVED their movie cameras, they film-documented practically EVERYTHING!), it's completely ignorant to deny all that happened.


My "step father" would always say the films and documents were faked by the Jews and the U.S. government and that we've always been in power with the Jews because well, they're one in the same, trying to take over the world....you know, The Illuminati.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 5:22:29 PM   
jlf1961


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I have only pulled links from non-Jewish sites for my argument, here is another one.

quote:

Stating that gas chambers were not used and that only 200,000-300,000 Jewish men women and children were intentionally exterminated by the Nazis and their collaborators, is in fact Holocaust denial. It is one of the key aspects of Holocaust denial. Few if any people claim that no Jews died, instead they make arguments like the ones of Bishop Williamson, that far fewer people died and that there were no gas chambers, implying that there was no systematic murder. Denying this not only attacks history, but minimizes the suffering of millions of innocent people. There is no excuse for these actions. Simply because Bishop Williamson chooses to believe the lies of so called historians does not excuse his actions, nor does it mean that he is not spreading falsehoods. In addition, the “historian” whom Williamson cites, is Fred Leuchter whose “findings” have been thoroughly debunked for 20 years, and who is only cited by Holocaust deniers. The report which Williamson cites was funded by Ernst Zündel, who was at the time on trial for, and later convicted of, Holocaust denial, and who has published Nazi and Neo-Nazi propaganda. As such, Williamson’s statement that he will change his opinion when his sources change theirs is absurd, insofar as his sources are known anti-Semites.
Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic


When I google the question, "Is holocaust denial anti-Semitic, google gives me About 2,040,000 results (0.36 seconds)

The fact that some people claim that the deaths of 6 million Jews is over exaggerated or never happened, is antisemitic to the core. When my father was stationed in Germany, one vacation we toured some of the concentration camps. I saw the crematoriums and the gas chambers.

Personally, I feel that collarme should place Holocaust Denial as firmly anti Semitic as most people feel that way.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 5:25:40 PM   
cordeliasub


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I think it is anti-semitic.....

Of course, I myself am antistupid.......

To me, saying that the Holocaust never happened would by like saying slavery never happened or that the two towers in NY are still there.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 5:33:44 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I think it is anti-semitic.....

Of course, I myself am antistupid.......

To me, saying that the Holocaust never happened would by like saying slavery never happened or that the two towers in NY are still there.



Boy do I have news for you. There are some states that are trying to get the slavery history of the United States removed from history books.

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RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? - 1/24/2013 6:09:55 PM   
littlewonder


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yup, never happened according to them.

I even heard one guy on a news station say that the two towers are still there, they are just hidden by an illusion. Stupidity at its finest.

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