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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 10:57:32 AM

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Joined: 3/22/2005
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Been there, done that and did NOT buy the t-shirt. She needs to face three things: (1) Its his pattern--it will not change (2) She wants more out of the relationship (3) She accepts the scenario or she makes some radical changes.

A) As long as she let's him get away with it he will keep on going just as he is... B) She has to get another lover...
C) Be Done with him and move on...

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 10:57:55 AM

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Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline

This was my first post on this issue:

quote:

ok I have a question based on all of this... why is it that everyone is saying that if the husband doesnt have sex with her, that he doesnt care or doesnt love her? Sex does not = love no matter how you slice it. Perhaps the man wants her companionship? But not the responsibility of the sexual aspect. She is the one that needs to decide what she wants to do.

I spent 6 years with ( off and on ) with a man in a basically sexless relationship. I was there and he was there and there was just as much love between us as most relationships but there just wasnt sex. ( well not very often atleast) I went into that relationship totally sex driven and for a while it confused me too because I equated sex with love. I learned though that I would much rather have the man, his company, his support, than his dick.
JMO YMMV

Thats WHY I said in the first place that she has to be responsible for herself.
The reiteration of the same point over and over and over again was because it kept getting attacked by other people.
As soon as I pointed out to take a look at ones self instead of placing the blame and shame and labeling the pther person abusive, people got offended and started blaming me for their reactions. I am NOT responsible for their reactions and their being offended because I said look at yourself.

When attacked for saying someone should be responsible for themselves and not blame others for their actions, I was in turn blamed for their views, thus why it got repeated.

quote:

I was puzzled as to why you said this in the first place and then began to insist it over and over and over again. I think it was valid to make the point once or twice or maybe even three times but I cannot see what was gained by making the point ad nauseum. At the point of endless repetition of your assertion is when it began to seem, to some, that you were ganging up on someone because you just kept pointing the finger at her, and the more you pointed the more upset she got and the more you seemed to gloat.

Ok but it isnt viewed as repititious for her to continually lay blame for her actions on someone else? Then eventually on me? And note when her continual point was not seen I became a bitch, she became out of control. Her point still trying to be made of well it was HIS fault... especially in the comment of well I should have left but then he got sick, its not his fault he got sick, its not his fault she decided to stay at that point. She knew the situation was not of her liking and she decided to stay, then complain about how it was him who made her want to kill herself, it was him who abused her.

After the point of realization that a situation is not to your liking, the longer you stay in that relationship is YOUR doing no one elses. You are not a victim once you make the conscious choice to stay.

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to sskitten)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:11:25 AM

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quote:

haven't seen you say one thing about the men in these situations other than they are being blamed. I see you saying over and over and over that the women who complain should take responsiblity.

How do you think these men should take responsibility then if you believe that both have responsibility? Can you give us some examples?

uh huh I said they should take responsibility for themselves, I never said take responsibility for the whole relationship, just themselves.

Can I give examples, yes, but the mens side of this was not posted, they did not come here saying they are victims, they did not come here calling women abusers because they pressure them into sex. So what does my input on what they should do when none of their information is here help the matters any?

Easy, it doesnt.

But I'll play along.

I have said before that these men have gone to seek help, they did try medication ( or well some did ). I also said that they should help foot the bill for toys.

Note I also said that after trying these things they were still pushed to do what they did not want to do.

If they went to get help, tried the help, decided they did not like the help because they still felt pressured to do what they did not, they in that case DID accept responsibility for their lack of sexual wants.

But because the treatment did not yield her desired outcome, he then became the unwilling to help asshole, and abuser.

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:22:57 AM

incognitobynight

Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline

[/quote]

It can be quite difficult to shift your focus from trying make something work, to embracing the fact that it isn't GOING to work.

Once that point is reached it's VERY hard to continue in a relationship.

People opt out of relationships mentally and sometimes *forget* to inform their partner that they've done so......it can take a long time to realise that all the different avenues you're trying to solve the situation are going to lead to the same outcome because your partner isn't committed to being *there*.

These realisations often come in a drip drip fashion and, as you say.....not everyone is in a position to up and cast off their lives for many reasons from mental strength, lack of support to fear of the unknown.

When you are unhappy over a long period of time it can make decision-making very difficult too and the soul searching that takes place can be tiring, checking your motives and questioning yourself etc.

agirl

agirl,

what you say is very true. Sometimes I don't understand my inertia. My head knows what I must do. Why can't I make my body go ahead and do it? The only thing I can say is that I hold out hope that the goals I have set with my therapist will be met. I know it is up to me. In three days time it will be my wedding anniversary. I am not looking forward to that day, however, it will present another opportunity for me to restate "the state of our union" and let him know again that things are not alright between us. It will be a hard day for me.

[/quote]

(in reply to agirl)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:29:22 AM

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

haven't seen you say one thing about the men in these situations other than they are being blamed. I see you saying over and over and over that the women who complain should take responsiblity.

How do you think these men should take responsibility then if you believe that both have responsibility? Can you give us some examples?

uh huh I said they should take responsibility for themselves, I never said take responsibility for the whole relationship, just themselves.

Can I give examples, yes, but the mens side of this was not posted, they did not come here saying they are victims, they did not come here calling women abusers because they pressure them into sex. So what does my input on what they should do when none of their information is here help the matters any?

Easy, it doesnt.

But I'll play along.

I have said before that these men have gone to seek help, they did try medication ( or well some did ). I also said that they should help foot the bill for toys.

Note I also said that after trying these things they were still pushed to do what they did not want to do.

If they went to get help, tried the help, decided they did not like the help because they still felt pressured to do what they did not, they in that case DID accept responsibility for their lack of sexual wants.

But because the treatment did not yield her desired outcome, he then became the unwilling to help asshole, and abuser.

Let me see if I can list your list of responsibilities for the sexless partner.

He should get help.... what kind? Once, twice, ongoing? Alone or together?

He should try medication... sadly this is the standard "treatment" for men isn't it?

And anything else?

Here's my list for the sexless partner:

Realize that your partner has needs, that this isn't just your issue nor is it just their issue; it is a relationship issue that you both need to work on.

Get tested for any medical problems you might have -- if so, get the appropriate medicine for you or start to change your lifestyle. Ask your partner for help, afterall this is the relationship's issue and you can both work on it together.

Go to therapy to address your feelings and thoughts -- together and alone.

Try to find other ways to express affection and do them.

Resist caving in when you feel pressured to have sex -- this is where individual therapy can help.

Explore other venues for sexuality don't just say "no" before you try something -- together may be best but be open to other arrangments.

If first it doesn't work, try again and always talk about what you are feeling. Both types of therapy can help with this.

Try to be careful with the words you use and try to make your actions matches your words.

If it still isn't working out be brave and responsible enough to say "I'm sorry, but we need to move on."

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/22/2006 11:33:09 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:31:55 AM

incognitobynight

Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline

[/quote]

[/quote]
You learn to reach out and reach in to find support so you can keep trying. You learn to celebrate those good choices and to not beat yourself or others up over the poor ones.

[/quote]

Tammyjo,

Whooo BOY could I tell you some hair raising tales about making some bad choices. Last year, when I came out of what I refer to now as my "coma", I was alot like a patient coming out of a real coma. My emotions were raw, I had a lot of crazy impulses, I think because I was feeling things again, where I had sorta shut that down for years. I was out of practice I think. I made some HORRIBLY expensive decisions that were all raging co-dependency related. In retrospect, since it is now behind me, (although I am still paying the price for those bad decisions) I can laugh at how "knee jerk" and "easily manipulated" I was during that time. I consider it a phase of the reawakening and am thankful it is over and that I survived it still intact. I hope I learned a few things from those experiences and I think I have forgiven myself for them, although I feel my face burn still, when I think of them.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:39:32 AM

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TammyJo,

I did not say what, where, how long, or any other kind of medical treatment he should get... you however chose to take and snip apart what I said. But I did say that he should seek treatment, so what the hell does it matter the whos whats where whens whys and how longs? The point is get help, period.

quote:

If it still isn't working out be brave and responsible enough to say "I'm sorry, but we need to move on."

Ok, so a relationship that may be working for him on all levels except sexual, he should throw that away because his partner wants something he has no desire in....

The relationship isnt Not working for him, its not working for his partner. Thus its his partners responsibility to say hey I want something you wont give me and I'm not willing to stay in a relationship that doesnt include it.

To walk away from the relationship would be for him to internalize her dissatisfaction with a relationship that works for him, thus causing himself undue hurts. Thats NOT his responsibility to bear.

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:48:06 AM

incognitobynight

Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

To walk away from the relationship would be for him to internalize her dissatisfaction with a relationship that works for him, thus causing himself undue hurts. Thats NOT his responsibility to bear.

LOL. I tried and tried and tried to understand that last little paragraph, but it just made my eyes cross.....could you restate it another way, and maybe I will get it. (serious)

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:51:29 AM

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

TammyJo,

I did not say what, where, how long, or any other kind of medical treatment he should get... you however chose to take and snip apart what I said. But I did say that he should seek treatment, so what the hell does it matter the whos whats where whens whys and how longs? The point is get help, period.

quote:

If it still isn't working out be brave and responsible enough to say "I'm sorry, but we need to move on."

Ok, so a relationship that may be working for him on all levels except sexual, he should throw that away because his partner wants something he has no desire in....

The relationship isnt Not working for him, its not working for his partner. Thus its his partners responsibility to say hey I want something you wont give me and I'm not willing to stay in a relationship that doesnt include it.

To walk away from the relationship would be for him to internalize her dissatisfaction with a relationship that works for him, thus causing himself undue hurts. Thats NOT his responsibility to bear.

AH

I think I finally see why you and I are at odds on this.

You think this is about individuals.

I think it is about a relationship.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 11:56:46 AM

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TammyJo,

I see relationships as well but thats a nice little attempted dig.

But in all reality people are still individuals before they are anything else, thus the reason why so many times when a slave gets too caught up with her Master and withdraws, she runs away, because she lost her individuality. Dehumanization in any form and in any relationship is not a good practice, because eventually it leads to the shame and blame game of well he made me or he took away my....

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:05:06 PM

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Joined: 4/25/2006
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lol incognito, I'm sorry lol but I dont know which I am sorrier for... laughing cause the thought of being crosseyed trying to read something and understand it, or me posting it bad enough that it made ya get that way....

I'm sorry lemme see if I can restate it a little better for you...

For a man to take on the responsibility of leaving and walking away that would mean that he had to internalize ( or view badly within himself) the situation, when he may not see it as bad at all. If He has taken the time to try and seek help and it has failed then he very well may say well I tried and its still not what I want. For him to then say well I give up on a woman I love and a relationship I want would take a lot of self abuse of the internalization.

Why I said that isnt his responsibility to bear is because he may not see a problem with the relationship as a whole. If he is happy and living his life and thriving then he has no need or want to give up or walk away from that relationship. If the partner feels that they are unable to handle the relationship the way it is now then it is their place to say I'm sorry but this is not what I feel is best for me. Which in a lot of cases is what needs to be done, and no it isnt easy by any means. But to say its his fault or he should have to end it isnt right to me, because he more than likely sees nothing wrong with the relationship, its the partner that is feeling the wrong.

I hope that helped some? If the crosseyes stay around lemme know.... I'll try again...

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:08:37 PM

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Joined: 4/25/2006
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quote:

*clapping*

Good for you.

Thanks!!! I think so too

quote:

You learn to do something different this time around. Now this is a danger cause it might not work out this time either -- you have to learn to continue to try new actions and new decisions. It is easy to give up.

You learn to reach out and reach in to find support so you can keep trying. You learn to celebrate those good choices and to not beat yourself or others up over the poor ones.

You learn to cast off others who try to keep you from growing and learning to make choices.

uh huh, you take responsibility for yourself and your goals, your life.

quote:

Maybe at the end you also learn to help others along the process of learning to take care of themselves better.

uh huh, you tell them to take responsibility for themselves...

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:12:15 PM

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Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe

Ok ... bar restocked... fresh coffee and all... make sure yall clean up after yourselves.. Veronica still isn't back and I am too busy today....

RS.... i'm sure you've seen Owned and I talking about a horse in other threads... let me know when you need my shovel. In mean time... stand firm... because I've not seen nothing wrong with your post... other than you state what you want without the sugar coating. And that alone.. pisses others off more. You say what you mean...and mean what you say. Makes it harder for others to grasp sometimes.

Jessica

*smiles*..and doesn't believe she is saying this

..but I totally agree with you, Jessica.. RS...is doing very well holding her own..as she usually does. That is one thing I have always liked about her.. we may not always agree on everything..but she always says exactly what she thinks and then stands behind it...as do you and I... I believe.

~Ticia

_____________________________

All my soul follows you, love encircles you and I live in being yours. ~Browning

Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true. ~Buddha

(in reply to BreakMeShakeMe)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:20:38 PM

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*just shakes head and sighs*

To anyone else in a situation similar to what was discussed in the OP, I'll repeat what I think I said best in another post here.

"Wow, that sucks that you feel this way and that you feel your efforts have been shot down by your husband. Are you therapy? That could help because you have a choice in front of you now that you know you don't want to stay in this situation. I don't think your husband is gonna be much help either, this sadly is going to have to be your decision about what to do next. I'm glad you have friends who encourage you (that you) can turn to and I'm glad you came here asking if others have been through the same thing. Good luck with this decision and good wishes as you carry it out."

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:22:02 PM

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Joined: 4/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisTicia

quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe

Ok ... bar restocked... fresh coffee and all... make sure yall clean up after yourselves.. Veronica still isn't back and I am too busy today....

RS.... i'm sure you've seen Owned and I talking about a horse in other threads... let me know when you need my shovel. In mean time... stand firm... because I've not seen nothing wrong with your post... other than you state what you want without the sugar coating. And that alone.. pisses others off more. You say what you mean...and mean what you say. Makes it harder for others to grasp sometimes.

Jessica

*smiles*..and doesn't believe she is saying this..but I totally agree with you, Jessica.. RS...is doing very well holding her own..as she usually does. That is one thing I have always liked about her.. we may not always agree on everything..but she always says exactly what she thinks and then stands behind it...as do you and I... I believe.

~Ticia

ok I am being cheap and cheating by using the whole post as a quote so I can reply to both of you...

You're not getting lollies and stickers

heh

On a serious note though, I would never say something I dont intend to stick by especially when it is something that has to do with responsibility. I have a lot of that in my life and I have lost a lot because of not being responsible so I know the consequences.

Plus its not like I said some statement thats supposed to cause some great epiphany or something, its the basic course of being an adult, taking responsiblity for yourself and your actions....

*hugs ya both n smiles*

Ticia,

Hunny did you ever figure out what you're going to do with your situation?

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to HisTicia)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:24:23 PM

incognitobynight

Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

Why I said that isnt his responsibility to bear is because he may not see a problem with the relationship as a whole. If he is happy and living his life and thriving then he has no need or want to give up or walk away from that relationship. If the partner feels that they are unable to handle the relationship the way it is now then it is their place to say I'm sorry but this is not what I feel is best for me. Which in a lot of cases is what needs to be done, and no it isnt easy by any means. But to say its his fault or he should have to end it isnt right to me, because he more than likely sees nothing wrong with the relationship, its the partner that is feeling the wrong.

I hope that helped some? If the crosseyes stay around lemme know.... I'll try again...

Yeah, I think I understand it better. Basically (and stated yet a third way), what you are saying is that the man (or the person who is happy in the relationship that is deficient for the other party)shouldn't feel guilty that they could not satisfy their partner. In other words, my husband is very happy, to expect him to leave me to "save me from what disatisfies me" should not be expected. He's happy....why should he leave? Thats kinda what your guy did, wasn't it? He "saved you" from what he perceived would be a life less full for you, then if you were with someone younger, even though it meant he had to give you up.

Well you are right (dammit), it is not realistic to think my husband would leave what makes him happy. I confess...I wish he would....lol But no, I don't expect that of him. If he was like your guy, he would have let me go the several times I have tried unsuccessfully to end the relationship. I don't blame him. I have just have to learn to be as strong as he is, as selfish (as opposed to selfless) as he is. I have to develop a thicker skin, a firm belief that my happiness is as important as his. Thats always been the kicker for me. For many years I confused his happiness for my own. Then, I sacrificed my happiness for his. As I have said many times, for me it is a process (albeit a slow one) and discovering who I am and what makes me tick has been the first step, the second step is not lying to him about who I am and what I need. It's not fair. I don't think he can change this, but he deserves to know that I am unhappy and what my intentions are. I have verbalized them many times when the opportunity presented itself, but I don't harp on it and I think he easily gets lulled back into a false sense of security (which makes me feel guilty ALL OVER again...lol...it's a vicious cycle)

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:26:06 PM

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From: Jersey
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When we do have conversations about this, when things tend to reach a crisis point, his reaction is usually to be hurt, to beg me to give him another chance and he will actually get motivated to do something (see a doctor, TRY and be with me, work harder in other areas of our lives to make me happy). He says he is ashamed of what he has deprived me of and always .....believes I think, that he can overcome this. This complicates it for me even more. If you met him, you would like him. He is a big goofy, vulnerable, good natured fellow. And know matter what people say, I know he loves me and depends on me for so much. He is just a little bit better than I am at getting (and keeping) what he needs and wants (sad, but true). (don't get me wrong, he can be a little shit at times too, and still has some control issues that drive me nuts, but he is not a bad person). It's not going to be easy, and when the day comes what will make it harder is that his pain will turn what he feels towards me to hatred. There is no doubt about this....it has been discussed before. I'm not looking forward to that either.

Are you sure you have made it clear to him just how serious this is to you? Is he clear that this is "deal breaker" material for you?

An interesting detail about his upbringing. His mother and father stayed married, but they lived in separate apartments in the same apartment complex. His father came over and visited with the family and ate all his meals there, but then at night went home to his own apartment. To my husband, I think, a "normal" relationship is what he grew up witnessing. Interesting.....don't ya think?

Yes, we tend to live what we grew up with. Though, its not an excuse, and the cycle has to stop *somewhere*. Is he willing to go to counseling?

And I dont mean to be crude and you've probably already done this, but how about just jumping his bones like an animal? I dont want to get graphic here, but maybe some really aggressive type of lustful seduction????

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:26:33 PM

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Here's my list for the sexless partner:

Realize that your partner has needs, that this isn't just your issue nor is it just their issue; it is a relationship issue that you both need to work on.

Get tested for any medical problems you might have -- if so, get the appropriate medicine for you or start to change your lifestyle. Ask your partner for help, afterall this is the relationship's issue and you can both work on it together.

Go to therapy to address your feelings and thoughts -- together and alone.

Try to find other ways to express affection and do them.

Resist caving in when you feel pressured to have sex -- this is where individual therapy can help.

Explore other venues for sexuality don't just say "no" before you try something -- together may be best but be open to other arrangments.

If first it doesn't work, try again and always talk about what you are feeling. Both types of therapy can help with this.

Try to be careful with the words you use and try to make your actions matches your words.

If it still isn't working out be brave and responsible enough to say "I'm sorry, but we need to move on."

All of these things would be nice....but they are not requirements. The only real requirement is to acknowledge that he no longer wishes to have sex. If it is important to him he can seek treatment. If it's important to him he can work on the problem. But maybe it's not important to him at all. Maybe he is just comfortable not having sex. If that is the case....he doesn't have a problem....he is perfectly happy with the situation as it is.

Now, if she is not as happy with it....then SHE has a problem that she has to deal with and make a decision on. I enjoy getting up very early in the morning. If you don't like that it doesn't become a problem for me....it's only a problem to you.

If my partner has long hair when I meet him...and I have placed this huge value on it and have a need for it to stay long...is my partner being abusive to me if he gets a haircut? Does he have a problem because one day he may decide he wants short hair? Should he get treatment and therapy for it?

No of course not. If he cuts his hair and he's happy and comfortable with that then I have to make a decision whether or not I can deal with being in a relationship with a man with short hair.

My ex was clean and sober when we met. We built our life and relationship based upon that sobriety. Many years into it he decided he was going to drink. He decided that was what he wanted to do. I was then faced with the decision of whether or not I could live with a man who was an alcoholic.

In life we don't get the option of being responsible for another's decsions, actions or reactions....we only get to be responsible for our own decisions, actions and reactions. I had to decide, own the responsibility of and live with the consequences of that decision. It is something that we all have to do in life.

How do we learn to do this? By living. It's a process that starts as small children and goes hand in hand with maturity. We learn at the age of 3 or so that if we shit we need to be resonsible to wipe our own ass. If we don't take good care of our toys and break them we no longer have them to play with. If we treat other kids poorly they won't be our friends. If we don't do our homework we won't get good grades. If we eat all the cookies in one setting we won't have any for later. If we break our parents rules there will be consequences. As we go through life...hundreds...thousands of lessons in responsibility.

As we become adults we continue to learn. If we don't change the oil in our car it blows up. If we drive too fast we get a ticket. If we want to make money we have to work.

Most people learn all of these things without having to take a college course or enroll in therapy. Things that apply to our wants, needs and emotions are no exception. We learn them as we go. Most of us learn to accept these responsibilities. If we make a decision to not put oil in the car and it blows up...we don't blame the car. If we make a decision to drive 100 miles an hour...we don't blame the cop who writes the ticket. If we make a decision to stay in an unfulfilling relationship that we know is going to remain unfulfilling....we don't have the right to blame our partner for our unfulfillment.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/22/2006 12:32:15 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:34:11 PM

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No disrespect intended Knight. But that may be easy to say when you have 3 available women to meet your sexual needs. How would you feel in a *monogamous* marriage, resigning yourself to never having sex again....oh.....or ANY kind of affection for that matter. Suck it up and masturbate for the rest of your life? Maybe wrap your arms around yourself? Kiss your own hand and pretend its your spouse? People in marriages need affections, bonding and intimacy of a physical nature.

Furthermore your example of women complaining that men want sex, held up against this women who was in a sexless marriage complaining about not getting sex is comparing apples to oranges. You are taking a generalization of "women complaining about men wanting sex" and holding one person in particular responsible for that, in implying that she complains that shes not getting it from her husband. That was really out there.

No Disrespect Recieved... You seem to miss the point of the post. First.... A person makes a choice to stay or leave such a relationship. I don't have much use for those that make the choice to stay, but they whine and cry about how hard it is SUCK IT UP or leave.

You have to know you have the ability to make a choice before you can make one.

You have to be able to cover out that choice when you've made it.

Not everyone has had the same upbringing, education, or supportive networks that some of us do. They may not know they have other options and they may not have the means to carry them out.

Think that's stupid and adults should know better? How do aduls know better? How did you learn you had other options? How do you go about becoming able to carry out your choices?

Thats how I kind of see it too Tammjo. I guess thats why I come from a more compassionate angle most of the time. Sometimes people need conversation and to examine things and hear different points of view. Sometime the smallest comment, said a certain way, can make you look at something in a way that never crossed your mind, and help to give you that boost you need to move forward. However, I think over played phrases like "suck it up", "get over it", and the like are rather non-productive

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:36:27 PM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitobynight

Well you are right (dammit), it is not realistic to think my husband would leave what makes him happy. I confess...I wish he would....lol But no, I don't expect that of him. If he was like your guy, he would have let me go the several times I have tried unsuccessfully to end the relationship. I don't blame him. I have just have to learn to be as strong as he is, as selfish (as opposed to selfless) as he is. I have to develop a thicker skin, a firm belief that my happiness is as important as his. Thats always been the kicker for me. For many years I confused his happiness for my own. Then, I sacrificed my happiness for his. As I have said many times, for me it is a process (albeit a slow one) and discovering who I am and what makes me tick has been the first step, the second step is not lying to him about who I am and what I need. It's not fair. I don't think he can change this, but he deserves to know that I am unhappy and what my intentions are. I have verbalized them many times when the opportunity presented itself, but I don't harp on it and I think he easily gets lulled back into a false sense of security (which makes me feel guilty ALL OVER again...lol...it's a vicious cycle)

I see a problem with this.

There is a big difference between being proactive and being passive when its clear things are not working out. (This assumes you and he have tried to work it out; I still say this is a relationship and you have a responsibility to yourself and each other and the relationship to try and work it out).

He can be proactive in two ways: he can say "its over babe, sorry it didn't work, and leave"

OR he can try to convince you to stay on, talk you out of leaving, remove money from your joint account (if you have one) so you can't get therapy or leave, maybe even use legal means to slow down your leaving.

The passive thing would be to just listen to you, not care, and then do nothing when you get the help you need so you can make your choice and carry through on it.

Now this is just me but of these three things above I'd interprete them as follows:

1) he really does love you and he wants the best relationship possible for both of you so he'd going to move on; he has just as good a shot at finding someone who will be happy with him as you do now

2) he's trying to control you or he's lashing out at you for your unhappiness -- blaming you for things not being perfect and hoping to punish

3) he doesn't care; he really really doesn't care either because he has his own issues he isn't dealing with and he's numb or because he's stopped feeling for you and for the relationship. It happens, things change. It sucks.

It all sucks at some level.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to incognitobynight)

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