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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:44:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

All of these things would be nice....but they are not requirements. The only real requirement is to acknowledge that he no longer wishes to have sex. If it is important to him he can seek treatment. If it's important to him he can work on the problem. But maybe it's not important to him at all. Maybe he is just comfortable not having sex. If that is the case....he doesn't have a problem....he is perfectly happy with the situation as it is.

Now, if she is not as happy with it....then SHE has a problem that she has to deal with and make a decision on. I enjoy getting up very early in the morning. If you don't like that it doesn't become a problem for me....it's only a problem to you.

I see relationships such as a marriage as a partnership -- what effects one, effects the other. If I am unhappy my partner will be unhappy; if he is unhappy I am unhappy.

You make a committment to the relationship and that means compromising. All I see in your comments and in RS is that she makes a choice, he does nothing. No, they are in a relationship, they make the choices, they agreed to be together now they have to deal with things together.

Take your example of getting up earlier. Sure get up early but does that mean you are being a good partner if you also decide to blast music, bounce on the bed, or scream at me to get up?

Or the hair thing. If he cuts his hair and this turns you off sexually then hey, guess he made his choice, huh especially if you told him it was what attracted you? Now he can do something else to turn you on or you can try to find other reasons to find him attractive.

I think in both cases your relationship will have more success if you work together.

But if you constantly think that its just you and only you, I can't see how good of relationship that would be. You might as well live alone at that point or rent to houses or do something else but geesh if you are in a relationship act like you are in a relationship or get out.

(the "you" here isn't person specific)

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:47:05 PM

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*smiles softly*

Its definately not a fun situation, I feel horrible that you're still stuck in yours. I was lucky that mine did I guess save me from myself, not everyone is going to have that experience and I understand that.

One thing you may find that helps is realizing that you deserve to be happy, even if it is without your husband. I have never said that anyone should be condemned to unhappiness just that they should not blame the other for their unhappiness.

You have been strong this whole thread in the fact that you do love your husband despite the hurting that you feel, and thats hard. Its hard to essentially walk out of someones life when you still care. From your posts its almost like you're feeling bad because the man is decent, you do love him, and if it wasnt for the physical losses you'd be ok together. The biggest thing I think that could help is knowing that it is ok for you to feel like you are missing something, because in all honesty if you want and miss that part of your life then you are going without.

Unless you can visualize yourself in a relationship for the rest of your life and know in your heart that you wont resent him and hate him for it then stay.

But from what you've said you dont want that, so you have to decide if what you want is worth letting go of what you have. If you can say yes that it is, then its best to talk with him and let him know that you arent blaming him, you arent trying to intentionally hurt him, but for the years you have tried to understand his lack of wants you would hope that he could find it within himself to try and atleast understand that you either need him to show you some kind of physical attention * ie cuddling, hugging, a physical bond* or to understand that you need to part ways because you feel that you are hurting yourself and missing a part of yourself that he can not give you.

Reassure him that you dont hate him, let him know that you arent blaming him, that your desires and his desires just dont equate to a together lifestyle for you anymore.

No one said that if you leave you cant still be the best of friends, and in some cases a break apart will allow him the physical space he needs to not feel pressured and it'll allow you the time to heal and find what you need and want... but in the end allow you both to atleast maintain a great friendship.

Walking away from a marriage doesnt mean leaving that person to fend for themselves, you can be there just as much as you are for him now, but without the self hurt that you inflict trying to make heads and tales of the situation as a couple...

God I hope that made some sense.... I need a nap but I wanted to post before I head that way....

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:52:10 PM

incognitobynight

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Joined: 6/12/2006
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Yes, we tend to live what we grew up with. Though, its not an excuse, and the cycle has to stop *somewhere*. Is he willing to go to counseling?

And I dont mean to be crude and you've probably already done this, but how about just jumping his bones like an animal? I dont want to get graphic here, but maybe some really aggressive type of lustful seduction????

Yeah, I did try that in the first year we were together. I was laughing rebuffed time and time again. For a long time (and even now to some degree) even though I am his THIRD WIFE, I thought it was a matter of not being experienced, and I adopted a "let me teach you how" approach. It was not very pleasant for either of us, and after awhile, that unpleasantness had an effect on me to where I didn't try either. Last year, when this all came to a head and I ran down the list of options with him, I suggested hiring a sex surrogate FOR HIM. Someone that he could "learn with" that he wasn't so emotionally invested in and that he wouldn't (hopefully) feel so inadequate or awkward around. He vehemently said NO, he didn't ever want to be with anyone but me (sigh). He did try medication and got some gorgeous erections, but he wouldn't touch me with his hands. We attempted intercourse twice and when he entered me, he immediately lost the erection. Marie, I swear, I don't think he saw anything wrong with that, and even though it ended right there, he seemed to think that was just fine. I was .......speechless....lol I have suggested soft porn movies and when something comes on HBO he scoffs at my watching them and either changes the channel or if I protest, leaves the room.

We did go to counseling after we separated where two things happened. 1) I said I wasn't interested in saving the marriage. (I was dismissed from further sessions after that). 2) the diagnosis of Sexual Aversion Disorder was made. My husband was so desperate to get me back, that he told the therapist he wanted to focus on understanding me, and didn't allow the direction of the therapy session (at least this is what I have gathered based on things HE hmself told me) to go back to the sexual problem. In that initial session, both the therapist and I asked POINT BLANK if there had been sexual activity in his previous marriages. He said yes, but he was very, very vague and gave a litany of excuses as to why it didn't happen very often (religious upbringing, work schedules, partying, then problems in the marriages etc., etc,). I don't think he buys the diagnosis of Sexual Aversion Disorder and as a result........it goes "untreated" if there even IS treatment for that. He only went to three counseling sessions altogether and then was told he had to have some serious eye surgery that would take really intensive aftercare, so he came back home. I told him then, that this was not a happy reunion, but he said he wanted to take this opportunity to make things right and try again and I told him I would permit that one last chance. Well, 7 months later here we are, and we haven't had even the briefest of intimacy between us. Once or twice, both times when my hands were full with dishes or laundry, he came up and put his arms around me, (with the dishes or laundry between us) and has kissed me on the cheek and moist eyed has told me that I am "the bestest".....(double sigh).

Now, I am going to tell you something. I love my husband, but I stopped seeing him as a man a long time ago. I see him more like a family member. I can't picture us having sex.....it's no longer something I desire with HIM. HOWEVER, that being said, I KNOW how adaptable I am. I KNOW that if there was a chance, that I could overcome what ails me to make it work. I just don't know if I have it in me to try and try and try and still face rejection. Do you know what I mean?

(in reply to marieToo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:54:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
You make a committment to the relationship and that means compromising. All I see in your comments and in RS is that she makes a choice, he does nothing. No, they are in a relationship, they make the choices, they agreed to be together now they have to deal with things together.

You're right...relationships that work are about compromise. But we aren't talking about a relationship that is working here now are we? What you are failing to see is that he has not done nothing as you say. He has done something. He has made his decision. He has made his choice. It seems he has no desire to change that decision or choice. So where does that leave her? It leaves her to take the responsibility for making her own decision and choice based upon his.

quote:

But if you constantly think that its just you and only you, I can't see how good of relationship that would be. You might as well live alone at that point or rent to houses or do something else but geesh if you are in a relationship act like you are in a relationship or get out.

I'm really glad that you have said this....because that is exactly what HE has done. He has decided that he is going to be true to what he wants and make it only about him. Guess you can see from his example how good a relationship that makes for. And you're right....now that it has been reduced to that they might as well just live alone, rent two houses.......or act like it or get out.....but I think that is what we have been saying right along now isn't it. Either take the responsibility to live with it or take the responsibility to end it.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:05:12 PM

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quote:

He can be proactive in two ways: he can say "its over babe, sorry it didn't work, and leave"

quote:

OR he can try to convince you to stay on, talk you out of leaving, remove money from your joint account (if you have one) so you can't get therapy or leave, maybe even use legal means to slow down your leaving.

And which did your husband choose? because I dont see an option of staying with the wife and allowing her to have someone else as well.

quote:

The passive thing would be to just listen to you, not care, and then do nothing when you get the help you need so you can make your choice and carry through on it.

ok, so now listening equates with not caring?

What about he listens, cares, allows you time to get therapy and make a decision all the while not pushing or trying to force you into doing something you dont want to do?

What about they are in a relationship together and have to think of eachother and not individuals, therefor both trying to make it work?

quote:

1) he really does love you and he wants the best relationship possible for both of you so he'd going to move on; he has just as good a shot at finding someone who will be happy with him as you do now

He loves you, wants the best to work for the relationship but at the same times leaves you? how does that work?

quote:

2) he's trying to control you or he's lashing out at you for your unhappiness -- blaming you for things not being perfect and hoping to punish

ok so now its he's taking sex away as a punishment.... how many of these situations have you seen? Because from experience in a situation like that the husband will either cheat or is most certainly not "happy" and continuing to find happiness within the relationship.

quote:

3) he doesn't care; he really really doesn't care either because he has his own issues he isn't dealing with and he's numb or because he's stopped feeling for you and for the relationship. It happens, things change. It sucks.

Again, if he is happy within this relationship and is still thriving, how is it that he doesnt care? If he asks her not to leave because he loves her, that means he doesnt care?

Maybe this is why we dont mesh well on subjects, because I dont see a bit of sense in any of those arguments.... except trying to make him responsible for someone elses unhappiness.

What happened to you can not be happy within a relationship if you are unhappy with yourself? Seems to me that got blown out of the window here because the man is happy and in a relationship, so how is it his fault and his responsibility to walk out on it?

< Message edited by Reflectivesoul -- 6/22/2006 1:09:15 PM >

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:09:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I'm really glad that you have said this....because that is exactly what HE has done. He has decided that he is going to be true to what he wants and make it only about him.

On the other hand, one should never feel that they have to compromise their sense of self, or give up something they seriously value, or lower their standards for a relationship. You have to find a way to be true to yourself AND be fulfilled in the relationship with someone else.

And sometimes there's no way to do that with a particular person.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:15:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

And sometimes there's no way to do that with a particular person.

LA,

We've been saying that ALL along... that is the point where you have to make the conscious effort and decision to either stay in the relationship because there are other aspects you dont wqant to be without, or you make the decision that there is too much of a gap and you leave.

This decision is your responsibility, not someone elses to make for you.

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:28:31 PM

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Joined: 4/25/2006
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quote:

Now, I am going to tell you something. I love my husband, but I stopped seeing him as a man a long time ago. I see him more like a family member. I can't picture us having sex.....it's no longer something I desire with HIM. HOWEVER, that being said, I KNOW how adaptable I am. I KNOW that if there was a chance, that I could overcome what ails me to make it work. I just don't know if I have it in me to try and try and try and still face rejection. Do you know what I mean?

ok 2 things...

1st if you no longer see him as a man then what does rejecting your attentions have to do with it?

2nd Dont set yourself up to fail.

On a side note I think if you really believed you dont see him as a man you wouldnt hurt so bad that the physical bond isnt there. Trying to see it that way and not feel that way will eat you up inside because you're fighting a non winable battle. Wanting him it still there if you're wanting to still stay in the relationship. Seeing him as family and not a man OUCH..... but I know exactly what that is because I went through that phase too. I thought it would be the worlds best cure to the situation, stop seeing him as the man he I wanted and poof no more desire, no more lust, no more problem.... WRONG..... I could no more trick my body into not responding to him than he could trick his into actually responding to mine.

He is still a man, as beautiful, powerful, desirous as he was the day you met him, that will never change hunny, I hate to tell you that too.... but what I found that helped when I got to that realization was knowing that this man could love me without physically wanting me because he didnt want anyone. Its not that he was putting me on a back burner or that he was secretly coveting the neighboirs wife, he just didnt want anyone like "that". After I came to grips with that part it went pretty well for me.

I had no imaginary woman to hate because my man wanted her and I wasnt her... I had no actions to hate because he wasnt doing anything with anyone. All he did WANT was ME and my time, my company, my love. For me that was enough and it made me feel special because I knew he didnt want me for some superficial reason, he wanted everything I had worked to become and who *I* was not what he could get from me.

I dont know if any of that made sense to you incognito but it sure as hell helped me when I was in that boat, and now that I am out of it, I kinda want back in because I doubt there will EVER be another man that I can say wanted everything I was and ever will be.

<edited to add>

on that note, I wish you all happy posting... I am going to go take a nap, I'll be back latah...

< Message edited by Reflectivesoul -- 6/22/2006 1:30:09 PM >

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

Gimme some crayons, I want color and I want it now DAMNIT!

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:29:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisTicia

quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe

Ok ... bar restocked... fresh coffee and all... make sure yall clean up after yourselves.. Veronica still isn't back and I am too busy today....

RS.... i'm sure you've seen Owned and I talking about a horse in other threads... let me know when you need my shovel. In mean time... stand firm... because I've not seen nothing wrong with your post... other than you state what you want without the sugar coating. And that alone.. pisses others off more. You say what you mean...and mean what you say. Makes it harder for others to grasp sometimes.

Jessica

*smiles*..and doesn't believe she is saying this..but I totally agree with you, Jessica.. RS...is doing very well holding her own..as she usually does. That is one thing I have always liked about her.. we may not always agree on everything..but she always says exactly what she thinks and then stands behind it...as do you and I... I believe.

~Ticia

ok I am being cheap and cheating by using the whole post as a quote so I can reply to both of you...

You're not getting lollies and stickers heh

Dammit,,,,*stomps foot* and why not?? ...lol

_____________________________

All my soul follows you, love encircles you and I live in being yours. ~Browning

Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true. ~Buddha

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:38:39 PM

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul
LA,

We've been saying that ALL along... that is the point where you have to make the conscious effort and decision to either stay in the relationship because there are other aspects you dont wqant to be without, or you make the decision that there is too much of a gap and you leave.

This decision is your responsibility, not someone elses to make for you.

You're talking to the person who, in the very first reply to this thread, said

"so the only thing she can do is to change herself."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:38:40 PM

incognitobynight

Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

I kinda want back in because I doubt there will EVER be another man that I can say wanted everything I was and ever will be.

Um.............you want I should introduce you to him?????? (yeah, yeah, yeah).

I will be out of touch for awhile as well......night everyone!!!! I hope nobody feels I've been coddled, but I feel better today.....

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 1:48:35 PM

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Joined: 6/6/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisTicia

Dammit,,,,*stomps foot* and why not?? ...lol

Yeah.. what she said!... Why not?!?!?!?!?

Where the hell are those cheerios now?... <evil grin>

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do, Skill is knowing how to, Virtue is just doing it.

(in reply to HisTicia)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 2:01:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Yes I know Susan's situation... I have followed her posts since she began posting some time back and have shared a few private emails with her along the way.

Then your words are delivered to her from a different vantage point than someone who read her post as a stranger.

We all have to move along at our own pace. Maybe she's been stuck in this spot for a while. Im not privy to that. I could understand a friend giving a dose of tough love. But people usually need to do what they need to do and will move on when they've had their saturation of self-doubt, blame, and second guessing. Apparantly Susan isnt done with that. I dont see how being understanding and compassionate could ever be a harmful thing, as long as it is tempered with pointing the person in the right direction. I dont see it as being an enabler, but can understand how others would see it that way. Going back and forth on that would be redundant. I have no need to challenge anything you said.  I respect your opinion and agree with everything else you wrote. I hope that doesnt sound condescending, I just wanted it clear that your points were well-taken.

I take offence that her Husband was some sort of ogre because he didn't perform sexually.

I had to address this statement. Im sure you must be speaking in general terms here. No where did I state or imply that he was an ogre. In fact, I stressed that he was not to blame.

High numbers like myself that have sex on average more than once a day to those that just don't have it.

Im resisting the urge to make a tasteless joke here. I'll be good.

. No matter ones sex drive, it doesn't make them inadequate or weird or abusive. It's who they are.

Again, I personally did not imply that he was "abusive" or "weird". Im sure you are speaking just in general here.

I am confident that Susan in particular is going to find a way to overcome the residue of what she endured. But she will not if she keeps listening to all the sorry for you BS or gets caught up in the drama of her pain.

Im sure she will. But she will most likely do it in her own time...however long that may be...regardless of what anyone tells her. Its just how humans are built. I wish her the best.

I feel you have nothing to apologize for. You shared your thoughts.... emotional as they may of been. I took them with that in mind.

You are very gracious and I appreciate that.  Yes, "emotional" would be accurate,   but my tone here is non-argumentative. I hope that is clear.

marie.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 2:09:33 PM

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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

......if you are in a relationship act like you are in a relationship or get out.

your statement is not any different thann "Take responsibility for your choices". They choose to be in the relationship.... Then be in the relationship and Deal with it. To your words "ACT like you are in a relationship". Or as you have stated "Get Out".

Oh yeah that's right .... you said something about some don't know how to do it and they need to Learn it!

geesh.... If they are in a relationship... where are they going to Learn to "Act like they are in the relatioship". Maybe you should give your opinion on where a person should learn how to act like they are in a relationship... since that's what you think people should do.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 2:40:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I had to address this statement. Im sure you must be speaking in general terms here. No where did I state or imply that he was an ogre. In fact, I stressed that he was not to blame.

Correct... it was a general comment and not directed at anything you said. I should of made that clear in my statement.

quote:

Im resisting the urge to make a tasteless joke here. I'll be good.

mmmmmmm sometimes our urges should be um satisfied *w* I am not so good sadl to say *G*

quote:

Again, I personally did not imply that he was "abusive" or "weird". Im sure you are speaking just in general here.

correct, again I should of stated it better to avoid the confusion.

quote:

Im sure she will. But she will most likely do it in her own time...however long that may be...regardless of what anyone tells her. Its just how humans are built. I wish her the best.

I agree, in her own time alike anyone else will.

quote:

You are very gracious and I appreciate that. Yes, "emotional" would be accurate, but my tone here is non-argumentative. I hope that is clear.

I understood your tone to be completely non-argumentative. I think that I appreciate your view point better and can agree that compassion is useful and readily admit that it is not one of my stronger characteristics. Thou, I think many could be more compassionate to the situation, some are so compassionate that they are enabling and making excuses for the the apparent victims. Neither extemes are particularly useful..

thanks for you thoughts.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to marieToo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 2:40:17 PM

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Dear Incognito, thank you for sharing so much. There are some things that I find puzzling about your relationship (besides the lack of physical intimacy, which of course ranks #1!).

You have said that if you split up, your husband has made it very clear that being friends is not an option and that you fear he will hate you. (I actually can understand this in part because I harbor the same concern about my husband, if we split up.)

You have seemed to have had a hard time leaving (and have reunited) in large part out of guilt, believing that his life will be much worse off if you leave. It's probably true, but doesn't the fact of his having found three women to marry him suggest that he will quite likely be able to charm a fourth in the future?

If you leave the marriage while offering deep lasting friendship to your husband and he rebuffs the offer, wouldn't he by that act be saying that he does not need you any longer and prefers to manage on his own? And if that is what he has already told you would be his choice, then I wonder why you are taking on so much responsibility for his future happiness?

Do you perhaps need his lifelong friendship more than he needs yours? Or would a clean break be welcome for you? I can't really tell if enduring friendship with him is something you want for your own sake or if it's something you think might help ameliorate your guilt for leaving... so that you wouldn't fear ruining his life quite so badly...? Even with all the affection you feel for him, I can see where it could be very tricky to remain close friends while you also try to strike out on your own because you might find yourself sliding back into old patterns, as has happened before.

Basically what you seem to have right now is friendship, with the outward appearance of a marriage, and a one-way sense of obligation. It does not seem to be the kind of relationship where you two address your issues together. He does not seem interested in addressing his own issues or yours except with token efforts when you are on the verge of leaving. You are trying and trying and trying and he does not seem to be trying at all. You are looking after both of you and he is looking after himself and attempting to exert some control over you.

What he has done in the realm of interpersonal relationships has landed him three wives and cost him three wives. Others have said on this thread that repeating the same actions but expecting a different outcome is... unrealistic at best and maybe a little bit crazy. That's what you've done for ten years and that's what he's done for three marriages... unless he *wants* to keep luring and losing wives.

It seems you are really trying to struggle with your demons and learn and grow and break free and make a better life for yourself. It seems he is just coasting. (Am I wrong here? I do not mean to judge him. I know he cannot help having his disorder, but he has more than once begged you to return with the promise that he will try to make things better and then quickly abandons that promise without coming close to half-trying, and I guess I do fault him for that. I am glad you do not blame him but I find myself blaming him for that, anyhow.)

You've said that we do some of our grieving ahead of time, in preparation for an anticipated loss, and that is what you've done in regard to your home. Have you already grieved for the loss of your marriage/friendship or is that the part you are still working through? Are you planning to give him some heads-up time to grieve ahead of time, too, so that when the day comes, you will both be as emotionally prepared as possible?

Hugs,
Kitten

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 3:01:46 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitobynight

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I posted on this thread way back before all these tangents started being drawn in.

The OP stated a situation and asked for thoughts. The thoughts , if they don't want to do that, then accept it and move forward, the cries of "you don't understand" start. When they post that they aren't all that sympathetic with someone who chooses to stay in a situation but wants to complain about it, then the cries of "you don't understand or you haven't been there" start.

Interesting how the further away from just offering tea and sympathy we get, the worse we become.

I cheated...until I could not stand myself for being dishonest. I left. Suddenly, her sex drive came back. Seeing that, I moved back. Oddly enough, it went away again. I left for good. So, I've been there, done that. As I said in my original post, the person in question in the original post has a difficult decision to make. But it's way past time to do it. So now...am I judgmental? Well...so are we all, in something.

Creative Dominant,

A lot of what you say in your post is true. However, being on the receiving end of what feels like "harsh judgement being passed", it appeared to me that a lot of the usual suspects (i.e. regulars on the board) pretty much responded the way they respond to a multitude of threads and that is with a tone that says "suck it up or leave and if you don't leave, you deserve what you get". I was not looking for sympathy, I was sharing an experience (which is what the OP asked for). In response to sharing my experience, I got a bunch of unasked for advice, along with some pretty harsh commentary. These people appear to me to be COMPLAINING that I posted my experience, they don't want to hear it, they say. I wasn't TALKING TO THEM!!!!! Now, if they feel the MUST issue ultimatums to us ("suck it up, or leave"), don't be surprised if we react adversely to that.

I finish this with the request that you look at the last paragraph of your post. YOU went back because your ex suddenly found her sex drive, only to have to leave a second time. This tells me that while you were disatisfied in your relationship, it was not an easy thing for you to break it off permanently the first time. WHY would anyone think it was any easier for us? Why because you have "been there, done that".....would you feel that we aren't going to have to "go there and do that" before we are finally finished as well? Just a question. I sincerely and respectfully await your sympathetic,empathetic, tea-and-biscuit bought response.

And here it is:
First, if you are going to quote me, don't change my words without telling people that you've changed my words. Maybe your purpose isn't to put me in a different light than what I intended to put myself in but we'll let people judge that for themselves by comparing your "quote" of my words versus the quote I present below, as taken from the same post by me. I'll italicize the areas where your "quote" of my words differs from my own quote.
Here is the original paragraph from my post....
"The OP stated a situation and asked for thoughts. The thoughts that were expressed differed in nature. Why is it that when this type of post comes into play, anyone who sympathizes and offers a hug and encourages the person involved to "take care of you", and offers no contrary point of view, that person is viewed as totally understanding?
Yet, those who post that they can sympathize and empathize but recommend an action to get away from the situation, then the frowns come. When they post that they can sympathize and empathize but recommend action to get away or do what they can to change the situation, the frown deepens. When they post that they can sympathize and empathize but recommend action to get away or do what they can to change the situation and, if they don't want to do that, then accept it and move forward, the cries of "you don't understand" start. When they post that they aren't all that sympathetic with someone who chooses to stay in a situation but wants to complain about it, then the cries of "you don't understand or you haven't been there" start. If they commit several of the last sins AND dare to ask what part the person involved may have had in creating the situation they find themselves in, then the cries of "judgmental" start. Interesting how the further away from just offering tea and sympathy we get, the worse we become."

Now, it may be just me...but I believe my full quote conveys a slightly different train of thought and a slightly nicer character to me than the "quote" you attributed to me did.

As for my going back...no, it wasn't easy to end it. The difference is I didn't stretch it out for years nor did I refuse to look at the situation with a penetrating eye. Nor did I spare my actions or hers in my analysis of what was going on during that brief sojourn back. How brief? About 9 mos. I also noted on here that the main reasoning behind going back was that I felt I owed it to my children and to what we had shared/built. I'm not saying I don't have sympathy or compassion...I do. Some of these other posters have expressed that also. We've also expressed something other than sympathy and compassion. Being able to express sympathy and compassion and empathy for the situation and still hold a contrary view to the thoughts of the original poster of the situation does not mean that the person expressing those contrary views hasn't been there or doesn't understand. Yet, that seems to be the thought. That is what brought on the posts that resulted in my posting what I did above.
Have some shown no sympathy? Yep. Have some not only expressed little sympathy but offered completely contrary opinions/thoughts? Yep. Again, that doesn't mean they haven't been there OR that they have. But they're expressing their thoughts. That is what was asked for by the OP. Anyone posting to these boards should understand that even offering up a situation of their own, with or without caveats, is going to invite a response.

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 3:11:28 PM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

He can be proactive in two ways: he can say "its over babe, sorry it didn't work, and leave"

quote:

OR he can try to convince you to stay on, talk you out of leaving, remove money from your joint account (if you have one) so you can't get therapy or leave, maybe even use legal means to slow down your leaving.

And which did your husband choose? because I dont see an option of staying with the wife and allowing her to have someone else as well.

That is because my husband and I actually love each other and know this is a relationship and we worked things out.

Nice how you ignored my introduction about my comments refering to a situation where it was not going to work out.

[quot]

quote:

The passive thing would be to just listen to you, not care, and then do nothing when you get the help you need so you can make your choice and carry through on it.

ok, so now listening equates with not caring?

What about he listens, cares, allows you time to get therapy and make a decision all the while not pushing or trying to force you into doing something you dont want to do?

Again you ignore my intro about this being a situation where it doesn't work out.

quote:

What about they are in a relationship together and have to think of eachother and not individuals, therefor both trying to make it work?

quote:

1) he really does love you and he wants the best relationship possible for both of you so he'd going to move on; he has just as good a shot at finding someone who will be happy with him as you do now

He loves you, wants the best to work for the relationship but at the same times leaves you? how does that work?

News Flash!!!!

Sometimes loving someone means realizing that you cannot give them what they want and need and that in return they can't give that to you. How can someone who is so unhappy be giving their partner their best?

quote:

2) he's trying to control you or he's lashing out at you for your unhappiness -- blaming you for things not being perfect and hoping to punish

ok so now its he's taking sex away as a punishment.... how many of these situations have you seen? Because from experience in a situation like that the husband will either cheat or is most certainly not "happy" and continuing to find happiness within the relationship.

Ah, your double standard!
She complains and she's a bitch.
He complains, tries to change her mind, tried to manipulate her and he's just being true to himself?

quote:

3) he doesn't care; he really really doesn't care either because he has his own issues he isn't dealing with and he's numb or because he's stopped feeling for you and for the relationship. It happens, things change. It sucks.

Again, if he is happy within this relationship and is still thriving, how is it that he doesnt care? If he asks her not to leave because he loves her, that means he doesnt care?

How can he be happy if she isn't happy?
Aren't they in a relationship?
And if he is happy while she is not, how much does he care again?

quote:

Maybe this is why we dont mesh well on subjects, because I dont see a bit of sense in any of those arguments.... except trying to make him responsible for someone elses unhappiness.

What happened to you can not be happy within a relationship if you are unhappy with yourself? Seems to me that got blown out of the window here because the man is happy and in a relationship, so how is it his fault and his responsibility to walk out on it?

He doesn't have to walk away. He can be a jackass and stay there. He can be a bastard and try to convince her to stay cause there's only her problem and her problem isn't important at all. He can be a jerk and be so focused on himself and he doesn't give a rat's ass if she's crying. Oh, yeah, I'm not saying he has to leave her.

But if he loved her he would do a hell of a lot more than he is. If he cared about the relationship he would do a hell of a lot more than he is.

To claim repeatedly that one partner has no responsibility when the other partner is unhappy or unfulfilled is just the most bizarre thing I have heard in my entire life. Wow, that is just not the way I was taught that human beings deal with each other especially those they claim to love and make any type of committment to.

But hey, it reads to me that all you care about is the fact that he is happy and everything else is unimportant.

I don't think that is what you really mean. I saw a empathic post from you to another woman in this similiar situation not to long ago in fact. I think there is another issue going on that is helping you see only the one partner as a victim and the other as completely responsible.

They are both responsible and they are both victims (if that even replies when relationships change and break down).

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 3:18:22 PM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

......if you are in a relationship act like you are in a relationship or get out.

your statement is not any different thann "Take responsibility for your choices". They choose to be in the relationship.... Then be in the relationship and Deal with it. To your words "ACT like you are in a relationship". Or as you have stated "Get Out".

Oh yeah that's right .... you said something about some don't know how to do it and they need to Learn it!

geesh.... If they are in a relationship... where are they going to Learn to "Act like they are in the relatioship". Maybe you should give your opinion on where a person should learn how to act like they are in a relationship... since that's what you think people should do.

I think my statement is quite different. One says it all lays on the shoulders of the one person who is unhappy. My statement lays on the person who refuses to be involved in the relationship. The sad fact is that that person probably won't do anything or may even fight anything changing -- they aren't the one with the problem because they don't think they are in the relationship.

I'm not going to excuse that second person nor will I excuse the first. The first person is left to make a decision but the second helped create the situation.

As for models of how to live in a relationship...

One way would be through counseling.

Another is to look at model of successful relationships.

You could try books.

Sometimes you just have to do good old trial and error.

My guess is that many of the problems people have is that they haven't had successful models to look at. They might think that getting into a relationship means sacrificing one person to the other. They might think it means that everything will be fixed by the other person. They might think the it will all be romance and butterflies and puppies.

BULLSHIT

Relationships are work. Sometimes damned hard work and it requires both people.

If one person doesn't want to do the work or doesn't think they should do the work (for what ever reason) they shouldn't be in that relationship.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/22/2006 3:23:43 PM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 3:51:08 PM

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I think my statement is quite different. One says it all lays on the shoulders of the one person who is unhappy. My statement lays on the person who refuses to be involved in the relationship. The sad fact is that that person probably won't do anything or may even fight anything changing -- they aren't the one with the problem because they don't think they are in the relationship.

You got to be kidding... It's my fault that I don't want to have more of a relationship with some one! Even if they want to have more of a relationship with me! Your right... you statement is very different. You look to Blame on the other why the relationship is not working or going to be more, while the other seeks to accept ones responsibility to be in a relatioship as it exists!

I will take personal responsibility to be in a relationship as it exist and the responsibility to make choices that will either improve or doom the relationship. Over laying blame on another because they are not involved in a relationship that they very might not want to change in the first place.

There is nothing says that we HAVE to change for our relationships. It's choice, often people make the choice to change, accomodate, compromise, improve or whatever word you want to use. However, it's also a choice not to change or accomodate, compromise or improve on the issues that one doesn't wish to. We either accept this or we don't. Accept and be in the relationship and all the consequences... scarfices and pleasures enjoyed ... OR " we get out "

Some wish to Blame... Others Take Personal Responsibility.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

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