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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 7:17:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
Yes, however, this was your Aunt...? The OP expressed seeking insight for the same situation, which can be, I imagine as complicated as living with a drinking problem. But, it was your Aunt, and not you. Correct?
Respectfully,
Irish

I'm sorry, I didn't realize only people who have personally gotten themselves into bad marriages and felt themselves trapped by guilt for years had relevant perspectives to share.

The fact that I haven't poured sympathy for this situation has somehow led people to think I don't care and don't understand- because if I REALLY understood, then obviously I'd be giving sympathy.

We have a claim that the husband is a good man, helpless, but good.

We have a claim that the wife feels the need to stay with the helpless husband.

What's the problem? Life sucks sometimes, no doubt about it. But I'm not really sure what more can be said that will be helpful to the situation. Unless it's really just a pull to get sympathy.

This thread sounds like we've got 3-4 friends who have banded together in their common sucky situation and are somehow putting it out in public and anyone who isn't banding up with them is considered irrelevant.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 7:22:43 AM

andal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitobynight
Granted, it may be a trap I have participated in making for myself......that doesn't make it any less of a trap.
....I have chosen to stay until I can get up the courage to wreck his life. And it WILL wreck his life....make NO mistake about that.

Just to point something out. He has wrecked YOUR life, and continues to wreck yours. I know two wrongs don't make a right, but YOU now have to choose whose life to wreck - his, or continue to wreck yours to keep his life better. Since he has no problems choosing to wreck yours, YOU have to make the choice and take the responsibility. And that's tough to realize.

quote:

go to a couple of Co-dependence annonymous groups and tell us how we all DESERVE what we get because of our deficiencies. NOBODY deserves this. I KNOW I have a problem. I'm sorry that it bugs you so much that you feel you must step on those of us that suffer this problem, just a little harder.

Umm... I've been to them before. For a couple of years. I led one for 6 months.

The solution is to take responsibility for MYSELF and MY actions. Co-dependency is putting another's needs before my own to the point where I am neglecting my responsibilities to myself in favor of another person. (I won't get into the Pia Mellody definition here which I actually prefer.) The trap of co-dependency is "I make myself miserable meeting all your needs, so that you can meet my need to have someone else to blame for all my problems." The fix? Personal responsibility. Become responsible for MY OWN health and welfare, and give the other person the freedom to be responsible for theirs.

Is it easy? If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion (and I could have saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico.) But seriously, finding the strength to take personal responsibility is key here. It's not about wrecking other people's lives, it is allowing them to take responsibility for their choices and actions, as well as taking personal responsibility for our own. One of my favorite quotes from the "Wheel of Time" series by Robert Jordan is "Take what you want, and pay for it." To me, it encapsulates this concept quite nicely. If you don't like the bill, don't take the product.

*edited to add*
Oh, and do people DESERVE to be treated bad? Hell no! Deserve implies an obligation or that it is somehow just or right. T'ain't no sich thang! Take deserve out of the vocabulary. "Choose" is the correct word. That puts responsibility where it belongs - on the individual making the choice, whether it is to treat someone badly knowing the effects, or to stay in a situation someone knows is hurting them rather than leave the situation and hurt someone else that they care about. Choice and Responsibility
*end addition.*

On a lighter note here's a joke.

How many copies of a self-help book does a codependant buy?

Two. One for themselves, and one for "the person who REALLY needs it."

< Message edited by andal -- 6/21/2006 7:29:02 AM >

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 7:24:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GddssBella

mc, who pissed in your Wheaties this am? Because that sounded incredibly bitter. Love exists. I know. I'm lucky enough to have a wonderful sub. We're in love. Perhaps if you ditched the extreme cynicism, you might get lucky too.

There is nothing cynical or bitter about it. I think most psychologists and biologists etc. have agreed, that the underlying function of what we call love is really an amalgam of biologic and psychological attractions that are mutually beneficial in the aim of procreation. To accept that the term love is just a sugarcoated veneer, is just accepting what is probably the truth.

Love is just a blanket term for a whole host of mutual interactions that are going on between two people.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/21/2006 7:29:39 AM >

(in reply to GddssBella)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 7:40:00 AM

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G'morning all:

Roll your eyes all you want. Educate yourself. http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/codependency Also, do not assume people are not speaking from similar experiences simply because it disagrees with your opinion. I'm divorced. Our problem was a breakdown of communication. I solved the problem.

mc, no, I wasn't replying to the OP. I replied to you. Pay attention. Your experience doesn't not negate the existence of an emotion simply because you've had sour grapes. Nor do I believe those so-called psychologists and biologists, etc. Most of them are so straight laced and uptight, you couldn't squeeze a grape through their anus. I don't care a whit if you take my advice. I'm just pointing out that you sound bitter.

Ahh, I just love how LA sums up a situation succinctly.

andal, welcome to the boards and for expounding on the responsibility issue.

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!"

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 7:53:07 AM

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I've read this thread from beginning to end, and excuse me if I am oversimplifying but....
Isn't a relationship in which there is no sex or sexual intimacy but there is love normally called friendship? If all else has remained the same, and the only place they have suffered is in the bedroom, perhaps that is what these relationships have become, regardless of the reasons why. If the relationship has suffered all across the board to the point where there is no warmth left and no friendship to fall back on, then the best thing to do is cut your losses. Why should you both be miserable? Of course it is painful to go from "in love" to "friends" and even more so to not be anything to one another at all. Remember, should the marriage end and the friendship remain it is not a lessening of love, but a change in the way that love is expressed. Think about what you are really losing if you leave. Legally, you are losing a title, tax status, and state given rights in regards to your partner-but you are also losing liability for that person’s debts among other things. Financially, you may be losing the additional income. You may even lose your house. But the place you may feel like you are losing the most is probably emotionally. Remember, a house is not a home, and as for the rest of the legal/financial stuff, if neither of you care to lose those things, a simple power of attorney agreement will take care of nearly everything except title and tax status. Emotionally, you may be losing something dear to you, but you will also gain relief from many of the demons that plagued you. You both will have the freedom to find fulfillment for your needs and desires. There is no reason two people cannot support each other and provide friendship and comfort for each other outside of a marriage or outside of sex. Susan, I feel for you so much I can't even express it. I have watched a close friend go through the same and seen what it did to her and her relationships in the future. Care must always be taken to not fall into that same pattern and keep insecurities generated by a past relationship from ruining a present one, but then again, that is true of any relationship. As for the person this thread was originally about, I can only wish you luck and the courage to leave a bad situation or the strength to stay if you cannot leave.

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 7:54:19 AM

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Most of on here have not walked in the shoes of this or a lot of other things. Some have similar situations and can approach it from that way and some come from healthy situations and come at that way. On any message board people are going to form opinions on the facts presented. Some will be over sympathetic. Some will be too insensitive. Nature of the beast.

I have seen one way marriages, and I am sorry but the relationships described by the people on this thread are just that. The other spouse is not caring enough to give in the relationship what the other person needs. Sure there may be valid mental or physical causes but that does not make a person's unhappiness wrong or selfish. I will not play psychologist and talk about self esteem or responsability for ones actions. That has already been done.

In the end, if the person is so unhappy regardless of the cause, things will never get better by doing nothing. So some actions have to take place in order to change a situation. If this is leaving the person, giving a serious ultimatum, learning and accepting the limitations and making best of them or anything else that can make the person less unhappy then these solutions offered are very valid. Just because a person does not like one or two of them or they are offered in an unsympathetic way does not make them less valid.

The one thing though is true. Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different outcome is futile. I am truly sorry for anyone who has to go through these things, from what I have seen firsthand it is truly devastating. The only true fact that any of us can share on these boards is the person suffering is the only one who can cure their problems, unfortunately that takes some type of strong action and that is way easier said than actually done.

_____________________________

It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion, we'd be truly dead.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 7:59:52 AM

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Hey, there, Incognito and Susan and Irish's friend! I had been in a similar situation to y'alls for many, many years. I know exactly how difficult it is to see yourself as someone different, and to change what seems like the foundation of your life.

It's a terrible choice to have to make. We're trapped by the conviction that our happiness comes second, and that if we were really good people that being moral would make us happy.

And yes, we're also trapped by that dreary conviction that we're old and over the hill and undesireable. God, what can you feel but worthless when the person who knows you best, and loves you best, looks at you with distaste?

Incognito, I thought breaking up would destroy my husband. It was terrible, but he is coping. And even though I've renounced most of my obligations, I'm not a bad person. After years of caring for others, I'm having fun. And it's wonderful!

When it comes time to take the step, ask here for help. You'll have to re-learn a lot of things, and starting out single again in BDSM is twice as confusing as in vanilla. But, oh, it's worth it!

(Oh, and don't waste time arguing with LA. If she annoys you, just click that little Block button at the bottom of her post.)

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(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 8:18:04 AM

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maybe it is just me, because of life choices, and my
Cynicalness. i see nothing wrong with a marriage or any choicen life style being without sex. After a while it become boaring, and mudane, or like the old couple (whoo is saturday so we must have sex) you can be in a marriage or submissive life style, where there is not sucking, f-k, maybe just some mild fondling, or playful touch.
if this has offend anyone i am sorry, But at times people just want a stict, bdsm, non-sexual involvement.
slave jlb

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 8:44:20 AM

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Good. I hope it helps. I am not in her situation exactly but believeme - I feel her pain (to quote that one hot President guy - who was that guy anyway? hehe)...I am not joking - she has my sympathy. You are being a good friend (keep up the good work)!
-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/21/2006 8:45:01 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 8:50:30 AM

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You are so funny, MNottertail! Good to see you! - Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 8:51:44 AM

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Hope you are well, and healing nicely.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 8:58:14 AM

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Thank you, Artimis, I appreciate the kind thoughts(and to everyone else who offered them. I just haven't read all the posts, but will do so now). I think this situation might not be all that unusual. I hope the OP's friend gets out if her emotional health is being ruined (which it sounds like it well could be). Actually, at the moment, I am attracted to a Submissive Male (and I am not supposed to even be thinking about men, acc. to my 'grief counsellor') - see if you can figure that out, hehe. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/21/2006 9:23:14 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ArtimisBlack)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 8:58:32 AM

incognitobynight

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ArtimisBlack,

Thank you for your well thought out and IMHO very sensitive post. I am finding out from this thread, that there are MANY women in the position of the OP, Susan and myself. My mailbox has seen quite a few notes regarding this issue. I believe in a lot of the things many people have written here. If I loved someone and they were not happy, I would wish for them to move on to where they could be happy. I wish to be friends with my husband. I KNOW I make an excellent friend. He has already told me, it will never happen that way. I have to accept this when I leave, that I will not be able to continue the friendship part of our relationship either, and that saddens me. Losing the house, for we surely will, is a devastating blow. It was a labor of love that we both enjoyed just a few short years ago, and the house we built has our signature in every unique nook and cranny in that house. But, alas, neither one of us will be able to afford it on our own. Nevertheless, I came to terms with the loss that is inevitable last year. I said my goodbyes to the house. I can let it go.

I don't think that anyone can quite understand that in a strange way, we grieve in advance for what we know we are about to lose. I KNOW I will be happy again one day. I KNOW even if I am alone, the freedom from having to pretend will be a blessing. I know all this. I know, I know, I know.

Andal wrote: The trap of co-dependency is "I make myself miserable meeting all your needs, so that you can meet my need to have someone else to blame for all my problems." The fix? Personal responsibility. Become responsible for MY OWN health and welfare, and give the other person the freedom to be responsible for theirs. I agree with most of that. Except that I don't feel that I blame him for my problems. I feel I HAVE taken responsibility for being here in the first place and for my failure to leave yet. I agree I have not yet been responsible for my happiness yet, by leaving.

All this knowledge, for some reason, isn't enough to spur me into action TODAY!. I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I will do it eventually. I tried it once and failed. I gotta tell ya, I can't afford another failure. With the help of my therapist, we have set a goal. I am just praying that I meet that deadline.

Thanks for the insight, both of you.

(in reply to ArtimisBlack)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 9:01:15 AM

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Regardless of agreement or disagreement with the folks out here, this just reiterates the fact that nobody is truely alone in their situations, feelings or desires.

That of course, is a good thing to walk away with.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 9:02:06 AM

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Love "doesn't exist"? I'm always the last to find out these things...wow, aren't you the romantic. What're you trying to do - kill off my last little shred of hope? - Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 9:03:10 AM

incognitobynight

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Clothespingirl,

You hit a lot of nails on their proverbial heads. There is such a myriad of emotions, fears, "what ifs and shoulda coulda wouldas" that have become my constant companions and you identified a lot of them. Thanks for the input. It is greatly appreciated.

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 9:04:30 AM

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Good luck, incognito. Take care of yourelf. - Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 9:06:19 AM

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I am doing much better, thank you. Hope you are well also. - Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 9:07:04 AM

incognitobynight

Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
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By the way, clothespingirl,

Thanks for the tip about the block button. I have to say I hadn't seen it until you pointed it out. I have a bad habit of wanting to persuade people to agree with me, and I apologize to Lucky Albatross for my fit of temper. I guess you could say I'm a little "sensitive"......lol....guess I had better get over THAT!.

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 11:52:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

ok I have a question based on all of this... why is it that everyone is saying that if the husband doesnt have sex with her, that he doesnt care or doesnt love her? Sex does not = love no matter how you slice it. Perhaps the man wants her companionship? But not the responsibility of the sexual aspect. She is the one that needs to decide what she wants to do.

I spent 6 years with ( off and on ) with a man in a basically sexless relationship. I was there and he was there and there was just as much love between us as most relationships but there just wasnt sex. ( well not very often atleast) I went into that relationship totally sex driven and for a while it confused me too because I equated sex with love. I learned though that I would much rather have the man, his company, his support, than his dick.

JMO YMMV

I didn't say that not having sex = not love.

I said and still say that just saying the words "I love you" is meaningless unless your actions and attitudes match.

The woman in the OP is very unhappy and her husband is unwiling to do anything about it in any fashion because he does not care. That does not sound like love to me but it does sound like using the words "I love you" to manipulate.

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(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

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