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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 2:44:17 PM

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I appreciated your response to this situation, Crouching Tigress (I've enjoyed reading eveyone's responses, truth be told. I guess I am still "working through" my "emotional stuff" about my own situation - even if it is "over" now). I am glad for the OP's post and wish her well in trying to help her friend and admire her for caring enough to inquire on behalf of her friend's welfare.

If this woman's husband refuses to give her a divorce (although "sexual abandonment" is considered a legally valid reason for divorce in many, if not all, states in the U.S. - I know because my sister is an attorney and I inquired about this of her when I was married before my husband got sick. In my state (Nebraska) - that period was two years when I inquired. My sister wasn't all that supportive of my situation, but did let me know this. Anyway, maybe your friend should see an attorney and inquire - it might help her emotionally to know if the law is on her side, regardless of what she decides)?

If her husband is resisting a divorce (for whatever reason)...and refuses to do muchto improve the situation...And if this poor woman is at her wits end, so to speak - what, exactly, are this poor woman's options here? I certainly can understand why people "cheat" (and of course it's only "cheating" if one isn't polyamorous). - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/20/2006 3:19:31 PM >

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 5:00:04 PM

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~fast reply~

I see a dysfunctional form of D/s going on here.

She wants sex -- he refuses
She asks for an open marriage -- he rejects that idea
She tries counseling -- he won't go

So she doesn't like it and whines about it, but she still submits and consents by staying and that gives him the power. I wouldn't be optimistic about changing him after 5 years of that.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 5:12:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
(and of course it's only "cheating" if one isn't polyamorous). - Susan

People can and do cheat in polyamory.

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(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 5:19:38 PM

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I have a sneaking suspicion the husband has HIV or something like that.

Has anyone suggested that? If so, I apologize--I didn't read the whole thread.

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 6:25:09 PM

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ok I have a question based on all of this... why is it that everyone is saying that if the husband doesnt have sex with her, that he doesnt care or doesnt love her? Sex does not = love no matter how you slice it. Perhaps the man wants her companionship? But not the responsibility of the sexual aspect. She is the one that needs to decide what she wants to do.

I spent 6 years with ( off and on ) with a man in a basically sexless relationship. I was there and he was there and there was just as much love between us as most relationships but there just wasnt sex. ( well not very often atleast) I went into that relationship totally sex driven and for a while it confused me too because I equated sex with love. I learned though that I would much rather have the man, his company, his support, than his dick.

JMO YMMV

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:03:30 PM

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I guess I didn't think about that - yes, I guess they could, couldn't they? My comment was in no way a "slam" towards Poly or those who practice Poly.
I understand wanting to be, and practicing Poly. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/20/2006 7:23:02 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:10:19 PM

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That sounds like something you didn't mind, maybe even agreed to. In which case, if it works, it works. In my case, the way I was treated made me feel like a little piece of dirt: Unwanted, unloved - unloveable. It wasn't just no sex - it was feeling completely and utterly like I didn't matter to him. Like if I'd never been there at all, his life would continue, unaffected. That was what got to me - it wasn't just no sex. - Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:11:25 PM

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My marriage has been non-sexual for more than eight years because of my husband's serious medical issues. I lasted three years then I said that I either had to have a lover or a divorce. There was no third option. My husband agreed to an open marriage. It was very difficult for both of us, but it was the most loving thing that he could have done in that situation.

IMHO by refusing to make any effort to fix the problem and by not agreeing to an open marriage he is condeming her to misery. Either the misery of not having needs met, the misery of becoming a liar and a cheat, or the misery of a divorce that she doesn't really want. That isn't love, it's cruelty.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:36:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gardenbluebird

My marriage has been non-sexual for more than eight years because of my husband's serious medical issues. I lasted three years then I said that I either had to have a lover or a divorce. There was no third option. My husband agreed to an open marriage. It was very difficult for both of us, but it was the most loving thing that he could have done in that situation.

IMHO by refusing to make any effort to fix the problem and by not agreeing to an open marriage he is condeming her to misery. Either the misery of not having needs met, the misery of becoming a liar and a cheat, or the misery of a divorce that she doesn't really want. That isn't love, it's cruelty.

My Master has serious health issues too, but even though we don't often have PIV sex there is lots of affection, sexual touching, toys and intimacy. Non sexual touching is also there in abundance. I am bi and have His blessing to seek out female play partners if I wish to.

Now I couldn't be in a relationship where there was no closeness or intimacy. I was in a marriage where my husband only used to touch me when he wanted sex. There was no affection any other time and like Susan said it makes you feel used and unloved. I lived that way for many years and since I got out 4 years ago I am so much happier and fulfilled.

To the OP - If this man is not willing to compromise or seek help, then IMO she should cut her losses, she deserves to be happy and it sounds like she has given him plenty of chances. He does not love her he is being selfish.

(in reply to gardenbluebird)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:55:53 PM

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I really don't think everyone is equating sex with love ( as in..."if he loved me we'd be having sex) I think they are saying that if he loved her deeply enough he would want to make sure her needs were met, even if they could not be met by him.
For me personally, sex is very important and if someone were to approach me years into a relationship and announce that they were asexual, or...not knowing the term....just stated that they had no interest in sex and it would no longer be a part of our relationship, i think i too would offer the choices o f A) opening the relationship to satisfy my sexuality or B) leaving the relationship.
I'm a big fan of communication and compromise but one unhappy marriage was enough. I refuse to be in a relationship that cannot meet my needs. I'd rather be alone and deal with occasional lonliness than to be desperately unhappy in a relationship...unfulfilled , or in a situation that is detrimental to my self esteem.

(in reply to Rayne58)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 1:48:54 AM

incognitobynight

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Well....a friend directed me to this thread. I have been grappling with the same issue for a year, and one month. The previous 9 years, I coped with it by ignorning and lying to myself, telling myself that my husband was a terrific guy otherwise and I should be content. For the past 13 months, what I had previously been able to suppress, came back to me with a vengeance. I have not cheated yet, and I have not left yet, but both options weigh on my mind every single day, relentlessly.

Last year, when all of this finally came to a head, my husband was finally diagnosed with a disorder called Sexual Aversion Disorder (SAD), probably the same thing that Proprietrix is calling Asexual. There are apparently three types of SAD: situational (where the affected person can't "perform" with a particular person or due to particular circumstances. I suspect Elvis Pressley suffered from it with Priscilla after the birth of their daughter and they called it "the Madonna syndrome" or something like that), the second one I can't remember the name of, but it would be because of illness, pain, drugs, or some other environmental cause and effect, and the last one, which is the most hopeless one and the one my husband suffers from, is "life long" Sexual Aversion. From the outside, the world would never know he suffers from this disorder. He loves having a beautiful woman on his arm, he is quick on his feet when it comes to being witty about his "attraction" to women. Privately, he really enjoys looking at pictures of women in bondage. He is not so fond of nude women, and certainly does not enjoy looking at pictures of sexual intercourse, or of the vagina. But, and most people don't catch this, he never touches me. At all. For the first year, I got very creative and threw myself at him. Repeated rejection sort of had me developing my own "aversion".

Last year, when I finally did "wake up", I tried one last time to persuade him to seek counseling. He really WANTED to do this for me. He did go a few times (me with him one time) but he just couldn't face, I don't think, the stigma maybe or the root cause maybe, and opted to go to his general practitioner for some Viagra. Of course, none of this would have happened if I hadn't forced the situation by separating from him. Trying to give him every benefit, trying to give the marriage every chance, I worked with him AGAIN with the Viagra. We had two close encounters (that he was thrilled with) but that ..............I recognized as inidicative of the deeper problem he still does not see. First, he would not touch me with his hands, second upon entering me, the GORGEOUS erection the Viagra gave him............vanished. By this time, we had moved back in together for financial reasons and because he was going to have some pretty serious eye surgery and would need some pretty intensive recovery and care, and I as his wife seemed to be the only reasonable person to handle that.

I love my husband. No longer as a man, but as a family member. He has a big, mushy, childlike heart and the idea of pulling the rug out from under him and taking away everything that makes him happy, is difficult. Before everyone not in this situation jumps all over me and says "dump him or shut up", let me assure you, I have acknowledged that it is going to come down to him or me. But I truly understand the position the OP's friend is in. There is a lot of guilt associated with leaving someone over disatisfaction with sex, particularly if you are of the persuasion that says that people are not just disposable commodities. I KNOW what I have to do, and I try very hard not to burden my friends and family by complaining..........but I also think that you need to understand, that people like me and like SusanofO and the friend of the OP, are very similar to victims of abuse.........even though our abuser is not malicious, our self esteems and our self worth have suffered a terrible blow. I can tell you all day long that I am attractive, successful, intelligent, compassionate, but deep down inside I am cognizant of the lie I have been living, and I have internalized a message FOR YEARS that says "I am not worthy".

Yes, I go to counseling. My process is slow. I am having to learn how to be honest. I have lost sight of who I am and what I want. I have lived my life for my husband for 10 years. I bet SusanofO knows what I am talking about. I hate that I have wasted 10 years that I will never get back. I hate it. But, little by little, I am learning to not only discover who I am, but to not fall back into the trap of behaving as someone I am not, just to keep from rocking the boat. I have to remind my husband, and it is hard each and every time I do, that everything is not all right. That I am not happy. Time is running out. Truthfully, I believe time has already run out because I don't think that he could change into something he is not. For those of you who say "he has to just do it or he is going to lose you", I hope you are straight............now imagine someone said that to you about having sex with a person of your same gender. THAT is how easy it is going to be for him to change. It's the same thing.

To the OP, your friend has no good choices here. No matter which path she takes, there will be pain. She just has to decide if the pain she is to suffer will be a sharp and searing pain, but will be for a finite period of time, or does she wish to struggle with a more tolerable pain that will last her the rest of her days. I have decided, I am just trying to get up the nerve to pull that damn thorn out of my foot.

My heart goes out to you and to her.

(in reply to spankmepink11)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 3:12:01 AM

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Oh my heart aches for you. It's amazing who cannot stomach this. I finally "confessed" my situation to who I thought was a very good friend of mine - and she railed on me for "ruining" her image of "the perfect couple" (that's how well we "faked it" - for everyone else - for years). In private, he (and eventually me) were as cold as ice. He spent so much time at work that one time, in one of our rare arguments (most of the time I guess we each figured - why bother fighting) I suggested he order a bedroom set for his office, since he spent so much time there. I told him he wasn't married to me - he was married to his job. He was at work about sixty-five or seventy hours a week. He had six weeks of vacation which he never took (dammit, I wanted to go somewhere on vacation, too). Eventually, I took a cruise to the Bahamas for four days - alone.I enjoyed it though. I am the kind of person who goes to movies alone, too. I am used to being alone.

And his extensive work hours were elective - he didn't have to be there. He was an electrical engineer who designed fiber optic computer networks for a utility company (and, as anyone who works for the government can tell you, it's next to impossible to get fired - unless you shoot up heroin in front of your boss, or sexually harass someone). I was glad he enjoyed his work - but geez - what about me?

I can't pinpoint his seemingly gradual loss of interest in sex - when we were dating he was never exactly "all over me", but he was interested enough for me to know he was definitely heterosexual. Things were "fine (twice a week or so) for the first five years we were married. Then - once a month. Then once every three months (if I whined and begged and made him feel guilty). Then every six months. Then - never. It is a terrible blow to one's ego - I thought this was my fault - for years. And (damn him) he let me think that.

I finally said (after about seven years of this): "I want to have an affair but I want your okay". Amazingly, he said "No". I couldn't believe it. So I did it anyway, about six months later, with a man in a social club I belong to who was attracted to me. He was amazing looking - I couldn't believe he wanted me - he could have had anyone (think Tom Selleck with more gray hair, no lie). Plus, he was single and I was married. He liked my sense of humor, he said. I think he's probably a confirmed bachelor (he is older than me, and I am 46, and he's never been married, and he's definitely hetero, hehe). He introduced me to bdsm - I'd been wanting to try spanking and we went much further than spanking.

One counselor that I saw on my own (my husband had long since given up the idea of counseling. Acc. to him, this was not "his problem") suggested I leave. I should have done it a lot sooner is all I can say. My advice is to leave. You certainly have my blessing. Save your sanity and self-esteem. Get out now.

I really think my guardian angel sent that man to me. If it had not been for him, I think I would have gone insane.I don't know how you're doing it, really. You're amazing. I know it seems hard (hell I didn't do it. But I really would have if my husband had not gotten sick. I was at the proverbial end of my rope. There has to be someone else out there who wants you. if you even want a relationship right now (or at all). Anything is better than this.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/21/2006 3:36:46 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to incognitobynight)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 4:24:18 AM

incognitobynight

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SusanofO,

I can tell you are still going through the "recovery phase" of what happened to you. I can feel it in the anguish of your words. And I can relate. Sometimes I wish my husband and I fought a lot.
We don't, we actually get along quite well for the most part. Somehow, I think it would be easier if I had "other reasons" more "valid reasons" to justify my wanting to leave. Or maybe I am just telling myself another lie. It's sort of hard to know for certain. My husband, in no uncertain terms, will not "allow" me to have an affair. And frankly, I would prefer to not do that. I would rather leave first and not add to the guilt I already feel. A lot of people don't understand that guilt. It's guilt for what I have done to myself by allowing this to happen. It's guilt for helping to build the perfect life for him, actually enabling him to thrive under these conditions, and then 10 years into this saying......"um, ya know what.........I can't do this after all". It's guilt for not being authentic........for years. You see, it's not just that we allow ourselves to be deprived, it's the conspiracy of silence that we participate in. In my case, silence to him so as not to rock the boat, silence to my family and friends so that they not think anything is amiss. Hell, silence to myself for so many years so that I wouldn't have to take the long hard look at my own life, my relationship and to make the hard decisions that have to be made now.

I am like you SusanofO, I do some things alone. More often than not, however, I just do without. I have made myself a promise that when I do finally make the break...I WANT to be alone for a period of time. I don't want any relationships (it would be nice to get laid, but I have learned that I can't have casual male friends.........they ALWAYS, ALWAYS want more and I get sucked in where I don't want to be most times). I don't trust my judgement right now. One thing at a time, ya know? Get out! Just get out! Don't think of beyond that.....just focus on getting out.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 4:48:20 AM

theprofitprinces

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maybe he is depressed or is going through something that he might not want to discuss with his wife.maybe he just isn't attracted to her anymore :(

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 5:23:48 AM

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You know, I just have to say - I don't think he deserves much (any) sympathy. Any hetero male in his right mind must know most all women desire some form of sex - once in a while, if not frequently. The fact he's willing to deny her for this long says a lot. Like he's too selfish for words. If he had a medical (or psychological) problem he actually wanted to solve (for anybody's sake here), he'd solve it Or at least work on it). He's not doing that. What does that say? To me it says he doesn't care. And it (I believe) does take two people to make a marriage work. And one of them isn't doing any in incognito's case. Even if they "get along" - she's right - it's a big "conspiracy of silence" (I know how that goes, believe me).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/21/2006 5:49:07 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 5:47:42 AM

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Is anyone but HER preventing her from ending this unfulfilling situation? He's not abusive that we can see so there's not even this emotional trap we could empathize with. She's there, suffering, of her own free will.

Whatever he is- it's not making her happy. We could just as easily swap "doesn't have good sex with her" to "won't have a baby with her." He's made his choice, after all these years and attempts, this is how it is.

Call him a sucky person if you want to, but she's the one choosing to remain in the situation.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 5:50:25 AM

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She's actually on the verge of leaving. All she needs is a good nudge. (I really believe that). I'm trying to nudge her. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/21/2006 5:55:27 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 6:01:34 AM

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He might just want her to leave.

OK this was in my teenage years before I was honest enough to admit it to myself that I was being a jerk. If you want to finish with someone, take them for granted and give them little consideration, soon enough they will break off the relationship and I could publicly display my bewilderment and disappointment while inwardly being relieved.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 6:09:09 AM

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Maybe. If that is the case, I think she should take him up on it. I am inclined, in retrospect, to believe my husband was either a closet phychologically sadistic bastard (I never consented to what he did - except by staying, which I should not have done) - or that it was 'publically advantageous' for him to have a wife for other reasons. I threw quite a few cocktail parties for his 'business acquaintances' over the years, and kept the house clean, cooked great meals, did his laundry, bought all of the holiday gifts every year for his side of the family, etc. And for what? I think in any case, she should seriously consider leaving - and soon.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/21/2006 6:10:53 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/21/2006 6:15:58 AM

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quote:

If I can't give them what they need AND be true to myself, then no measure of love in the world will make us happy together. I refuse to betray myself and what *I* know is right for myself.

Very nicely put!! Or as Tina Turner said..."What's love got to do with it?"

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

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