quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

My question is, "Has the community overwhelmingly agreed to any lines in the sand" as you put it. If so, how do newbies access that sort of information? From what I can tell, you are saying that the answer is, "No."

The "community" can't even come up with a universally accepted defintion for words such as slave and submissive. What makes you think the "community" has a universal line in the sand on what is acceptable and what isn't between consenting adults.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

To answer your question, consider the context. In vanilla, hitting one's significant other, is illegal. In BDSM, the same actions, hold different meanings, so hitting a partner in BDSM, is pleasure ( or pain), but either way, it's consensual. In my mind, that means distinctions must be made between BDSM and vanilla. Again, that's just me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

To answer your question, consider the context. In vanilla, hitting one's significant other, is illegal. In BDSM, the same actions, hold different meanings, so hitting a partner in BDSM, is pleasure ( or pain), but either way, it's consensual. In my mind, that means distinctions must be made between BDSM and vanilla. Again, that's just me.

Even in the context of a BDSM relationship hitting can be seen as abuse.
Trust me, if a cop sees bruises and you say your "dom" gave them to you.
He's might be going to jail.

I'd heard that. Even with a contract that gives consent, I was told that the Dom/me/sadist, could still be reported by doctors or therapists, etc... and an arrest could be made, simply because of bruises. For this reason, people had to understand that it's a risky behavior.

What is acceptable and what isn't depends on the INDIVIDUALS within the relationship.
To some people hitting of any kind if a hard limit.
Regardless of it is a d/s , m/s or vanilla relationship.

You keep trying to apply these generalizations where they can't be applied.

And, that is why I continue reading and considering other people's input. Thanks, again. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

Well, I know that you both mean, "get therapy" in a mean, condescending way. I hope no one reading is afraid to seek that kind of help because you just said it in a punitive tone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

The term, "Red flags" is tossed around here and there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne
Also, on Fet, I belong to a group that deals with BDSM, sexual freedom rights, on a national level. You likely don't care for it because their guide posts do seem to be SSC or RACK.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

To turn your question around, with the elements I've just listed in place, why would a newbie not think that some sort of central agreement exists? I can tell you, without asking many people, there is no way to know (that I am aware of).

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Hi OP,

I want to respond to the bolded parts of the article you posted.

If either partner has ‘issues’ or a past of actual incest, child molestation or other
such incidents then it's no longer roleplay, nor is it a fantasy.

I disagree with this point of view.
Within role play, some people feel empowered to engage in something that mirrors a past experience.
They are with a partner who they feel safe with and (in this example) as an adult they have a level of control that they did not have when they were younger.
Some rape survivors really like rape play for similar reasons.

Actually, I sort of disagree with that point of view, as well. It was written by a BDSM therapist based on her case studies. My personal belief is the same as what you have put forth, just above this. I think that some wounds cannot be healed alone, or through discussion, or through medicines. Re-enactment, as designed by the "victim," would seem to me to be a great avenue of regaining control. Plus, if aspects of sexual pleasure were a part of the original crime, then that too, can become a part of accepting the "taboo" fantasy. I think within a trusting relationship, this could help heal a person, in a way that no other path can duplicate.

The next 4 are these:
so the play may include the Daddy ‘forcing’ the girl to perform sexual acts and then rewarding her with a
lollypop or trinket.
********************************************************************************************
teaching her about her body and teaching her how she must please a man sexually, ‘just like mummy’.
*********************************************************************************************
She likes to sit in daddy's lap and listen to him read to her whilst he puts his hand down inside her nappy.
and
Beth likes to play with her son Joe (Karen’s twin brother) and when I say play I mean Beth like to play with Joe’s boy bits

These scenarios may disturb you but you have to remember that these are consenting adults.
As I mentioned in my previous post some people find role playing in taboo areas to be "hot".
It really doesn't mean that they want to act it out with in real life.

Me personally, no, those scenarios don't disturb me because they refer to play between adults who gave consent. No harm done. It's not my thing at all, so I would be a poor match for someone with that particular set of kinks. That doesn't mean I think less of those who find peace, joy or sexual satisfaction in those ways.

That is echoed in what is said here:
Ageplay is often regarded as edgeplay, given that it reminds people of real-life incest or paedophilia, and for some enthusiasts this taboo aspect is exactly why they enjoy it.

The man you were involved with is not part of the norm.
It is likely true that some pedophiles sublimate their desires by engaging in age-play.

They are not the majority of Daddy Doms though.

For the most part pedophiles really are not interested in adults and sexual age-play should be between 2 consenting adults.
It is *just* role playing and has nothing to do with actual Daddies/daughters (or whatever permutation the roles can be).
(I said should be because your play turned into something that was non-consentual.)

I am very sorry that you had that experience and had your trust broken that way.
And it is understandable that you would wonder what the deal is

---and that^^ is what inspired the thread to begin with

after something happened that was so very wrong especially when you think you really know someone and trust that person and they reveal themselves to be very different from what they seemed to be.

Also, I think age-play often comes from a place of great vulnerability and breaches of trust can be especially hard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

Something in your tone inspires snoring.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

DesFIP...Something in your tone inspires snoring.

So now you are going to be flat out rude to folks.

Nope, not to "folks." Just towards the rude ones.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

With the addition of the perspectives described in the article in my last post, plus the perspectives of the posters here, I'm going to attempt to "fix" my OP to better reflect my questions here. Having said that, it really would help if the article was read first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

I’m feeling paralyzed by fear. I don’t even know where to turn for answers. I am hoping that TOS guidelines won’t interfere with a rational and informative discussion of this topic. I simply seek clarity.

My questions pertain to sexual age play between the edge players in DD/lg relationships - NOT about non-sexual age play in the more commonly practiced version of DD/lg relationships. This is soooo taboo, I fear any vanilla searches may come up with some path towards kiddie porn results - not something I want on my computer's history. (nor do I want to see it)

Another concern is that having this conversation in person, one on one, leaves me open to some potentially creepy responses. Plus, even posting this here, I know that there are some who will never forget that I am the one who asked. I don't like the association, but if that's what it takes...

These are my questions:

Question 1

Is a Daddy Dom a pedophile psychologically, but he behaves physically/sexually only with adults?

As is true in the BDSM community and its rainbow of fetishes, there are some fetishes which are considered, "edge play." In terms of DD/lg relationships, there are some who are edge players - which means they act out incest or pedophilia scenarios. These people are not pedophiles or molesters (although as is true of any group, some may be criminals - but that's not the kink). Even within the DD/lg, edge player group, many consider those who actually have fantasies about real minors as sick.

So, even after specifying that the question pertains to sexual age-playing Daddy Doms only, the answer is still, "No, they are not psychologically the same as pedophiles."

I believe people are sexually unique for three reasons:
1) Born that way
2) An early event linked sexuality and (fill in the blank/fetish)
3) Choice.

Question 2

So, if a guy is sexually aroused and attracted to all things youthful and he acts on it, it’s a crime and a horror. But, if that same guy channels those feelings into mutually consensual behavior with another adult, or adults, then I think we’d all want to support that “use” of those feelings, right?

"All things youthful" was my way of saying, "underage." I didn't think we could say that directly here (TOS). So, that was unclear.

The question of whether an edge player (again, as it pertains to DD/lg, sexual play and not to DD's in general), who uses the kink as an outlet for fantasies about real kids, is a good way to deal with the feelings/urges, has been met with a resounding, "NO!" The littles here have said they would run like hell at any hint of this.

I'm still not so sure about that. Is this a matter of my kink may not be your kink? If two people's needs and desires match, and they are consenting adults... where is the harm?

Well, and this is why I am not sure... perhaps the people who match in this very specific and limited respect, only match because one, or both of them, are unhealthy people with unresolved issues?

Question 3

This one has been answered. Again, with a, "No." (and that's allowing for the specifying which type of DD - a sexual age-player, edge player, only and not DD's in general.)
Daddy Doms and pedophiles “groom” the focus of their attention, using praise, gifts and a sense of dependence. But do they share these other qualities as well:

This is a list of known pedophile traits/ red flags...

-a self-image as being younger than they really are?

-inability to maintain peer relationships?

-a need for isolation, control and secrecy?

-shame, self-loathing, but with a charming façade?

- (fill in the blank with your own observations)?

Question 4

To anyone who has seen the film, “The Woodsman,” which shows how a woman accepts a pedophile’s need to express his sexuality in specific ways with her, do you agree that the Daddy Dom relationship is much like this?

Again, the general, DD label has to be revised to specify, "sexual age-player/edge player, type of Daddy Dom." No one seems to have seen the film, so this question can just die its natural death! It would likely be another, "No" response, I suspect.

Question 5

As a submissive who is also a parent, how do you handle both your own emotions, and your responsibility to protect, knowing the Daddy Dom’s preference for youth?

I think enough people said that all Daddy Doms do not have a preference for youth, so that makes the question invalid.

Question 6

As an aging human, how does it feel to be with a guy who is attracted to a look – an illusion – that will become more difficult to create with each passing day? I’m assuming that this feels good, or at least okay, but I wonder how that is achieved.

Again, this question is based on a misconception that all Daddy Doms are attracted to a youthful appearance. Enough posters have been clear that it's not about the looks to make this another irrelevant question.

Question 7

To Daddy Doms & those they partner with & with everyone in our community…

What is being done already to protect innocents from harm? (This is at the core of what frightens me… is there a difference, if so, how can we tell?)

Someone posted that EDUCATION is the way to protection. That answer makes complete sense to me.

I sincerely hope we can skip the defense of the kink… THAT is not the issue, and there is an abundance of that point of view already. Could we focus on this other concern, please?

And that ^^ is where my vocabulary failed me. I called a DD/lg relationship a kink... although that seems to vary in terms of being considered accurate, or not. I also was unable to clarify that I was referring to the DD/lg edge players - those who engage in sexual age play, only, and not asking anyone to define the more mainstream understanding of what DD/lg relationships are. In other words, no need to defend it... that's not what I am talking about.

Thank you, Everyone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady

Hi Switcheroo! : )

I'd like to question one of your comments that I high-lighted below, if you please?

There are newsworthy pedophiles that have been sports coaches, boy scout leaders, religious youth group leaders,
teachers, doctors, pastors, etc... positions that people consider "safe" around their children, and that are looked up to if not even admired.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983


Many Daddy Doms are actually well successful in personal and business life. Pedophiles tend not to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne

It's not "thought police" to inquire about what submissives' mindsets might be - at a core level. Nor is it "thought police" to inquire about what a Daddy Dom who engages in incest/molestation play's mindset might be, either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoHeartsBeatOne
Well, my answer is that it depends on more factors than you present here, so, "It might be." That's my opinion.

Here, I sought a consensus of views, specifically because one person says this and another says that.

Take the use of the term, "edge play." I also thought it meant things like breath play, blood play and maybe electrical play of extreme sorts. The article that little wonder posted gave an additional meaning for the term. The article is written by a MSW about case histories in BDSM and types of Age Play - sexual and non-sexual.

So, is your opinion that "edge play" is an incorrect term right, or is the MSW's opinion right? Or, are you both presenting personal preferences? Even considering that you both may be experts of a sort, where am I to go with that? So, for now, I think just remember that you prefer that the term be used in the way you like. Added to that thought is the fact that others have agreed with you, and not with the article's use of the term.

LilSquaw suggested using "incest play." Okay. Thank you both... that is one thing I was asking.

So, no, I don't think that my, or anyone else's opinions are fodder for a universal standard.

quote:

Keeping TOS in mind, and the reality that Daddy Doms have suffered stigma problems, even within their own ranks (maybe especially so), AND that I am seeking a way to ask questions in a way that does not offend others, is there a way you can think of to ask where the "line" is drawn in the BDSM community?

quote:

I do feel you are being patient with me. I appreciate your focus on the issues. What red flags do you think he showed me? He hardly drank at all in the beginning. I didn't know until 5 months into living together that he was lying. At that point, he was very drunk, a lot, until the day he said the 8 yr. old was hot. I kicked him out on the spot! I still cared about this guy, I just couldn't help him, or have him near me or mine. I have grandkids who come around - one, is an 8yr. old girl. So, yeah, I got shook up.

Asking these questions is my way of becoming more educated, and finding new ways to think of things. And, if you saw the post in which I answered my own OP questions, you will see that I found them to invalid at worst and not really fitting, at best.

quote:

Okay, I see what you are saying, but if you look at my conclusions, I think you'll see that I did come to see past my original questions... so much so, that I myself deemed them to be invalid. Believe me, the more I learned along the thread... the more I realized why some were offended. And, I care about that. I apologize all over the place and continue to do so. But, I'm not sorry that I had confusion. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to ask for information in a more acceptable way. I'm not perfect.

quote:

I didn't forget about the dozens of differences. I asked what they were. Some answered that question. Thank you to those who did.

***I*** did not call anyone a sick pervert, but other posters did. I am very much a "Do as you will but harm none" kind of person. I think it is okay if a psychological pedophile uses a Daddy Dom "incest/molestation" play relationship to express sexuality among other adults. What harm in that? Well, some littles said, "No way!" They think that would be sick. Others here agree with me that there is no harm in it at all.

quote:

I think that type of role play between consenting adults is fine, acceptable and perhaps even wondrous, as I stated previously in this thread. The part I am not sure about is if my having that view of things is out of the range of what is considered to be "a normal part" of BDSM. I'm checking my own judgment against the consensus of others. I asked local friends and there is no consensus there. So, I asked here.

quote:

There is a difference between my general view of what others do and what I now know is not good for me to do. In other words, I may still eventually seek a Daddy Dom, but I know to avoid any who have a penchant for incest/molestation play. That is not because I think it is wrong in any way. That's because it's not right for me, specifically.

quote:

No, I didn't know. I've heard people use SSC and RACK interchangeably.

quote:

And that is where I was floundering. Who and what to believe in terms of what is "normal BDSM" and what is not.

quote:

I was not aware of those terms until this thread. And, yes, I have read more than one BDSM glossary, in which edge play and role play are included, but not incest or molestation play. Thank you!

quote:

I wasn't thinking it was how it is universally, but I was open to that possibility. By post #12, I realized I had to qualify and change, Daddy Doms to Daddy Doms who engage in sexual age play, that evolved to edge play which has now evolved to incest/molestation play. And, very recently, LilSquaw said that incest/molestation play happens outside of DD relationships, too. I'd never heard that before, but okay, good to know.

I began the thread with "I am paralyzed by fear." Now, I'm not. Speaking up and asking the questions, however poorly worded, helped dispel the fear. Thank you everyone for that!

quote:

This thread shows my attempt to NOT paint everyone with the same brush. And, it worked.

quote:

I am drawing my own lines, for me. My question is, "Has the community overwhelmingly agreed to any lines in the sand" as you put it. If so, how do newbies access that sort of information? From what I can tell, you are saying that the answer is, "No."

quote:

Okay, perhaps reading the Age Play book you suggested will help me see the difference. I know many people here have said that incest/molestation play is not about the fantasy of sexualizing children, AND I BELIEVE THEM, but I still don't really understand how that is true. I just figure I have to search some more and I will understand. In other words, I'm allowing the "many" to guide my thinking, so far as I can with the knowledge I have up to this point. I'm fine with being wrong. It's not the first time and it won't be the last time. I don't beat myself up for being wrong. I honor my effort and yes, my open mind.

quote:

I don't think I've said anything global. There is a difference between asking a question and drawing a conclusion. If you, or others, check my conclusion post, you will see that I think my original questions were either invalid, or simply don't fit. Somewhere along the line here, that evolution in response to posters' educating me, seems to have been missed. Even if my logic failed initially... which I don't see how questions meant to explore a topic is a measure of logic, it would seem to me that posters were successful in helping me find a more logical way of considering the topic.

I truly am very grateful for that.

And, to you, specifically for taking the time to help me with this.