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Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 9:14:03 AM   
AislynLass


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I began writing this question in response to Oside's and Stef's responses in another thread, but as I didn't want to hijack the OP's thread, I decided to ask the question in my own thread.

In the context of WIIWD, isn't it accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery? That in this context a slave chooses her Master or he chooses his Mistress and not involuntary servitude as referred to in the link that Stef posted?

For those who consider themselves slaves, why do you apply that term to yourself when you do have the right to leave as opposed to a slave in the more literal sense of the term who does not? Whether or not you would exercise that right or feel that you could exercise that right (due to internal enslavement) is not the point for the sake of this discussion.

Thank you to everyone in advance for their opinions as this is a question I've been pondering. I do understand that ultimately it will come down to what everyone is most comfortable in using with reference to themselves and their individual relationship, but I am curious as to the way of thinking for those who self-identify as a slave.


< Message edited by AislynLass -- 2/18/2013 9:16:50 AM >


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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 9:19:12 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass



In the context of WIIWD, isn't it accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery?


Yup, but I believe that "consensual slavery" is an oxymoron and isn't really slavery.


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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 10:00:25 AM   
AislynLass


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Yes, I totally understand that perspective. This is why I hope others will share their perspectives on self-identifying as a slave.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 10:14:47 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass



In the context of WIIWD, isn't it accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery?


Yup, but I believe that "consensual slavery" is an oxymoron and isn't really slavery.


Whilst it is an oxymoron, surely, in most cases, it is actually "consensual"?

In the strictest terms, most 'slaves' can just up and walk out - if they so choose to do so.
Whether they feel like they should, or ought to, is another ball game entirely.
The physical possibility is (in most cases) always there.

Many slaves in the BDSM world feel like it's where they belong and therefore have no ambitions or desire to leave the dynamic because that is their chosen lifestyle path with their chosen partner(s).
That is also why any 'contract' really isn't worth the paper it's written on - but it is very important to those involved in the dynamic because it means something to all involved within it.

That, to me, is entirely different to a situation where you are kept against your will, with no way out.
And also why non-consensual slavery is actually illegal in most countries.


So, in answer to OP's question, I would say that it is "consensual slavery" and each dynamic will apply that to varying degrees depending on what the setup is - each and every one will be different.


Just my

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 10:35:51 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Yup, but I believe that "consensual slavery" is an oxymoron and isn't really slavery.

That's very closed minded and ignorant thinking. So I've heard.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 10:47:33 AM   
ResidentSadist


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I believe slave defines the relationship roll, context of the relationship and extent of the power exchange.

More on this topic here: internal enslavement

Also, you have to compare apples to apples. When talking about slavery, you need a time reference. Often I hear the argument that consensual slavery if a fantasy because "you don't kill consensual slaves" if you are displeased. There was difference between slavery in the Roman Empire and modern American. It was a crime in the American South to kill or maim a slave, except in self-defense.

I do not disagree, "consensual slavery" isn't real slavery and I do not have a receipt for my property. The state will not help me retrieve her nor condone her punishment if she runs away. I have a receipt for my pets, if they run, they will be returned. They are my "real" slaves so to speak.

However, the boundaries of my M/s relationship are defined so closely to her being my real property, the term is a best fit to describe what she is to me. We aren't talking about a house slave or field hand, we are talking about a relationship, a sexual relationship. To measure or compare the reality of it, you would have to hold it up against the same type of relationship with a real favored slave and her Master.

I have seen the same reality arguments about whipping as punishment. Unlike a "scene" between a sadist and masochist, punishment in a M/s isn't supposed to feel good. To the slave it really feels very awful.

It's all a matter of perception and I can see the dichotomy of it clearly. I have to agree with both sides in that it isn't real because you don't get a receipt of any kind (unless you marry her), but it feels real. You live by the boundaries as if a receipt did exist. It is your lifestyle, hence you "really" are a lifestyle slave. I believe that desire for a receipt to validate it is what drives such high interest in modern consensual slave contracts.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 2/18/2013 10:48:26 AM >


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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 10:50:25 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass



In the context of WIIWD, isn't it accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery?


Yup, but I believe that "consensual slavery" is an oxymoron and isn't really slavery.



Same here.

The only scenario I've been able to conjure up, that to me could be considered "slavery", is if a person develops an emotional or mental tie to another person that is so strong, that they would be unable to leave that person, no matter what.

That opens up even more questions....

Lastly-- nice font, OP.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 12:33:13 PM   
littlewonder


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I am a slave because I do believe there is a difference between sub and slave.

To me a sub has choices. A slave does not except the choice to leave and even that isn't always technically true. If you read my response in that thread, Master and I are M/s. I am his slave. I don't have choices. I don't get to say "yes" or "no". I simply obey. If I don't then I am disciplined. Can I just walk away? Yes I could. Would he hunt me down? Most likely. He's not just gonna let go of something we have worked hard at for the past 7 years.



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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 1:49:42 PM   
Missokyst


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I will say that my tie was mental. Of course he imposed the slave status upon me shortly after we married, which had no real meaning to me other than how he defined it. I know I had no say. I know I wasn't going to leave. My commitment was a mental bond, a promise to myself to be loyal no matter what. I don't think most people have that switch inside them.

Mine has kept me loyal long after things end. Even in mundane things such as employment, once I make that switch it is difficult to stop that loyalty. For instance I was a retail slave who remained loyal to my company for 7 yrs after I had moved on. I sang their praises, I kept shopping there, I promoted them even though I have a life time injury that will always plague me, at their hands. They never paid, I got about 2 weeks of physical therapy where I was taught to move differently and given drugs to deal with the pain (I still do not take them). And yet I remained loyal. It was not until I started to see a family member being worked as hard and viewing her injuries that I began to see this corporation as evil, and my tie to them is now busted. But it took looking at it through someone else's pain to get here.

People who have that switch inside them are not the norm. I doubt anyone could relate unless they have been there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

The only scenario I've been able to conjure up, that to me could be considered "slavery", is if a person develops an emotional or mental tie to another person that is so strong, that they would be unable to leave that person, no matter what.




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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 5:33:54 PM   
Master2811


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass



In the context of WIIWD, isn't it accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery?


Yup, but I believe that "consensual slavery" is an oxymoron and isn't really slavery.


Even stronger, has nothing to do with slavery. And as an addition many profiles on the internet show kink "addictions" rather than a submissive nature or slave nature and on the other side of the stick dominant nature or Master nature. "Slaves" who demand to be gangbanged for example.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 6:23:55 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I am a slave because I do believe there is a difference between sub and slave.

To me a sub has choices. A slave does not except the choice to leave and even that isn't always technically true. If you read my response in that thread, Master and I are M/s. I am his slave. I don't have choices. I don't get to say "yes" or "no". I simply obey. If I don't then I am disciplined. Can I just walk away? Yes I could. Would he hunt me down? Most likely. He's not just gonna let go of something we have worked hard at for the past 7 years.




I've read this before, possibly written by you, and I have to say I still don't understand the concept of a submissive having choices. How is a submissive being submissive if she (or he) is choosing what to be submissive about?

I don't identify as a slave because I see it the same way OsideGirl does. But I also can't imagine saying "No" to him. ...oh,...wait. Correction. I can't imagine saying "No" to him without ramification.

Personally, I think it's the other end of the spectrum that needs more clarification. Can a submissive say "No?"

No.

(LOL - see what I did?) But, yes, in my opinion, I don't believe someone who claims to be submissive can then choose when that submission applies. Which is why I don't see a difference between the two.




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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 8:02:57 PM   
njlauren


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I think this falls under the category quite honestly of what BD/SM in general means to me, and that is it is inherently self defined. We can argue that slavery in the context of M/s isn't 'real' because in real life context, slaves were owned property who had no rights at all, who didn't enter into it consensually, who had no say in how they are treated, and if you use that definition then yes, it isn't 'real'. But words have context, and there is nothing oxymoronic about 'consensual slavery', since consensual is defining the nature of the slavery, that someone is willingly binding themselves to another person as their slave.

Even in the BD/SM world there is quibbling about slavery, that okay, slavery exists, but unless the M sets the whole thing and has total power, including in theory to right to really hurt or maim their 'property', where the slave has no rights, it isn't real...the whole point is as real as this is to people into M/s relationships, it is all fantasy in that legally there is nothing binding, the only thing that binds the people is in their imagination and hearts, and therefore whatever they define to me is real, no matter how heavy or light it is. In reality slavery in the 'real' world was never all the same, slaves in some societies were full members of the household and had a lot of rights, others had very little, and in some cases you could argue that other then the fact that they enter into it of their own will with no legal binding, many of the 'lighter' M/s relationships were not all that much different then slavery in some 'real' situations.

Then we come to the difference between submissive and slave..and my answer is, that really depends on how the person sees themselves in my experience. I have met people with a D/s that was pretty strict and in everything but name was an M/s, I have seen M/s relationships that were pretty light....the difference is in the hearts of the participants IMO, if they and their M feel like they have an M/s, they do, if they feel like it is D/s, it is. Trying to put definitive labels on something that is by its very nature so nebulous is a fool's errand:)

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 8:22:15 PM   
littlewonder


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Let me see if I can clear up a little confusion. I doubt anything I say though will help but what the hell....

Those who call themselves subs has always been from my experience, those who go into a relationship with a Dom and saying "ok, you can do this to me but you can't do that to me." If he says he wants to pierce, for example, your nose so you can wear a bull ring, but you don't like them because you think they are ugly or you don't like piercings or you're afraid others will have something to say about it, you can tell him that and the relationship will continue on just the way it has been going. He's not going to discipline you for it. He's not going to end your relationship. He'll just say "ok, we won't do that then".

Whereas a slave, for all intents and purpose, me being His slave, if I find it ugly, or I just don't want one or I'm afraid someone might say something about it or it could even possibly cause problems in my workplace, family, etc...., it doesn't matter. He's going to do it anyway. If I say no then the relationship will change. Most likely it will end. He doesn't want someone around that is going to pick and choose no matter what it is. He wants a "yes Sir", no matter how horrific I may find the thought.

Anyway, that's the way it was always understood when I first started out but like I said, I understand, times are changing. It's no longer seen in the same light and it's something I will have to contend with. I am the one who will have to adjust or die out like the dinosaurs.


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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 8:42:33 PM   
FinDommeXtina


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Good thread and awesome opinions. I like the fact the difference between sub and slave was brought up. Don't we do this all of the time in any relationship? Say the dominant of a vanilla relationship says hey, we are going to sell our car and buy a new one that I like. What if the submissive role didn't want to? Would he or she just up and leave the relationship? It sounds like submissive is more or less equivalent to dating, whereas slavery is like marriage. Does anyone else get what I am trying to say? lol

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 9:22:07 PM   
MissSkyee


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You can't change the meaning of words ...slave means "non-consensual".

People trying to make bdsm metaphors literally true are banging their heads against a wall.

If you have agreed to be someone's slave you are not an actual slave by societies definition but just happen to enjoy living as a slave would. All the subjugation in the world can't change this fact. You like the label and the lifestyle ...good for you, but don't make it more than it is.

Actual slavery is still pretty widespread in certain parts of the worldand is abhorrent and not all that erotic to the enslaved from what they are saying at the Human Rights commission.
"Today, while there are numerous legal and academic definitions of slavery, the most important thing is to focus on the lived experiences of slaves. When a situation of extreme exploitation is examined, it is important to ask: "Can this person walk away? Are they under violent control?"
Here's a link to where the quote is from ...
http://www.endslaverynow.com/?goto=defining_slavery§ion=resources&gclid=CMOo7KzPwbUCFUsdpQodHm8AbQ

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 9:58:13 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Let me see if I can clear up a little confusion. I doubt anything I say though will help but what the hell....

Those who call themselves subs has always been from my experience, those who go into a relationship with a Dom and saying "ok, you can do this to me but you can't do that to me." If he says he wants to pierce, for example, your nose so you can wear a bull ring, but you don't like them because you think they are ugly or you don't like piercings or you're afraid others will have something to say about it, you can tell him that and the relationship will continue on just the way it has been going. He's not going to discipline you for it. He's not going to end your relationship. He'll just say "ok, we won't do that then".

Whereas a slave, for all intents and purpose, me being His slave, if I find it ugly, or I just don't want one or I'm afraid someone might say something about it or it could even possibly cause problems in my workplace, family, etc...., it doesn't matter. He's going to do it anyway. If I say no then the relationship will change. Most likely it will end. He doesn't want someone around that is going to pick and choose no matter what it is. He wants a "yes Sir", no matter how horrific I may find the thought.

Anyway, that's the way it was always understood when I first started out but like I said, I understand, times are changing. It's no longer seen in the same light and it's something I will have to contend with. I am the one who will have to adjust or die out like the dinosaurs.



Why do you have to adjust, you are living by defining your own life, your own rules, you have chosen to live the way you do, given your M that kind of power, and that is your right *shrug*. I never quite understood in the BD/SM community the idea that there needs to be homogeneity or 'common rules' or 'the right way to do things', part of the allure of all this is that it is supposed to be being able to live as you wish and do what you wish in the way that floats your boat.....we don't need to recreate the Catholic Church with some sort of kinky curia deciding what was true or not. Reminds me when I belonged to an S/M group and found them arguing in meetings over points of order, please *gag*.

Be yourself, be proud, and screw those who don't like your way of doing things.....:)

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/18/2013 11:40:39 PM   
myotherself


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder



Anyway, that's the way it was always understood when I first started out but like I said, I understand, times are changing. It's no longer seen in the same light and it's something I will have to contend with. I am the one who will have to adjust or die out like the dinosaurs.



I absolutely disagree. I don't see WHY you need to adjust or die out just because others have changed the way they view things. I see my relationship with Master being along very similar lines to yours with Kana. The word 'no' is only in my vocabulary with him when he orders me to say it. End of.

He and I will call ourselves M/s until the day we die. I refuse to get into the semantics of Internal Enslavement (which is what we have) compared to 'real' slavery because I think there's a lot of people who just flat out refuse to even think about it, never mind try to see it from another person's POV.

We have what we have, and what we have is M/s. In our local community this is accepted and embraced as simply being another place-setting on the spectrum of WIITWD. These opinions of these real-life, living and breathing humans are the ones that matter, not the opinions of pixels on screens.

Beyond that - I couldn't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut what anyone thinks. And if it becomes too contentious and irritating to be able to discuss my dynamic here on the boards, then I'll go somewhere else where difference is not only accepted, it's embraced.

Just my

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/19/2013 1:05:13 AM   
theSwan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

For those who consider themselves slaves, why do you apply that term to yourself when you do have the right to leave as opposed to a slave in the more literal sense of the term who does not? Whether or not you would exercise that right or feel that you could exercise that right (due to internal enslavement) is not the point for the sake of this discussion.



Everyone has the right to leave every situation.
And every situation has a cost to leave.

Whether someone would or could exercise the right to leave can be the only true point of this discussion.
Because all slavery is internal.
A slave whom is purchased or abducted is not held captive by chains or guns.
They are held captive by their desire to live.

There are some real differences between 'internal enslavement' and 'external enslavement' (as they are so inappropriately named)
One is that 'voluntary slaves' are often in agreement with their required actions.

Imagine a boy who loves building sandcastles more than anything.
Who is abducted and required to spend twelve hours a day of his life... Building sandcastles.
Or else he would be shot.
Imagine being required to sample ice cream all day or go for joy rides in vehicles.
Whether you feel like it that day or not.

It seems far less terrible when the actions of your captor are in-line with your personal desires.
This is a notable difference between 'internal' and 'external' enslavement.

The other major difference is the concept that no one will kill a 'voluntary' slave if they depart from their service.
To suggest that death is the only great captor of man is to suggest there is nothing greater to live for than life.
That the statement of 'Or else I will kill you' is the only loss that can hold people
I know of things that would hold me to greater mercy than a threat on my life.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/19/2013 1:10:24 AM   
theSwan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSkyee

You can't change the meaning of words ...slave means "non-consensual".


Actually, 'slave' means 'a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another'. Or 'a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person'. None of that has anything to do with consent.

Consensual slavery goes as far back as Greek and Roman eras, when people were electing to sell themselves into slavery in order to become citizens. To say that slavery can only exist in this one singular formula - People being abducted or purchased and then put to work against their wills, is to ignore both history and the dictionary.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/19/2013 3:25:51 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder



Anyway, that's the way it was always understood when I first started out but like I said, I understand, times are changing. It's no longer seen in the same light and it's something I will have to contend with. I am the one who will have to adjust or die out like the dinosaurs.



As lauren and the bunny said, fuck adjusting. You be what you are. Words matter, but your life, your experiences, your loves, and your joy, they matter too, and imo, they matter more.

< Message edited by Level -- 2/19/2013 3:26:37 AM >


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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