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RE: home birth in chains - 4/15/2013 8:41:48 PM

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That's great but not all children are so well behaved. Some children are way too curious for their own good, are hyper, who like to get into things, no matter how well you may teach them to not do such things or tell them not to do it. Not all kids react in those ways.

I could tell my daughter "no" till I was blue in the face. I could teach her not to run out into the road after the ball as it went flying into the street while I was hanging laundry out to dry and turned my back for a milisecond.

guess what? I still had to make that mad dash to keep her from getting run over or from getting electrocuted. If someone wishes to think I was a bad parent or I didn't teach my child anything, so be it. If I had been wearing chains, no matter how loose, no matter how light, I still would not have been able to reach her in time. How many times has someone tripped over a piece of thin string that was loose on the ground?

eehh...maybe it's just me being a klutz.

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RE: home birth in chains - 4/15/2013 9:49:23 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: desertratmike

I cant think of one parent upon the face of this earth who has NEVER had to react quickly to something their children have gotten themselves into, it is a fact that kids do things at the most in-opportune time (usually as soon as you turn your back) that's just what they do.

Just think of my parents, then. They never had to. I'm serious.

quote:

They have no idea of the consequences of the actions they do, until it is to late, it's just the way it is.

That's the problem right there. Fix it, and the other one will usually go away.

quote:

Also i do not think wheel chair bound or otherwise handicapped parents are in any way, shape or form " bad parents", there are many kind, caring and loving parents regardless of physical capability, relationship status or whatever out there and as long as they are doing the job right and the child grows up to be a productive member of society then all I have to say is" Job well done!"

Are you then saying the're just worse, or that it's not really all that bad to have restricted movement ability?

quote:

One of the main items that i believe occurring throughout this thread, is the fact that children should not be exposed to the lifestyle choice that we as adults make, they do not have the knowledge or understanding that it is something that adults choose to do.

Let me get this straight... circumcising them is fine, but wearing chains during delivery is not?

Sheesh. Ease up. Kids aren't as easy to traumatize as adults.

They've no idea WIITWD is wrong...

... why're we doing it, btw?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to desertratmike)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/15/2013 10:33:48 PM

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quote:

Let me get this straight... circumcising them is fine, but wearing chains during delivery is not?

thats a good point.

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RE: home birth in chains - 4/15/2013 10:35:33 PM

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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

Also i do not think wheel chair bound or otherwise handicapped parents are in any way, shape or form " bad parents", there are many kind, caring and loving parents regardless of physical capability, relationship status or whatever out there and as long as they are doing the job right and the child grows up to be a productive member of society then all I have to say is" Job well done!"

Are you then saying the're just worse, or that it's not really all that bad to have restricted movement ability?

Actually, a parent in a wheelchair or with other mobility issues has challenges that they can't help. Do you think any of them wouldn't love to run and play with their child? This is a situation where a person is making a choice to potentially put their child in harm's way, and reap the consequences of those actions.

quote:

quote:

One of the main items that i believe occurring throughout this thread, is the fact that children should not be exposed to the lifestyle choice that we as adults make, they do not have the knowledge or understanding that it is something that adults choose to do.

Let me get this straight... circumcising them is fine, but wearing chains during delivery is not?

Sheesh. Ease up. Kids aren't as easy to traumatize as adults.

They've no idea WIITWD is wrong...

... why're we doing it, btw?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

So we should let them watch as we have sex as well, huh? I mean they don't know what it is we are doing, so where is the harm?

I have a two year old granddaughter, and trust me, she doesn't miss a thing. Not an action, not a word.

It is often a mistaken concept of the childless to believe that small children are unaware of adult behavior, yet every study shows just how false that can be, as evidenced by the therapy some need from seeing the stupid shit the adults in their life did in front of them.

The bottom line is that if you wouldn't think it was ok to involve strangers in a public place in your kink because they have not consented, there is NO logic to involving your children, even if it is just letting them see it. They didn't and can't consent.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 4/15/2013 10:36:43 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/15/2013 11:27:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

So we should let them watch as we have sex as well, huh? I mean they don't know what it is we are doing, so where is the harm?

It is often a mistaken concept of the childless to believe that small children are unaware of adult behavior, yet every study shows just how false that can be, as evidenced by the therapy some need from seeing the stupid shit the adults in their life did in front of them.

Jesus Christ, I never thought about that!

We better hurry and start a fundraiser to send some shrinks to the rainforest!

Won't somebody please think of the children!

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/15/2013 11:30:13 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Actually, a parent in a wheelchair or with other mobility issues has challenges that they can't help.

So, worse, but still good enough, right?

Which makes me wonder why someone else going for good enough is so bad.

And, incidentally, what kind of a racer kid are people expecting that the mother needs to be able to run around right after delivering it?

quote:

So we should let them watch as we have sex as well, huh?

~shrug~

That's between you and local laws. Near as I can tell, it used to be the norm up to about 60 years ago in rural areas here. Doesn't seem to have turned out any real problems, nor have I found anything to support non-secondary trauma from it, so yeah, whatever works for you. If you have some research to support that there's a problem with primary trauma, I'm absolutely all ears.

What am I gonna do, invade the Amazon to prevent them from churning out kids in one room houses with no childcare? Or will it suffice to dispatch a batallion worth of shrinks and social workers to sort out the poor little things? Is that going to fix their lives? I mean, if it's a big deal, surely it's also a major factor in the ills that face them.

No, I wouldn't want any kids around, cuz it'd kill my mood, and others might traumatize 'em for it later.

quote:

I mean they don't know what it is we are doing, so where is the harm?

You completely missed my point, from A to Z, which is getting to be a trend.

I was pointing out that there's nothing wrong with WIITWD, as far as I can tell. That, unless we believe there's nothing wrong with it, then we shouldn't be doing it. That, if it's appropriate behavior for us to engage in, then it's something that should be treated the same as anything else. Which is to say, it's not something to hide, unless it's something shameful. I don't know about you, but I don't do anything shameful if I can avoid it.

quote:

It is often a mistaken concept of the childless to believe that small children are unaware of adult behavior, yet every study shows just how false that can be, as evidenced by the therapy some need from seeing the stupid shit the adults in their life did in front of them.

Glad I didn't make that mistake, then. Would hate to repeat an oft-made one.

Incidentally, the therapy is usually about the secondary trauma, and it seems to be more of an issue where you live than where I do. I doubt our kids are any more robust than yours, so that leaves culture, which points a finger in the general direction of secondary trauma, which- lo and behold- is borne out in the research.

quote:

The bottom line is that if you wouldn't think it was ok to involve strangers in a public place in your kink because they have not consented, there is NO logic to involving your children, even if it is just letting them see it. They didn't and can't consent.

I never involve anyone in my kink, except my partner(s).

I live my life, same as anyone else, display affection in public, maintain our usual dynamic in public, etc., and generally behave like the rest of the place does, with a few idiosyncracies. I've no problem adapting to requests from others, and I expect people to let me know if something bothers them, which most people here are quite happy to do. It's not like I'm whipping anyone in the streets. Most I'm inclined to do is simple stuff like a foot-kiss or whatever. Things that nobody cares about.

As for the birth, I'm fairly certain the kid won't remember something that happened in its first seconds of life.

This is giving me flashbacks to dealing with American tourists wanting us to cover up nude statues etc.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/15/2013 11:31:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I could tell my daughter "no" till I was blue in the face. I could teach her not to run out into the road after the ball as it went flying into the street while I was hanging laundry out to dry and turned my back for a milisecond.

Why was she playing with a ball anywhere near traffic if she didn't understood the danger?

Why were you turning your back for a second when she was playing with a ball near traffic if she didn't understand the danger?

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/16/2013 6:52:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I could tell my daughter "no" till I was blue in the face. I could teach her not to run out into the road after the ball as it went flying into the street while I was hanging laundry out to dry and turned my back for a milisecond.

Why was she playing with a ball anywhere near traffic if she didn't understood the danger?

Why were you turning your back for a second when she was playing with a ball near traffic if she didn't understand the danger?

Hmm... That's the sort of thing someone with no clue about childrearing might say.

But I'm sure you're simply a lot better at parenting than the likes of littlewonder or I.

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(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/16/2013 11:00:39 AM

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Oh, yea, that militaristic child rearing makes very well balanced children.

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/16/2013 11:16:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

That's great but not all children are so well behaved. Some children are way too curious for their own good, are hyper, who like to get into things, no matter how well you may teach them to not do such things or tell them not to do it. Not all kids react in those ways.

I remember I was 5 years old. My mother was putting away laundry in her bedroom, I was with her, I saw something on the tall bureau that I wanted and decided that I could use the bed as a launching to point to be able to reach it. Before she could even react, I bounced and leapt....and took out two teeth when I smacked into the bureau. (I was a pretty fearless child)

Even the best mothers are not omnipotent.

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(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/16/2013 11:18:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I could tell my daughter "no" till I was blue in the face. I could teach her not to run out into the road after the ball as it went flying into the street while I was hanging laundry out to dry and turned my back for a milisecond.

Why was she playing with a ball anywhere near traffic if she didn't understood the danger?

Why were you turning your back for a second when she was playing with a ball near traffic if she didn't understand the danger?

Hmm... That's the sort of thing someone with no clue about childrearing might say.

Perhaps that's true. I'm certainly not going to say that I'm better at childrearing than she is. I'm merely trying to do what's best and it may very well be that I miserable fail at that.

However, from there, it should be clear that these are genuine questions. I'm not trying to mock her as much as I really do not understand. I would never do that, and I'm genuinely confused as to why anybody else would.

If she... or you apparently... don't mind, I would appreciate it being explained.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/16/2013 7:31:48 PM

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Well obviously, Oside's mother should not have turned her back for a second either. Bad mom, Oside! Bad mom!

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RE: home birth in chains - 4/16/2013 9:35:10 PM

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I don't see the comparison between the two... but ok... sure.

To me there is a difference between kids over-extending their physical capabilities while playing and then falling, and knowingly putting your kids in a potentially dangerous situation with them oblivious of the risk and taking your eyes of them.

The first happens all the time, with all kids, and there isn't really a thing you can do to prevent it. They need to learn by falling.

The second is a situation that can easily be avoided by not putting your kids in situations like that, unless you know they understand the danger.

Apples and oranges.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 4/16/2013 9:36:30 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: home birth in chains - 4/17/2013 5:52:00 PM

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Ok, so living near a road with a gated yard, turning for one second and then seeing your 5 year old daughter running into the street is somehow different.

Ok then.

There is no such thing as keeping a kid out of a danger. They will ALWAYS find a way despite how much you watch them.

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RE: home birth in chains - 4/17/2013 6:09:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

I wouldnt do it. But thats just me.

(I think it's a smidge 75 degree's off of fucked up).

(in reply to Toppingfrmbottom)

RE: home birth in chains - 5/2/2013 12:30:43 PM

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What an interesting thread...the psychology alone makes it worth the read. One could quite literally amass studies from the responses alone :)

I find it extremely interesting that UllrsIshtar's sharing of a home birth that included several bare-bottom spankings (in hospital, no less) was pretty natural (to the medical staff) and that she felt that had she thought of bondage(chaining), that would have been quite acceptable. Nudity in Europe is viewed differently as well, as is evidenced by the public displays on the beaches, whereas here in Canada, it's absolutely illegal and many would view it as 'harmful' to the innocence of children. Different societies, different perceptions.

I believe strongly in the innocence of children. I believe in snuggles and story-time, in singing children's songs, homemade play-dough, silly children's jokes and in allowing children to truly be children. I believe that while children are extremely adaptable, accepting and loving that visuals can affect them adversely and create stressful questions and concerns; it is there that I return to the innocence of a child, and how that needs to be protected. I also know that word "innocence" to be understood differently from person to person. To some that means that they come to understand 'natural' dynamics between people and they grow up not knowing differently. I believe people differ on where that line needs to be drawn that actually triggers trauma for a child.

My children grew up knowing that I wasn't the boss, except by proxy (so to speak). At times in their lives we lived in a society that is known to be extremely male-dominated and they came to know that as a natural way of living - not only in our home, but in society itself. Does that make them traumatized? It does, in some circles. I tend to look to their overall well-being, are they happy, are they confident, are they funloving, do they have healthy relationships, friendships, are they self-aware, honest, productive? I can answer 'yes' to all of those, which I personally think is amazing considering I was their mother lol, and I'm very thankful. To me this indicates that whatever they saw, whatever they learned, didn't detract from the innocence they needed to have as children, that allowed them to grow into adulthood in such a way that they retained choices of how to live their own lives - despite how they saw me living mine.

I believe that it is a parent's right to raise one's children according to their own values. If you wish to raise your children understanding the fundamentals of your BDSM relationship, I believe you will be allowed to do that, despite the vigors of Child Protection. The psychological effects are most likely, unknown. Could be extremely positive, in that the child grows up in such a loving home that he/she simply accepts what he/she sees, embraces it, and lives happily from that point onward, into adulthood. Or, it could be traumatizing (although I doubt this, due to the loving home part, personally). My thoughts go to the innocence of the child, and if that innocence is protected, and how. At the very least, it's an interesting concept and one I'd be keen to do research on, personally.

As for wearing chains in a home birth? Common sense prevails. or it should.
My mother (wise, wise woman) once told me "would you ever forgive yourself" is a good question to ask, when it comes to your child and an issue of uncertainty.

My answer in this case becomes a resounding "no", because I'd never forgive myself if anything went wrong. Nothing would be worth ANY possibility of my child's safety - including my own comfort.

I don't think it's some slavey-competition to prove the OP's wife's submission that she wear chains; from what I understand from the postings it's about doing something she often does anyways, that brings comfort, security, and enforces a dynamic that she draws from in a positive way.

I can appreciate where the OP/his wife are coming from, and while some here may be swift to pass judgement, I appreciate the sharing and the care going into the upcoming birth of their child. To me, that one is searching for answers, takes the time to speak to a midwife and is open to other's opinions suggests a deep concern and caring for this child's arrival, which warms my heart. I wish you a beautiful birth and an intimate family experience.

I would imagine hearing the whisper of "you did well, <insert slavey nickname here>" from one's Owner is about as affirming as any chain could ever be. From this slave's feelings, those words lock tightly.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

RE: home birth in chains - 5/2/2013 12:37:47 PM

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Using FR:

I find it hard to believe that someone who has managed to give birth and raise 2 children AND be pregnant with a third even *needs* to express their submissive side. Infants are tiny doms without even knowing it. As a mother, you *have* to submit to the baby's demands.

So I'm here to say I don't get the concept at all, and the idea of actually doing it is insane in my mind. Until recently (yes I am talking decades, not minutes) many women died in childbirth. Many fetuses and newborns died with them. Why anyone would consider taking a chance on this is beyond me. When I gave birth, the actual act was miracle enough.

Just me in my dotage, YMMV

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RE: home birth in chains - 5/2/2013 1:31:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I find it hard to believe that someone who has managed to give birth and raise 2 children AND be pregnant with a third even *needs* to express their submissive side. Infants are tiny doms without even knowing it. As a mother, you *have* to submit to the baby's demands.

That's so the truth! And a little sadistic at that (I'm always getting a tiny, sinister laugh from mine everytime I scream 'ouch' from her yanking my hair).

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

RE: home birth in chains - 5/18/2013 7:23:07 AM

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I suspect it's a fantasy that reads better than it lives. As you are the dominant partner in the relationship, your first priority is the health & well being of your submissive. There are obvious dangers involved, I wouldn't allow it.

(in reply to wintermaster)

RE: home birth in chains - 5/18/2013 7:41:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cassandria
Nudity in Europe is viewed differently as well, as is evidenced by the public displays on the beaches, whereas here in Canada, it's absolutely illegal and many would view it as 'harmful' to the innocence of children.

Really? It is absolutely illegal in Canada? So then the NUDE BICYCLE RIDE which went through downtown Victoria BC Canada and was covered by all the major press somehow slipped under the radar of the police?

Actually, that made me curious so I looked up the laws on public nudity in Canada and while, in general, it's true that it's illegal it's also true that there are loopholes in that law (deliberately) which you could drive a truck through -- which is how you get to "nude bicycle rides".

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(in reply to cassandria)

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