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RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 8:56:33 AM

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They think they have this 'invisible hand' thing pat, and of course they miscite it and what it actually says, and they substantially ignore the actual stuff he says, because rather than being a ivory tower non-dynamical theorist, he used to head up your customs during our little dust up back in the day, and was rather practical.

But he was no goddamn Ayn Rander. Not even slightly.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/11/2013 8:57:01 AM >

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RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 8:59:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
The Prussian Model was eagerly instituted in all the industrializing countries of the time, especially Britain, soon thereon advocated and successfully promoted by Horace Mann in Massachusetts and then the other NE states.

Most kids were more valuable out working to support the family. The first compulsory schooling was in 1880 and only for under tens. Most of what had gone before were Church schools or Sunday Schools. The original Grammar Schools, set up in Tudor times were initially free but became fee paying.

The Prussian Model was championed by William Gladstone. He of low taxes and limited government. One reason for compulsory education was to educate the voter.

I'm not intending to pronounce judgement on all of compulsory education. As with any of other social implementations, there is good and bad about it, and opportunity to manipulate by those of benign or nefarious intent.

What I was responding to was the OP's laughable assertion that the state taking over the duties of the parents is a 'socialist' (or 'commie,' as comprehended by that sort) innovation, and something just now come upon us in any case. I was just pointing out that the current model of that concept was in fact instituted by an indisputably conservative regime.

The whole idea of taking young people's minds into the orbit of of the rulers in some fashion or another, the parents being merely the caretakers and dealing with mundane chores of upkeep, has been around for ages, long before the relatively modern Prussian Model.

But in recent history, certainly, many compulsory ed laws were indeed a backdoor way of dealing with the child labor problem which existed in all industrializing countries.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/11/2013 9:10:54 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:19:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
But he was no goddamn Ayn Rander. Not even slightly.

Well, that's why they don't read him, innit?

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(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:20:26 AM

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Right. Brill, and short.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:23:57 AM

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Which is the opposite of Rand, who is crap and long.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:35:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Absolutely not. It means heftily raising taxes and outlawing welfare for corporations and their minions.

But, redistributing back to the owners means cutting the taxes on individuals.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:40:21 AM

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The lower and middle classes, yes; perhaps, but they should pay their way as well. The weathier have had a long term reduction in taxes, as you have pointed out, more AGs in their I, and are often welfared tax shelters, deferrments, free rides, and other redistributions from the lower and middle classes.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/11/2013 9:41:29 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:43:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
The tin foil hatters see evil lurking everywhere......
And because of that,they protect us from the evil ,evil.....
Jesus,beck could make Jesus sound like a socialist......oh that`s right....Jesus WAS a socialist...

socialism - a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
I think Jesus was more about charity than socialism, but I'm glad to see you're trying to protect us from that.
Nice hat, by the way.
K.

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 2:32-35
The Apostle James also struck a couple dead who didn't sell all their possessions and give everything to be distributed equally among the early Christian socialist collective Church.

Government Distribution <> Charity
Huge Difference.

Read it again, the early church functioned as a commune where all property was held as a community. That's not just socialism that is straight up communism.

Function and Method are different, too. A 1960's "hippy" commune was quite a bit different from the Communism of the USSR, no? One was chosen, while the other was forced. And, therein lies the difference between charity and government redistribution.

Living in a commune was not charity. They are literally the basis of Marx's thinking.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:45:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If an enemy of our nation wanted to do us real harm....one way would be to dumb down our worker force,make it harder and more expencive to get an education and attack our educational system and personally attack our teachers.

Gop....gop...and gop.

Not GOP. They would follow the plan by Karl Marx, outlined in his book, The communist Manifesto. You know, like Obama IS doing, word for word, page by page.

When did Obama kill all the owner class? When did Obama seize all property? When did Obama end all social distinctions?

IOW have you ever even read the Manifesto?

(in reply to papassion)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:47:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

And, therein lies the difference between charity and government redistribution.

And since the government has redistibuted our wealth to the corporations, it is time to swing the pendulum back and redistribute back to its owners.

Completely agree, Ron. But, you do realize, that means cutting taxes, right?

Wrong. The only way to get the money out of the hands of those who gained wealth from the supply side practices of certain Presidents of the past 30+ years is to greatly increase the highest marginal rate and to end treating capital gains as anything other than income.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:49:10 AM

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Well, I want all railroad properties back too, and a few other things.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:52:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Living in a commune was not charity. They are literally the basis of Marx's thinking.

Living in a commune was a choice. Living in a commune, you chose to share everything. Communism forced it, while the communes of the 60's were freely entered into. That is the difference.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:54:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

And, therein lies the difference between charity and government redistribution.

And since the government has redistibuted our wealth to the corporations, it is time to swing the pendulum back and redistribute back to its owners.

Completely agree, Ron. But, you do realize, that means cutting taxes, right?

Wrong. The only way to get the money out of the hands of those who gained wealth from the supply side practices of certain Presidents of the past 30+ years is to greatly increase the highest marginal rate and to end treating capital gains as anything other than income.

Ron called for the end to corporate welfare and for the money to be returned to those that owned the money. The ones that owned the money are the ones that paid them in taxes. How do you get a tax dollar back to the taxpayer? Cut taxes.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 9:56:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Absolutely not. It means heftily raising taxes and outlawing welfare for corporations and their minions.

But, redistributing back to the owners means cutting the taxes on individuals.

Sort of. Look, we have an economy which is crippled because all the money's locked up in too few people who can't spend it. The folks who have that money aren't going to willingly release it again. Ron proposed specific government interventions to redistribute some of the wealth. I'm cool with the "cut taxes" thing also but then I'd ask "So how are you planning on redistributing anything?"

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 10:09:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Absolutely not. It means heftily raising taxes and outlawing welfare for corporations and their minions.

But, redistributing back to the owners means cutting the taxes on individuals.

Sort of. Look, we have an economy which is crippled because all the money's locked up in too few people who can't spend it. The folks who have that money aren't going to willingly release it again. Ron proposed specific government interventions to redistribute some of the wealth. I'm cool with the "cut taxes" thing also but then I'd ask "So how are you planning on redistributing anything?"

What does removing money from the money stream do to the value of the dollars still in the stream? That is, what happens to prices when the amount of money usable to buy stuff is reduced?

What happens when there are more dollars chasing the same number of things?

"Growing the economy" means there has to be someone willing to buy what we're making, right? It also means we have to be making something that people want.

If you want long-term, repeat customers, what do you sell? You sell consumable items. Cars are consumable, but how long do cars last? I'm thinking they last quite a bit of time, actually. My ex is driving a 13 year old car that we bought new. I'm driving an 11 year old car that was used before we bought it; it was low-mileage 2 year leased vehicle. She is getting ready to buy a new vehicle. Mine is still running well. Do we have too much vehicle production to match the demand for new cars?

Let's say we spend $1B on new roads, employing 200k people for $50k. Now, we have 200k more people with money to chase the same amount of goods. We will have inflation, right? The rest of the people who didn't get a raise or haven't had any change in their work levels just got a hit in their pocketbook because they can't buy as much as they used to now.

And, who says that a $17.7T GDP isn't higher than what we should have? Isn't increasing it going to mean more consumption, more consumption, more consumption?

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 10:24:51 AM

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Well we have been increasing it and the consumption is being eaten up by our non-recycle stuff, military, interest, HMOs., and other capitalistic structures designed to skin wallets but return nothing.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 10:27:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The tin foil hatters see evil lurking everywhere......

"Oh no, some professor had a weird idea! It must be an evil liberal conspiracy!" What?

I don't think there's any organized conspiracy. Just too many whackos (of all persuasions) in the wrong places.

A professor at the University of Southern California (USC) appears to have used a fall semester 2012 political science class to deliver sustained and angered attacks on Republicans, who he characterized as old, white, racist, and “losers.” In a 15 min. video secretly captured by USC student Tyler Talgo, political science Professor Darry Sragow also appears to endorse the illegal suppression of Republican votes. “You lose their information on the election in the mail,” he suggested when a student asked him how to keep Republicans from voting. “I mean there is lots of ways to do it [SIC].” ~Campus Reform

A professor at a public university in Texas is under investigation... According to the complaint, obtained by Campus Reform, the professor compelled students in her graphic design class to create artwork opposing firearms on campus and opposing pro-gun legislation currently pending before the Texas state legislature. The professor then used the artwork students created online to publicize an anti-gun petition entitled “MSU is anti-Concealed Carry on Campus”... The complaint adds that Yucus “did require all works to include the URL to the petition” she had created and adds that students were photographed while crafting the posters to give the illusion of youth support. ~Campus Reform

Tin foil hats should be reserved for people who always think that only those on the "other" side are wearing them.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/11/2013 10:28:03 AM >

(in reply to graceadieu)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 10:48:17 AM

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A PhD Professor at my uni told the class that Reagan had to fire Volker because he couldn't deal with the inflation.

I kid you not. She actually said that. I was tempted to ask her if she was Wendy Gramm's sister or cousin or something.

The actual fact is that Reagan held on to Volker (at the FED) for six years, however much to his constant chagrin, until he (Volker) got the mess cleaned up, whereupon Reagan then appointed Greenspan, for purpose of creating a far greater mess in service to imbecilic ideology that served Reagan's masters famously, while sticking the rest of us with a lower standard of living, which process subsequent administrations and congresses of both parties have chosen to accentuate rather than alleviate.

Still going to keep up with all this "proof" that unis are commie organizations?

Which of the different proselytizations on the cart at the uni have most found their way into the workings of the country, and done the most material harm? That's all I'm saying.

I don't think the commie professors stole those 4.5 million houses and 8+ million jobs.

OTOH, there are LOTS of good business and finance departments at all the highest ranking unis, no doubt.

We are certainly feeling the brunt of that now.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/11/2013 11:48:10 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 11:28:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Tin foil hats should be reserved for people who always think that only those on the "other" side are wearing them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Still going to keep up with all this "proof" that unis are commie organizations?

Have a hat.

K.

(in reply to Edwynn)

RE: All Your Kids Belong To Us. - 4/11/2013 11:37:41 AM

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I would never think of stealing yours.

I'm neither commie enough nor true-blue capitalist enough for the task.

(in reply to Kirata)

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