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Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 11:18:05 AM

fucktoyprincess

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When I review the most recent horrible mass violence that has occurred in this country I come up with certain patterns. Young males, most who are psychologically unstable (and either undiagnosed or not properly treated), most who feel marginalized in some way by the society they are in, and most who have relatively easy access to weaponry and weapons building know-how - that seems to be the profile. (In writing the above I am thinking of the Boston bombings, Sandy Hook school shootings, Columbine and other high school shootings, Aurora theatre shooting, - I am sure there are others that fit what I describe also.) Also, when I read the descriptions of the older brother who committed the Boston bombing he sounds like he was, at the very least, suffering from clinical depression, if not other more serious psychological issues, in addition to certainly feeling marginalized.

I really feel there is more in common with the above set of incidents than not. Disaffection can be experienced by people who grew up their whole lives here, or not. And in unstable, typically males, it often leads to violence. The above profile seems to fit whether one wants to attach the term "terrorism" to the acts or not.

This is a really open-ended statement, but I am wondering if there are any other ways we, as a society, can effectively identify the young males who are at higher risk of committing mass violence before they start to really unravel? Why do young men sometimes end up feeling marginalized? Or, is the problem of disaffected youth simply part of human history? Something that will never go away and something that can never be controlled or channelled in more positive directions? There is a certain "rebel without a cause" aspect to all of the above - and, of course, in some cases, the rebels attach themselves to a cause, but only long after they've reached a certain breaking point. In other words, when there is a cause, it seems to come late in the game - not at the beginning, they are like "rebel searching for a cause". (I'm not advocating an end to anti-terrorism efforts - I am simply suggesting there might be another way to view all of the above acts).

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 12:55:20 PM

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How would you deal with "risky" young male?

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 1:02:33 PM

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Confiscate their Marilyn Manson CDs?

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 1:06:12 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

How would you deal with "risky" young male?

That's always an interesting question, because the typical responses (cf. Columbine etc.) tend to be the sort that just end up alienating even more of the at-risk people, which may well drive more of them past the breaking point. Also, the aspect of mindcrime, always implicit in such efforts, raises the question of what kind of society we want to live in.

Make a freer and richer society for everyone, and an increasing number of people will get invested in it and stay invested.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)

RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 1:10:57 PM

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Nobody's going to do that, Aswad: John Ruskin was a lefty, and so obviously didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 1:32:56 PM

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My issue is that so many young men are unstable...merely age and hormons makes them so. Yet, so many don't do something horrifying as such. I remember a number of isolated, unstable males in high school, and not a one of them went on a killing spree.

I just don't like the notion that we might prance down the road of medicating, jailing or targeting a group of people for minority action within that group. Sure they are more likely to be the ones engaging in that behavior, but individual within that group are still unlikely to engage in that behabvior.

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 2:10:55 PM

tj444

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some of the killers were created by being bullied at school, more can be done by the schools by enforcing a zero tollerance for that behaviour..

but apart from that, there will always be some killers in every country in every society... there are psychopaths and those can not be easily identified or stopped (until after they have acted and hurt/killed someone)..

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 3:20:47 PM

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quote:

This is a really open-ended statement, but I am wondering if there are any other ways we, as a society, can effectively identify the young males who are at higher risk of committing mass violence before they start to really unravel? Why do young men sometimes end up feeling marginalized? Or, is the problem of disaffected youth simply part of human history? Something that will never go away and something that can never be controlled or channelled in more positive directions? There is a certain "rebel without a cause" aspect to all of the above - and, of course, in some cases, the rebels attach themselves to a cause, but only long after they've reached a certain breaking point. In other words, when there is a cause, it seems to come late in the game - not at the beginning, they are like "rebel searching for a cause". (I'm not advocating an end to anti-terrorism efforts - I am simply suggesting there might be another way to view all of the above acts).

Very insightful, ftp. The fact such violence is hardly ever found in young women leads me to suspect it is a nature/nurture characteristic. We do quite a lot to channel male aggression into sports and other forms of competition. Working in the Chicago commodities pits comes to mind. Inviting them to join the Military as well. Public schooling is all about channeling aggression away from violence. Some simply are beyond reach.

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 4:15:32 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

How would you deal with "risky" young male?

That's always an interesting question, because the typical responses (cf. Columbine etc.) tend to be the sort that just end up alienating even more of the at-risk people, which may well drive more of them past the breaking point. Also, the aspect of mindcrime, always implicit in such efforts, raises the question of what kind of society we want to live in.

Make a freer and richer society for everyone, and an increasing number of people will get invested in it and stay invested.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

I think this has to be part of it. Targeting people because we think they might commit a crime is, agreed, probably not a wise strategy. But let me ask you this. Beyond creating a freer and richer society, are there other specific things we might do to make more people feel invested and stay invested in society? I feel that trying to help those who feel marginalized come back into the fold of society is important. I'm wondering if people have ideas of how to achieve that (or alternatively, how to eliminate/reduce the things that make people feel marginalized to begin with?) Thinking out loud here...

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 4:20:17 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

some of the killers were created by being bullied at school, more can be done by the schools by enforcing a zero tollerance for that behaviour..

but apart from that, there will always be some killers in every country in every society... there are psychopaths and those can not be easily identified or stopped (until after they have acted and hurt/killed someone)..

Yes I agree about the bulllying - more needs to be done about this issue.

And I also agree that at some level, we might just have to accept that some young males are periodically going to go off the deep end - with some catastrophe that affects others. Sometimes we see it coming; sometimes we don't.

But let's focus on the ones we see coming for a moment. I recall someone who I went to elementary school with who ended up in jail as a young adult for a violent crime (but not mass violence). No one I went to school with was surprised by this. No one. Seems to me, if we felt this way as children, then surely the adults around us must have seen warning signs, too? I often wonder if some intervention earlier would have prevented him from going down the path he went down. It seemed clear to many that something was not right. Harder to define is what is the appropriate intervention.

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 4:49:40 PM

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Dont be under the impression this kind of stuff is just carried out by young men.

In many of the recent cases in the Uk the men involved have been way older, both in terror plots and mass killings.

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:00:44 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Dont be under the impression this kind of stuff is just carried out by young men.

In many of the recent cases in the Uk the men involved have been way older, both in terror plots and mass killings.

I don't disagree with your facts, but in the U.S., the specific incidents that I cited, were all committed by younger men (by the way, I never defined that term, and so I'm defining it now, and I would actually define young man as anyone under the age of 30).

Even 9/11 - when I go through the ages of the men involved, I think only one was over the age of 30, with most being in their early 20s.

And of course there is growing research that the critical parts of the brain involved in decision-making are not fully developed until years later at age 25 or so (for people in general, so I would actually surmise that the age is even slightly later for males).

So I would still argue that "young male" is a category that is more dangerous than "older male" for a variety of reasons particularly rooted in brain development.

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:03:54 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Beyond creating a freer and richer society, are there other specific things we might do to make more people feel invested and stay invested in society?

Society investing in people tends to be very effective.

We didn't have any terrorism in Norway until we started mass-importing Sunnis from war torn countries and the like for humanitarian reasons (and, although it probably hasn't been in the media over there, we've foiled plenty of terrorist plots from those already). Well, except for Israel, of course. They paid for it, though. There was also one attempt by Libya, through the radical left here, but the agent backed out when he realized it would kill lots of innocent bystanders. Which goes back to being invested in a society that invests in you.

quote:

I'm wondering if people have ideas of how to achieve that (or alternatively, how to eliminate/reduce the things that make people feel marginalized to begin with?)

Enable them to achieve happiness and meaningful lives for themselves. Or, failing that, make them feel like society cares about them, that there actually is a society- in a meaningful sense- there for them to be a part of. Investing in them is one way to do this. Otherwise, you're left with other societies (e.g. subcultures) giving them a place to belong, which may be a society that is at odds with the one you'd like them to be a part of.

Not interfering needlessly in their lives is another way; i.e. more freedom.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:06:17 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Dont be under the impression this kind of stuff is just carried out by young men.

Or just men. I'm sure you're as familiar with female terrorism as I am.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:10:41 PM

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Indeed Aswad but in the main it tends to be men.

Anyhow, according to FTP, I am now past it.

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:19:35 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Very insightful, ftp. The fact such violence is hardly ever found in young women leads me to suspect it is a nature/nurture characteristic. We do quite a lot to channel male aggression into sports and other forms of competition. Working in the Chicago commodities pits comes to mind. Inviting them to join the Military as well. Public schooling is all about channeling aggression away from violence. Some simply are beyond reach.

It is interesting to note that the older brother in the Boston bombings was involved in boxing (until something happened to derail him in that). So the combination of thwarted ambition, unemployment, and no other place to put his aggression definitely contributed to the risks here.

Perhaps communities (schools, places of worship, etc.) would be wise to think about specific ways to channel male testosterone in positive ways. There is the obvious sports, military, etc., but are there "non-violent" or "less-violent" ways to channel this energy? What makes young men feel purposeful? (Enquiring female minds want to know.....)

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:20:36 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Indeed Aswad but in the main it tends to be men.

Anyhow, according to FTP, I am now past it.

I hate to say it Politesub, but something tells me you have always been low risk......

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:23:38 PM

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Ouch.................

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:37:18 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ouch.................

But then again, who knows. Self-described as "polite", well that's probably already a warning sign.....

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RE: Young Men and Mass Violence - 4/22/2013 5:51:40 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Perhaps communities (schools, places of worship, etc.) would be wise to think about specific ways to channel male testosterone in positive ways.

A good starting point would be to shelve the idea that it's "male testosterone" alongside the "little wife that's irrational because of her period" idea. I personally find it somewhat irritating to have maleness pegged as the reason for something, particularly when we're seeing (at least here in Norway) that women are increasingly catching up to men in terms of violent behavior, now that they're becoming more equal. Women are just easier to oppress, suppress or restrain, overall. Once that cork is pulled, they start looking a lot like men.

quote:

There is the obvious sports, military, etc., but are there "non-violent" or "less-violent" ways to channel this energy?

Violence isn't a problem. Violently lashing out at random is a problem. Ghandi was a master of violence. He used it like a scalpel. It didn't even need to culminate in the actual deed itself in order to get the job done. Cecilie Brækhus is effective at violence. Cimbrian women were very effective at it, though they focused on archery first (according to data from the Statistics and Census Bureau of Norway, women tend to perceive risk as greater than it is, relative to men, and try a lot harder to avoid it; this at a statistical level, akin to the statistical preponderance of men in convictions of violence).

quote:

What makes young men feel purposeful?

Having a purpose, for instance. Or some measure of control of your own destiny and/or life.

Hunt/conquer/kill and hunt/conquer/keep are popular masculine approaches, both which you'll note were quite absent from the Boston attacks. Indeed, by traditional standards of masculinity, we're talking about cowardice here, not male behavior. In a less gender-egalitarian culture, one might say they were effeminate in their actions, but I wouldn't say it myself. They do, however, fall short of measuring up to my standards of what a man is. Perhaps making them men is a good solution?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

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