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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:17:35 AM

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I'm not asking Steven to out any rape victims to anyone. I advised him that, were I in a similar situation, I would consider making an anonymous phonecall to the police saying of my suspicions of the individual in question and that his victims appeared unwilling to go the police.

To be loathe is to absolutely hate or despise the idea of something. It seems an appropriate verb to use in this context. People traumatised by an experience often find the experiecnce of talking to someone professional about it overwhelming.

I'm not asking someone to go to the police on rumour. I made my position on this very clear. I have said numerous times now that noone has any business acting on rumour. I then went on to ask Steven if he had a genuine belief about the male in question. I'm not interested in discussing where he formed the belief on a public forum. Counselling is entirely reasonable.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:24:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

To be loathe is to absolutely hate or despise the idea of something. It seems an appropriate verb to use in this context. People traumatised by an experience often find the experiecnce of talking to someone professional about it overwhelming.

Being overwhelmed, or fearful, or hesitant, or in shock, or shut down, or unable, is NOT the same as "hating or despising an idea".

If you don't do something because you don't want to do it, because you "hate or despise the idea of doing it", you're making a CHOICE. People who are UNABLE to do something out of trauma do not make a choice.

Do you have issues with using the English language to convey actual meaning according to definitions, instead of what ever you happen to want a word to mean in any given context?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

I'm not asking someone to go to the police on rumour. I made my position on this very clear. I have said numerous times now that noone has any business acting on rumour. I then went on to ask Steven if he had a genuine belief about the male in question. I'm not interested in discussing where he formed the belief on a public forum. Counselling is entirely reasonable.

If Steven has a "genuine belief" he's acting on rumor, or at best hearsay. He wasn't there, he doesn't have the facts, he has no way to have a "genuine belief" that this did or did not happen, LEST the guy in question admitted to him that he did.

ANY believe Steven has about this matter is strictly based on hearsay, unless he's heard the guy himself admit to rape.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:33:19 AM

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quote:

If this man is a serial rapist for all anyone knows the police are already searching for him and your tip might be a part of the puzzle that eventually deals with him.

Do you not understand that having an "honest belief" is completely invalid as "evidence?" All DS has is heresay because he wasn't there. Yet you think going on and on about reporting it if you "honestly believe" something isn't condemning someone on heresay.

Honestly, I realize you aren't from the US, but here, an "honest belief" means nothing legally unless you have FACTS.

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:35:29 AM

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You're acting bizarrely hostile Ishtar. Without getting bogged down to much into semantics someone being traumatised doesn't preclude choice. People can overcome fear, being hesitant or in shock. Sometimes they can't. Describing someone as being loathe to face such an ordeal seems entirely reasonable. Do you have issues with debating a subject without becoming incredibly boorish?

Why would Steven be acting on heresy if he had a genuine belief? Particuarly when in my opening post I said that acting on rumour was unacceptable. I don't know where Steven got his belief from I simply asked him if he had it. I don't know what Steven knows about the individual in question, his interations with him e.t.c and more importantly I have no intention of trying to elicit that information on a public forum. For about the seventh time the ''community'' has no responsibility to ''police'' itself. If however someeone has a credible belief that someone has raped five women I believe informing the police is the best course of action. Though once again I stress that I appreciate not everyone will feel the same way.

I've answered everyone of your questions Ishtar and replied to some of your assumptions [outing rape victims for example] and until this post where i've called your behaviour boorish i've done so politely. I've no idea why you're being so belligerant but there's no need.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:39:08 AM

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Lafayette I don't know whay I have to keep repeating myself. In my first post to Steven and subsequently in over half a dozen more i've stated baldly that acting on rumour is a deplorable way to behave. I then asked Steven if irrespective of that he believed the man was guilty of what he was accused of. Given that I had just stated that fueling allegations based on rumour was completely irresponsible I was under the impression that it was implicit in the question that the belief would constitute more than third hand [at best] rumour.

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:41:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

You're acting bizarrely hostile Ishtar. Without getting bogged down to much into semantics someone being traumatised doesn't preclude choice. People can overcome fear, being hesitant or in shock. Sometimes they can't. Describing someone as being loathe to face such an ordeal seems entirely reasonable. Do you have issues with debating a subject without becoming incredibly boorish?

Why would Steven be acting on heresy if he had a genuine belief? Particuarly when in my opening post I said that acting on rumour was unacceptable. I don't know where Steven got his belief from I simply asked him if he had it. I don't know what Steven knows about the individual in question, his interations with him e.t.c and more importantly I have no intention of trying to elicit that information on a public forum. For about the seventh time the ''community'' has no responsibility to ''police'' itself. If however someeone has a credible belief that someone has raped five women I believe informing the police is the best course of action. Though once again I stress that I appreciate not everyone will feel the same way.

I've answered everyone of your questions Ishtar and replied to some of your assumptions [outing rape victims for example] and until this post where i've called your behaviour boorish i've done so politely. I've no idea why you're being so belligerant but there's no need.

Clarification:

I have written posts from three women alleging rape, and another post alleging that two others are known but choose to remain anonymous.

I have the evidence that the guy's exes invariably unfriend him when they break up.

This evidence is more than sufficient for me to consider him a poor choice for any woman looking for a match. It is enough for me to say his reputation is horrible. It is not enough for legal action. It is far easier to have one's reputation destroyed than to be convicted in a court of law. Entirely fair, since the consequences are smaller.

The community DOES police itself. Several party owners will bar people they have heard bad things about, or who give off creepy vibes to them.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:46:15 AM

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Steven has not once given an indication he has factual information on the alleged events. The only thing he seems to have first hand knowledge of is the guy's resignation from the mentoring program where he also states he is innocent.

I'm really beginning to wonder if you understand what "heresay" really is. It's glaringly obvious that you don't grasp that "honest belief" has no basis in fact.

Further, falsely accusing someone of a crime here can also become a crime in and of itself.

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:52:43 AM

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ok so I only read the original post here, This sounds like a sticky situation..If he is indeed guilty of what he accused of within the community then I feel he should not be allowed into the functions even as a guest. just my 2cents

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:54:32 AM

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''Steven has not once given an indication he has factual information on the alleged events.'' And if that's the case then he'd be acting on rumour which I, for the eighth time am stating is an entirely reprehensible idea. An honest belief ,nce rumour and heresy has been discounted, as it was in my first and all subsequent posts I had hoped implied Stephen had something reasonably hard on which to base his suspicions. An honest belief doesn't have to be correct to protect one from a defamation suit.

In the post above Steven is saying, which is more than I wished to know, that three women have written they have been raped by this man. If these are simply posts from women he doesn't know I would advise steering well clear. If they are friends of his, which he trusts, and they are writing to him to tell him they have been raped I think his position would be far more difficult. In that case one might have to weigh up the harm in getting the police involved against the possible much greater harm in not doing so. An extremely unpleasant situation to be in.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:54:32 AM

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Honestly Steven, I think the groups "policing" themselves is a reasonable response. Regardless of whether complaints about someone are proven true or not, multiple complaints about someone affects the group's attendance. Sadly, that may mean that sometimes someone who is innocent may find themselves "locked out" of certain places. However, even when multiple allegations may not be entirely true, there is always some basis of fact behind them. People should want to protect their reputations, and if they get involved in activities that sully those reputations, they have no one but themselves to blame for the fallout.

The actions you have ultimately decided to take, ie. continuing to educate newbies on various safety issues, and being honest when asked is the best course of action. While I understand that you and your girl enjoy the events put on by this group, I do think it would be in your best interest to seek out other events. Perhaps over time, the scuttlebutt going on at this group will resolve itself and you can return. In the meantime, you really shouldn't give yourself the headache and stress of dealing with this drama.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 12:02:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

''Steven has not once given an indication he has factual information on the alleged events.'' And if that's the case then he'd be acting on rumour which I, for the eighth time am stating is an entirely reprehensible idea. An honest belief ,nce rumour and heresy has been discounted, as it was in my first and all subsequent posts I had hoped implied Stephen had something reasonably hard on which to base his suspicions. An honest belief doesn't have to be correct to protect one from a defamation suit.

In the post above Steven is saying, which is more than I wished to know, that three women have written they have been raped by this man. If these are simply posts from women he doesn't know I would advise steering well clear. If they are friends of his, which he trusts, and they are writing to him to tell him they have been raped I think his position would be far more difficult. In that case one might have to weigh up the harm in getting the police involved against the possible much greater harm in not doing so. An extremely unpleasant situation to be in.

First off, your ability to communicate clearly is questionable at best. If it weren't Ishtar and I would not be drawing the exact same conclusions regarding your posts. Of course this is actually also a very good example of how drawing conclusions from posts to be "facts" is a bad idea.

Even if Steven has had written communication from these women telling him they were raped, he is not in law enforcement. He is an engineer. In other words, he has neither the necessary knowledge, training or ability to take this to law enforcement as fact. It would be different had the accused wrote to him and told him what occurred, since then he would be in the position of receiving knowledge from the perpetrator of a crime that the crime occurred. At this point, I'm not confident you can understand the difference, but the difference is rather large.

If these women spoke to him directly, he certainly, as a caring and compassionate human being should encourage the women to contact the police, and offer his continued emotional support as they go through the process. However, as he has no direct knowledge that a crime has been committed, and indeed has not been a direct witness, his contacting the police on rumor is, and will never be, a reasonable action for him to take.

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 12:11:36 PM

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You haven't explained why it's questionable at best beyond repeatedly asserting that i'm advocating acting soley on rumour despite nearly a dozen posts baldaly stating the contrary. I'd suggest that along with your hostile demeanour that it is your ability to comprehend that is in question rather than my own powers of communication.

He doesn't have to take it to law enforcement as fact. This is the third time I have said that it is not within the moral or practical remit of the community to investigate such matters. However depending on the nature of the writing you could indeed take that to law enforcement. The idea that noone can engage law enforcement witthout knowing whether what they are saying is cast iron proof of guilt is risible, demonstrable nonsense, even more so in an anonymous setting. In this case the ''fact''being brought to their attention would be the written claims of three women to have been rape victims. Though as I have already said there are all kinds of moral difficulties, if that is the bedrock on which the suspicion is granted, in doing so.

I don't know why you felt the need to engage with me in the manner you have done but again I would posit that it's that very hostility that has made it difficult to communicate. As I said earlier there's no reason or need for it.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 12:50:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I wouldn't attend, period. And, I would be very fucking vocal to others as to exactly why I would not attend. I won't be supportive of people or organizations that support activities I view as illegal, wrong, immoral, etc.. I also wouldn't want to count among my friends anyone that would.

That's where I'm at too. Regardless of anything else, the hostess of the event said this:

quote:

I spoke candidly to him about what I believe to be serious errors in judgment on his part

I prefer not to knowingly attend events where someone who is known to have "serious errors in judgement" will be welcomed and protected.

I vote with my feet and my wallet.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 1:36:21 PM

lizi

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DS, people mostly watch what we do over what we say. If you continue to attend these events, be prepared that others will think you endorse having this man there. Which is fine, if you do in fact endorse it. What really matters though is not what others think, but how you feel about it for yourself and your closest loved ones. For myself, I think I would choose to distance myself from anything that I felt was dangerous to others, too much drama, or simply unsavory, because I am me for the opinions that I keep, and for the actions that I take. Therefore I would keep opinions and take actions that reflected my view on things.

If I do something, then I endorse it. My guideline is excuses....if I ever need to excuse myself at some point, then I needed to make a better choice before doing that thing that needed an excuse. If someone were to ask me why I knowingly attended events where something bothered me and seemed negative, and I answered that I really wanted to avail myself of a fun evening- well, that's an excuse. In my life I don't do excuses as much as possible. A simple concept, yet not fun at times. If that same concept cuts down on my fun...so be it, I suck it up in order to be a person that I can live with. In the end, my own integrity means more to me than fun; and I'm not actively taking up any action against this man...just saying I'm not participating till things become more clear.

I do believe that the women in question here should be protecting themselves and taking responsibility for their actions. I think that the hostess is forcing people's hands, and I think that's BS. I think that the man in question seems to have some shady practices in his personal life, so much so that women who allied themselves with him are burning bridges rather than face him again- that says a lot. There is a lot of other things that I agree with or don't agree with, but the overarching principal for me is that I don't like being told what to do (the hostess), and I don't endorse things by participating in them if I don't agree with them.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 1:51:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

You haven't explained why it's questionable at best beyond repeatedly asserting that i'm advocating acting soley on rumour despite nearly a dozen posts baldaly stating the contrary. I'd suggest that along with your hostile demeanour that it is your ability to comprehend that is in question rather than my own powers of communication.

He doesn't have to take it to law enforcement as fact. This is the third time I have said that it is not within the moral or practical remit of the community to investigate such matters. However depending on the nature of the writing you could indeed take that to law enforcement. The idea that noone can engage law enforcement witthout knowing whether what they are saying is cast iron proof of guilt is risible, demonstrable nonsense, even more so in an anonymous setting. In this case the ''fact''being brought to their attention would be the written claims of three women to have been rape victims. Though as I have already said there are all kinds of moral difficulties, if that is the bedrock on which the suspicion is granted, in doing so.

I don't know why you felt the need to engage with me in the manner you have done but again I would posit that it's that very hostility that has made it difficult to communicate. As I said earlier there's no reason or need for it.

Actually I have explained it repeatedly.

So you propose he take a rumor to the police, with copies of these women's writings. These women, for whatever reason, have opted not to file charges. So if he takes their writings to the police as "evidence" of his suspicions, do you not believe the police would want to know their names (something they obviously chose not to have the police aware of)? So now, not only would DS be making accusations against someone without having any first hand knowledge or real facts, but he is now opening these women up to the police, which the women have chosen not to do. Writings to someone else are not "fact." This isn't a television drama, this is real life.

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 2:02:46 PM

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FR

Point of information:

Is it three, five, twelve, or a different number of women who've said that they've been raped by this man?

I'm just interested in the numbers, that's all. They seem to vary according to the different accounts.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 2:07:21 PM

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No, no you haven't you've simply aggresively misrepresented my posts.

I don't know why you feel the need to summarise what is written down in plain English...particuarly when you can't do it even with said English being on the page for you to look at. I advised Steven that if he had belief not based on simple rumour to go to the police with his misgivings. Once Steven clarified his position with what evidence he had for his feelings I said depending on what his relationship with these women was, whether he believed them trustworthy, and if the writing was addressed to him telling him that they had been raped ,that he would have to weigh the possible harm in going to the police with the possible harm not doing so might cause An extremely unpleasant position to be in.

If he chose to go the police there are numerous optiuons for how much information he would be willing to divulge. Incidentally three seperate woman writing to tell someone they have been raped is ample cause to begin at leat a preliminary investigation. Though as i've said numerous times it places one in a very uncomfortable moral quandary if you choose to reveal the names of the victim's to try and prevent future one's being raped. Or at the very least he could anonymously describe the situation, a very low risk option though one unlikely to be particuarly effective.

Writings to someone else can be fact and they can be drivel. It is not up to individuals to decide which but law enforcement. Again the idea that one can only bring cast iron ''facts'' demonstrating guilt beyond reasonable doubt to the police is palpable nonsense. You are quite right this isn't television I would suggest not using C.S.I. and it's ghastly derivatives as a compass for what constitutes ''evidence''

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 2:18:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
People to intimidated and traumatized to speak about a rape don't tell their friends, their community, and post stuff about it online.

What makes you believe this? It's pretty counterintuitive to me, I have to say.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 2:21:12 PM

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Peon apprently it's three women who've written it down and the o.p. has seen this and two others who have said nothing at all. At least that's how I understand it, though that might not be right.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 2:40:15 PM

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Steven,

As a matter of interest, why did you bring this matter to this board? It's just that, from experience, I'd know better than to bring a difficult matter of judgment here and I'd assume you would, too. You're no doubt looking for a way to feel comfortable in the knowledge that a) more women won't get abused or even raped b) that this man won't get impugned if he's actually innocent and c) you can carry on frequenting this club in good conscience.

That requires finesse. You won't get that here. This site does not *do* finesse. What it mostly does is simple, straightforward moral judgments, coupled with cod-psychological observations (e.g. 'clearly you're just jealous of his success') couched as though they're thoughts that had never crossed your mind before.

Here, it's quite plain that you can choose from the simple options of a) he is bad, warn the women; b) the women are bad and he's innocent till proven guilty or c) *you* are bad for impugning this poor lamb of a chap without tungsten-hard evidence. You knew all this already. You want balance? Go away from the loud and pointless noise, is my advice. Go away from this thread.

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(in reply to DarkSteven)

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